Dont-Be-Haten Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 What chapter tactics would you use if you used the SM book? I am planning on using the BA codex, but what would you use? I would look at either the imperial fists or black Templars, depending on how you view the fluff,in terms of how lamenters were played on the table top. Just because they are stubborn and hard nosed. They will fight to the bitter end. Or go crazy behind devastating casualties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 The old Index Astartes article(like, very old) claimed that the Lamenters were born in the Cursed Founding, where peeps thought it a good idea to put Blood Angels' geneseed and another into the blender and see how it tastes. The Lamenters were not afflicted by any flaw, they were just terribly unlucky. The way the article was written it sounded like slapstick to me...coming back weakened from purging a system of heretics, run into a hive-fleet splinter and getting their behinds handed to them again. That article also stated that their 'flaw' was an aura of sadness that made their enemies feel pity for the fate the Lamenters had fallen to. Basically the article said they whine so hard even Chaos Marines can feel it and shed a tear drop of pure acid 'cause life's been so hard on the Lamenters. Not the kind of fluff you'd want for the Sons of Sanguinius. Now if I only could find the article, I'm mostly recalling all this from memory. Snorri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardsman1275 Posted December 16, 2015 Author Share Posted December 16, 2015 that is worse than spontaneously combusting like the fire hawks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudan Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 The Cursed founding stuff is pretty well known; that pity stuff is a mischaracterization. The passive-aggressiveness from a few people in this thread is beyond weird! I'm wondering how hard I'd have to read through other sub-forums to find examples of people saying canonical chapters have no place as a successor to their parent chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Keep it civil folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardsman1275 Posted December 16, 2015 Author Share Posted December 16, 2015 Why do people seem to hate the Lamenters so much? They are not like the other Blood Angels successor chapters but that is why I like them. Honestly they are the only BA successor chapter that is really different than the Blood Angels. They have fluff that shows a space marine chapter that is not over the top awesome, they have tried to be successful and failed, but they always come back for another go. That is more impressive than winning every battle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sockwithaticket Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 The old Index Astartes article(like, very old) claimed that the Lamenters were born in the Cursed Founding, where peeps thought it a good idea to put Blood Angels' geneseed and another into the blender and see how it tastes. The Lamenters were not afflicted by any flaw, they were just terribly unlucky. The way the article was written it sounded like slapstick to me...coming back weakened from purging a system of heretics, run into a hive-fleet splinter and getting their behinds handed to them again. That article also stated that their 'flaw' was an aura of sadness that made their enemies feel pity for the fate the Lamenters had fallen to. Basically the article said they whine so hard even Chaos Marines can feel it and shed a tear drop of pure acid 'cause life's been so hard on the Lamenters. Not the kind of fluff you'd want for the Sons of Sanguinius. Now if I only could find the article, I'm mostly recalling all this from memory. Snorri I dimly remember that same article and your summary feels like it's distilled the article's essence well. It certainly wasn't a particularly favourable portrayal. I quite like the Lamenters, but then I have a soft spot for all the Sons of Sanguinius bar the Johnny-come-lately's inserted into the new codex. They're all a bit different from each other and the parent chapter. I even quite like that some of them run a-foul of the Imperium, yet still fight for it and the souls it contains (Knights of Blood, Lamenters), it speaks to a noble character behind the occasional (or not so occasional) outbursts of savagery that cannot be diminished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LutherMax Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 I like Lamenters. Partly because they have interesting heraldry - and yellow makes a nice difference sometimes - and partly because they're so rare (both in fluff and hobby). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjorn Firewalker Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 The Cursed founding stuff is pretty well known; that pity stuff is a mischaracterization. The passive-aggressiveness from a few people in this thread is beyond weird! I'm wondering how hard I'd have to read through other sub-forums to find examples of people saying canonical chapters have no place as a successor to their parent chapter. The passive-aggressiveness does not come from us, but from Games Workshop itself. If we misinterpret things, it's on us; but if the original creator (Games Workshop) EPIC FAILed to clarify self-contradictory plot threads, then it's on them. For comparison, see how many people consider the United Federation of Planets from 'Star Trek', to have a Communist government; it's not the viewers' fault, but Gene Roddenberry's, because he frequently