Veterans vs Stormtroopers

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

With Vultures?

Yes. I don't know why, but battlescribe is programmed to disallow more than one Vulture per army. I've tried using multiple detachments, and it doesn't like it at all. However with Elysians it allows multiples. It might just be a bug with the program, but it seems to pretty consistently hate it. Is there a one per detachment rule? I know there is with the Armored Battle Group list from IA2, but that's a specific thing.

 

edit: I looked in the catalog file, and I found the problem. The error I get is not related to the number of vultures I try to put in the list, rather the number of selections of the weapons is locked to the roster. So it spits an error if I try to take 2 vultures, because it doesn't like that there are two entries with the same weapons options. It wants to treat both entries as a single entry. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Sorry for the threadomancy, if it is. I keep coming back to this, and really the big question is, crunch wise, which is better, the Lasgun, or the Hotshot? That's pretty much what it all boils down to.

 

If I take 2 SW  in a squad of vets, that leaves me with 6 guys with lasguns, and is 6-12 shots from a lasgun enough to do significant damage in a world of armor saves? All of my typical foes are 4+ or better. Can the humble lasgun be enough to deal damage to a squad of marines, or for 10 man units is it preferable to have the AP3 of the Hotshot?

 

I say only 2 SW because that's the max that can fire out of a vehicle, I would of course be mechanizing my vets (since I have 4 chimeras, why not?). the codex has made this rather restrictive.

 

I'm still not totally sure what the focus of my army should be. I don't want to focus too heavily on tanks, or aircraft, since I really want a balanced list that encompasses all of them.

[Pablo Benigno]

Hotshots comes in a human that costs more than 10 points, and that is not acceptable. More boots on the ground will lead you to victory!

 

Get some veterans, buy them a Chimera and 2 or 3 special weapons, and repeat this several times to get your forward infantry.

 

AP3 is for Ordnance and Artillery, your boots must carry lasguns and a few plasma or melta. In my opinion, that's the way to go :)

[WarriorFish]

You can't necro your own topic anyway, so nothing to worry about :tu: If its just between guns the lasgun wins as you can get more booties as Pablo says.

 

The hotshot is part and parcel of Stormies in my opinion, and it's the AP3 that makes the different so that should be the focus. Guard are far from short of weaponry to wipe 4+ saves off the map. Either way if you're not sure on the focus of your army that sounds like a better place to be asking questions.

[duz_]

Ill second the above two comments

 

I'd be more willing to use the scions and their HSLGs if they're range was more than 18" ...

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I really like the hotshots due to the fact that they'll go through the armor of most of my foes. Which is something I really need since I only have one platoon with 3 IS, for which to blob up and drown something in saves.

 

I have 4 chimeras, I use Yarrick as my HQ, and I like the idea of a MoO/OotF CCS with 2 mortar squads in the back to provide me with artillery. I also have 2 armored sentinels to back up my blobbed infantry. Then my vulture can swoop in and obliterate things from the sky.

 

Im really trying to go as combined arms as I can, to make a balanced all comers list.

[cracklingvoice]

Why not run both? You can run a few Veteran Squads and/or platoons in  your troops section along with some MT in Elites. I'm planning to run 2-3 mech platoons with an Augur Array on one or two Chimeras in each platoon. You can keep the MT squads in Deep Strike Reserve and bring them in without scattering.

 

Then again, MT also have Move Through Cover, so they automatically pass Dangerous Terrain Tests. So, you technically could drop them almost anywhere and they'll be fine (since a unit that deep-strikes treats Difficult Terrain as Dangerous Terrain).

 

That's a pretty good threat to keep around. Being able to bring in a squad that can nuke MEQ units the turn it comes in. Remember that MT can benefit from Orders, so they can get FRFSRF. So, that's 12-14 shots at BS4 S3AP3 (from Rapid Fire range). Statistically, that'll kill three MEQs. A ten-man squad will drop 27-29 of those shots, (statistically) killing six MEQs. That's the kind of firepower that makes a Marine commander break out in hives at the thought, or shake in rage as his special-snowflake squad of Tactical Marines or Devastators is cut to pieces and force to make a morale check.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Part of why I keep asking is basically so I know what goes best in a chimera. I'm not terribly keen on deep striking that many points though.