shoehorned ideals the Communists shared (money no longer in use, profit and the acquisition of wealth no longer motivating people), into his own shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjorn Firewalker Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Why do people seem to hate the Lamenters so much? They are not like the other Blood Angels successor chapters but that is why I like them. Honestly they are the only BA successor chapter that is really different than the Blood Angels. They have fluff that shows a space marine chapter that is not over the top awesome, they have tried to be successful and failed, but they always come back for another go. That is more impressive than winning every battle The problem is NOT the fact the Lamenters lose some battles; the problem is the fact the Lamenters NEVER WIN ANY BATTLES, in Games Workshop's own portrayals of the Chapter. If Games Workshop wants more people to like the Lamenters, they should say, "The Lamenters defeated [insert enemy of your choice, here], saving [insert planet of your choice, here] and the [insert something the Imperium would value, here] it held, but at tragic cost to themselves. Rather than waste time mourning their losses, the Chapter recovered the gene-seed of their fallen and then left the planet, for their aid was needed elsewhere." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune_Priest_Rhapsody Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 I think the tales told of the Lamenters are those that inspire. Constant underdogs, misunderstood, and fighting within a system that shuns them. What's not too like??!! For me those things are the draw to the army. The main reason I chose to play them is the numerous accounts of them standing up for the imperium, only to have the unluckiest outcome possible happen to them in return. I think their fluff is an acquired taste. No, not everyone want's to play the losing team, but some of us do!! I also think maybe these tales appeal to those who are a little more on the story side of the spectrum. For those we cherish, we die in Glory!! End of Line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 The problem is NOT the fact the Lamenters lose some battles; the problem is the fact the Lamenters NEVER WIN ANY BATTLES Seriously, that is not their background. Go read it, they win plenty. This is not to say however that the Lamenters have ever been anything but effective in battle – far from it and their service record is, at least on its surface, an enviable one. It is rather that time and again their successes seem to have been marred in some way by unintended consequence or sudden unforeseen loss, and on more than one occasion they have found themselves simply wrong-footed by the tide of wider events. They're Tate Donovan in Memphis Belle, shooting down a German fighter only to see it crash into a bomber. Pyrrhic victories and disastrous unforeseen consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodemus Doloroso Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 My memory of the IA article in question is a bit different. I respectfully disagree with Snorri and sockwithaticket's characterization of it. I have the issue with that article st home as I keep is close to hand (ish) for inspiration for my Angels Sorrowful. I'll go read it tonight or tomorrow to verify my memory but I've read that article several times within the last few years so I think it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 My recollection was also that they still achieved mighty victories, though often with unforseen poor outcomes, and occasional horrendous losses/bad luck. They are still marines, and still no joke if an enemy came up against them, they just had bad luck. To be honest - it was probably a Lamentor who shot Ghazgukul Thrakka in the head but failed to kill him when he was still a lowly ork boy, thus causing the creation of the greatest Ork warlord since the Great Crusade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudan Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Back on topic: The Lamenters, and probably other successors, have been left out of previous codexes before the most recent. The 1996 and 1998 publications both fail to mention the Lamenters, despite the chapter existing in previously published fluff. So the absence of the chapter in the 2014 codex, while a pretty big disappointment (at least for me), it isn't all that shocking, nor is it a strong signal that GW is somehow getting rid of the chapter I had some vague, unsubstantiated hope of a Blood Angels successor supplement, or a supplement covering the naughty-but-not-Chaos chapters. Or in this world of eEverything, something specific to the chapter, but only digitally published. Now we know that the Blood Angels player-family doesn't even get FAQs to C:BA. I dared to dream big! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardsman1275 Posted December 16, 2015 Author Share Posted December 16, 2015 maybe we will get one after the DA get theirs (an FAQ I mean) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 My memory of the IA article in question is a bit different. I respectfully disagree with Snorri and sockwithaticket's characterization of it. I have the issue with that article st home as I keep is close to hand (ish) for inspiration for my Angels Sorrowful. I'll go read it tonight or tomorrow to verify my memory but I've read that article several times within the last few years so I think it is. As I said, I was recalling this from memory, but I don't know if that article was ever in print or if it was only on the old(and so much better) GW homepage, that's where I read it over and over because of my rising interest in all things 40k. There were these short bits of fluff for the established chapters and their successors, which was rare since the Blood Angels 'codex' at the time didn't give much information about a lot of stuff in any case. If you can find the article, we can figure this all out! But still, as far as I recall it, it wasn't written from a positive point of view, that article. Could've been that this was also an excerpt from the cursed founding one, but I'm not sure in that regard. Snorri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Caine 24th Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 I love the Lamenters. I always thought they'd be a great alternative to Imperial Fists. Yellow is great to showcase weathering techniques. But, I see now that it's been many years since I last read their fluff and timelines have moved on a bit. It looks like 300 or so remain. I guess from what I remember I always hoped/imagined the 5 or 6 of them left made it out of the path of the hive fleet and joined the last stand in the Baal system with Dante as the clock strikes midnight on the 41st millennium (like an Eisenstien-style battered frigate coming in). In some ways the chapter seems to capture sadness as an emotion not commonly expressed in 40k. I suppose I don't think of them as losers but rather as personifying the ennui in Dante's eyes as he looks out the battlebarge window contemplating the meaning of 1000 years of ceaseless war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjorn Firewalker Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 I love the Lamenters. I always thought they'd be a great alternative to Imperial Fists. Yellow is great to showcase weathering techniques. But, I see now that it's been many years since I last read their fluff and timelines have moved on a bit. It looks like 300 or so remain. I guess from what I remember I always hoped/imagined the 5 or 6 of them left made it out of the path of the hive fleet and joined the last stand in the Baal system with Dante as the clock strikes midnight on the 41st millennium (like an Eisenstien-style battered frigate coming in). In some ways the chapter seems to capture sadness as an emotion not commonly expressed in 40k. I suppose I don't think of them as losers but rather as personifying the ennui in Dante's eyes as he looks out the battlebarge window contemplating the meaning of 1000 years of ceaseless war. Ennui is NEVER a good emotion to have in the eyes of a character in drama. Ennui means "I don't give a damn if I live or die, if I win or lose. None of this- none of us matter in the end." If your own PROTAGONIST expresses this emotion in your own stories, it may spread to your readers, making them lose interest- and if 1d4chan is accurate, Games Workshop itself is spreading ennui. As for your idea the Lamenters join the "last stand in the Baal System," I agree it will be an awesome thing to see, but only if COMPETENTLY WRITTEN. Let the Lamenters be remembered for their courage and their self-sacrifice, NOT simply as "unlucky ups." When the battle ends, either let the Lamenters all die WITH DIGNITY, or let the survivors rebuild, the way the Celestial Lions were allowed to rebuild at the end of 'Blood and Fire' (Aaron Dembski-Bowden's novella)- don't let Games Workshop tease us with a pointlessly uncertain ending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bukimimaru Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Well, thats just like... your opinion man. I prefer my fluff a little less serious myself, but the Lamenters have an awesome colour scheme and seem to be quite popular (if a little under represented) here in the BA forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Raul Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 The lamenters are absolutely a C:BA successor. What is more Sanguinus than knowing you'll probably be smashed but still stepping up when its your turn? And they take more than a few with them too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SM1981 Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 I've heard the induction ceremonies that their novitiates undertake are completed to chants distilled down entirely from old RadioHead lyrics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 The lamenters are absolutely a C:BA successor. What is more Sanguinus than knowing you'll probably be smashed but still stepping up when its your turn? And they take more than a few with them too. Preach it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodemus Doloroso Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Well, of course now I can't find that late 90s issue of White Dwarf with the IA article about the cursed founding in it ... I reorganized my man cave a couples months ago and remember moving my old White Dwarfs to a temporary storage space and now can't remember where that was (not where I thought). I'll have to keep looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Lamenters are a successor but different. In color, in organization, in mood. And thats a good thing. Black Templars and Crimson Fists make Imperial Fists more interesting. I wiah there was even more variety to our successors than the original dudes who are furious, sucessors who are extra furious and angsty, successors who are secretive and furious,successors who are furious cannibals and successors who are so furious that they are kind of renegades.. We need imaginative and cool successors we already have enough carbon copies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.