[duz_]

Vets in chimeras with 3 special weapons (my preference is meltas no plasma) and no carapace is the best way to run chimeras or if you need bubble wrap on ccs.

[WarriorFish]

Everything is good in a Chimera :P Mechanising is something to be done properly I think, so when you mech up do so in number. While Vets and Stormies benefit from them most the humble Platoon does too, just more of a "more Chimeras for your buck" method.

[cypherthefallenangel]

AM codex vets are imo one of the best units in the book for their points and versatility. I personally would pick vet over stormies almost every time. The loss of uber grit and spec-ops doctrines killed stormtroopers for me. Now i tend to play against mostly competitive turni players that tend tward min/max armies(even with "friendly" games) and veiw maybe skewed by them. That said, i do take a squad of grenadeers every time i play my assault brigade for two reasons (and being worth their points isnt one of them) 1. the DKoK grenadeers are imo one of the coolest looking units in the guard and 2. storm chimeras.. Only the best form of chimera in the game. For 10 more points you get armored track guards, extra armor, an autocannon, AND 5 guys can shoot out the top. Win!

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I really like the DKoK Grenadiers, but DKoK has a glaring issue, there's no single model IC HQ. Which sucks, since you really don't have a good solid HQ choice aside from the CCS.

 

Vets are cool but they don't offer the ability to get into the opponent's face and rip him apart with AP3 lasguns. The problem is it seems like such a waste to put Stormies in a chimera. On the other hand deep striking them poses it's own problems, especially given that I don't want to keep that much off the board.

[march10k]

Funny, when I "mech up" my vets...that means I'm associating an empty chimera with a chamelioline cloak-wearing unit of vets hunkered down in ruins with an autocannon...the "mech" part, to me, means a superscoring AV12 tank with two heavy weapons for 65 points, it doesn't mean crunchies firing from the hatch!  To each his own, I guess...

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Scions/Storm Troopers get lots of hate for being too expensive, hotshots being too short range, etc. but mine have always done well for me. They do have a different role from those of vets however. I find they're at their best deep striking and alpha striking.

[M@verik115]

I usually run a squad of stormtroopers with a commissar in a chimera. Their role is usually elimination of power armoured heavy weapon teams or such and they are damn good at it. 

[WarriorFish]

Stormies should be the scalpel they are, if you're not using their rules and equipment to the fullest then you need to be asking yourself if Vets would be better. Arguably you could say this about a lot of things but the price and nature of Stormtroopers makes it a core decision prior to their addition to a list.

Who dares wins... but then again there's always the peerless Rule of Cool

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I really like the Hotshots, and the range doesn't bother me, since I like to run my hotshot guys very aggressively. My biggest issue is that there is really no cheap option for fielding Hotshots, since DKoK Grenadiers and Scions all clock in at 12ppm, which is fine given the rules that go with them. DKoK getting their iron discipline and WS4, and scions having DS and MTC. There's no cheaper option though, and Hotshots can't be worth more than 1PPM.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Great minds think alike! I was just about to write a follow-up post pointing out that Scions are very much a scalpel unit and must be employed as such.

 

They are not a blunt instrument like infantry platoons are, or even massed veteran "chimelta" squads or the like.

 

Rule of Cool trumps all as far as I'm concerned. But on the other hand, you could always model Scions as veterans with lasguns if you wanted to without a huge amount of conversion work. Chopping off the power cables will get you most of the way there.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I really like the Hotshots, and the range doesn't bother me, since I like to run my hotshot guys very aggressively. My biggest issue is that there is really no cheap option for fielding Hotshots, since DKoK Grenadiers and Scions all clock in at 12ppm, which is fine given the rules that go with them. DKoK getting their iron discipline and WS4, and scions having DS and MTC. There's no cheaper option though, and Hotshots can't be worth more than 1PPM.

 

Unfortunately GW developers seem to really overvalue hotshot lasguns ... they are 1 meltabomb each in the Inquisition codex in the hands of BS 3 acolyte henchmen! Inquisitorial acolytes with only flak armour and a hotshot lasgun are a mere 3 points less than a Scion so they do not make much sense as an alternative way of getting hotshots onto the table. On the other hand, it is handy that the Inquisitorial chimeras still allow five models to shoot out of the top hatch and are cheaper than AM chimerae. So adding those savings up might make acolyte hotshot wielders worthwhile. Yet if you're going that route, Acolytes with bolters for the price of a meltabomb each or stormbolters for only 2 points more each seem like more bank-for-your-buck.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Comparing it up, the Acolytes with carapace and Hotshots come out to 13PPM, but the fact that there's no character, and that the chimera is cheaper saves them a total of about 33 points over Scions. and acolytes get laspistols for free, so they come out to a better value. Still, if you do the math, and take veterans with grenadiers doctrine and krak grenades, that brings them up to 8.5PPM, add 5 points for each guy with a Hotshot, you get 13.5PPM vets. The unit comes out cheaper, not by much, but still cheaper.

 

If we break down DKoK grenaders, they clock in at 12PPM just the same as scions, so take off 6 points for vets, that's 6 points leftover for the upgrades, if a hotshot costs 5 points, that means the DKoK grenadier's Death Korps Rule, Iron Discipline Rule, carapace armor, and krak grenades are only worth 1 point total. That's silly. Scions similarly would be paying 1 point for Krak grenades, DS, and MTC. The thing that really jacks up the cost on Scions is the fact that the Sgt is a baked in upgrade of 10 points.

 

I mean, there's always unbound, but then I get no bonuses, and I really do like my obsec tanks.

[march10k]

Stormtroopers....are scalpels, yes, but they're glass scalpels.  When a crisis suit deepstrikes in and double-meltas a tank, then jumps into cover, it takes serious effort to dig it out of there.  Stormtroopers deepstrike, melta the tank, and then fall over to a stiff breeze.  For them to work, they have to be treated the same way as a krak missile.  They don't have to be cheaper than that which they destroy, but they do have to be reserved for and dedicated to the destruction of linchpin units. 

 

For example, if your opponent's strategy relies on a crusaderload of termies running amok in your backfield, then it's entirely reasonable to devote over 300 points to ensuring that it doesn't get into the backfield, even if you don't actually destroy it outright.  I wouldn't consider it excessive to sacrifice a hellhound parked sideways 1" in front of the crusader on turn one for the sole purpose of killing a movement phase and then deepstrike two melta teams on it on turn two.   That's, by my count, 305 points spent just to make the termies get out and walk, even if you don't "earn" the points of destroying the 250 point tank, and few would argue that the melta teams hadn't justified themselves. Even better if the termies get distracted and go eat the stormtroopers...that's like hitting the trifecta at the track, lol, because now the termies will never make it across the table, you no longer even have to shoot them to death!

 

 

Whether stormtroopers are viable at all depends on your meta, but in the best of times, they're only viable when used as above, to cripple (destruction is optional) the enemy's strategy.  The key is to realize that they are a strategic unit, don't waste them killing units, use them to kneecap your opponent.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

My big question is how lethal can veterans be against infantry? Is 6-7 BS4 lasguns enough to bring down MEQs? I mean I know that there are generally special weapons being taken in vet squads, you'd be daft not to. I just want to maximize my infantry's ability to kill MEQ's. I mostly face Tau and Necrons, and those are some really nasty threats to face with naught but an angry flashlight.

[WarriorFish]

If you want the maximum MEQ popping then it's Stormies - not really a contest! However we're not short of AP3 outside of infantry if you're willing to take other methods of bypassing their saves.

[march10k]

Right!  I wouldn't take stormtroopers for their hellguns.  I'd take them for their ability to deepstrike with special weapons.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

What I'm getting from most of this discussion is that stormies/scions are best used with their deep strike, and Vets are the best thing to mechanize with Chimeras. Unless I want to run a specialist list like DKoK assault brigade, where I can have mech troops with hotshots for a price. Is that basically the gist of it? My army is in a strange place right now, given that I'm transitioning from an Airborne infantry play style to a more combined arms approach.

 

Stormies in a Valk works fine too, it's just that it's a huge points investment. It wouldn't be a huge problem if I weren't trying to keep to an 1850 point limit.