DW formation / detachment creation ...

[Isiah]

Well it looks like the official line is non-mech deep-striking DW formations. Let's suck that up.

 

So why not create our own DW formation that might suit the needs of non-deepstriking afficionados yet still provide a basis for 1st Company purity that many of us hanker for.

 

As ideas go, nothing is no-go. It could be a simple wording change to the existing formation. It could be a totally new one altogether.

 

How would this DW formation sit within the broader ideas of current DA Codex writing? Would Belial be compulsory in this pure force to reflect its totally elitist slant? What special rules would it have? Will this formation exclude the use of any any other non-DW units/formation being used in conjunction with it?

 

Is it small but flexibly expansive? Or, is it more akin to a 1st Company 'demi-company'?

 

What do you want from your mech or footslog DW that doesn't already exist?

 

What will it be called?

 

Answers on a postcard.

 

Btw I'm being a bit slack and using the term Formation generically to cover both formations and detachments :blink:

[Epher]

I think demi company styled formation would be the way to go.  You would need Belial to unlock it because I could not see such a large deployment happening without him.  It would give you deep strike on the first turn.  It would require three squads of regular terminators, one squad of Deathwing Knights, optional command squad and optional dreadnoughts.  All dreadnoughts would require drop pods.

 

It would have been nice to have devastator terminator squads. I don't know if there is a precedent for this but it would be pretty fun.  Dreadnought support could fill this role too.

 

There should also be a special rule if you fielded two demi companies like with the Lion's Blade.  It would require another HQ, three terminator squads and a DWK squad.  Not sure what the rules would be but that is all of my thoughts on the matter at this point. 

[Quixus]

[Joke]Make it even more ridiculous than the two demi-companies of SM. If you field two Deathwing Demi-Companies, every unit gets a land raider (phobos, crusader or redeemer) for free[/Joke]

 

More seriously:

Implacable Advance: On the first game turn the units of the formation/detachment are on the board, they can reroll saves of 1. Just to clarify units in transports are not on the board.

[Ipos]

Really  I think the best path to go would be to keep the DeathWing Strike force as is. But instead of forcing all units into reserve give the option of reserves or within a landraider.

Fluffy, not game breaking, and we get our land raiders back at least in a non clunky way.

[o8oo Anarch]

Really  I think the best path to go would be to keep the DeathWing Strike force as is. But instead of forcing all units into reserve give the option of reserves or within a landraider.

 

Fluffy, not game breaking, and we get our land raiders back at least in a non clunky way.

 

Simple, elegant and the way we intend to play it in my gaming group.

[Roland]

DWSF-> reroll Warlord trait; Deathwing termies (not Knights or Command Squads) have ObSec; if in reserve DS works like Drop Pod Assault.

 

DWRF-> functions as is.

[Quixus]

Really  I think the best path to go would be to keep the DeathWing Strike force as is. But instead of forcing all units into reserve give the option of reserves or within a landraider.

 

Fluffy, not game breaking, and we get our land raiders back at least in a non clunky way.

This would give you nearly no advantage over making an unbound army. The DWRF gets nothing, the DWSF only gets the reroll for the warlord traits.

 

You would be better off, if you kept them in DS reserve and deployed a land raider spear head. Not fluffy but it works.

[Isiah]

Great to see the ball being kicked around a bit here :yes:

[jlmb_123]

A DW mech detachment with some kind of advantage for the Land Raisers might be an option. It could be made up of no dedicated transports but DW squads, DW Kngihts squads, Terminator-armoured characters a heavy support Land Raiders. 

 

An advantage for Land Raiders such as a Scout move or a bonus if their passengers disembark on the same turn within 6" of one another might swing it.

[Hjarl]

Really  I think the best path to go would be to keep the DeathWing Strike force as is. But instead of forcing all units into reserve give the option of reserves or within a landraider.

 

Fluffy, not game breaking, and we get our land raiders back at least in a non clunky way.

 So much this! 

 

Maybe the landraiders bought in this formation should get the old DW/venerable rule for free? Seems pretty balanced (AND FLUFFY) for a formation bonus.

[Quixus]

A DW mech detachment with some kind of advantage for the Land Raisers might be an option. It could be made up of no dedicated transports but DW squads, DW Kngihts squads, Terminator-armoured characters a heavy support Land Raiders. 

 

An advantage for Land Raiders such as a Scout move or a bonus if their passengers disembark on the same turn within 6" of one another might swing it.

Why shouldn't the land raiders be dedicated transports?

 

 

Really  I think the best path to go would be to keep the DeathWing Strike force as is. But instead of forcing all units into reserve give the option of reserves or within a landraider.

 

Fluffy, not game breaking, and we get our land raiders back at least in a non clunky way.

 So much this! 

 

Maybe the landraiders bought in this formation should get the old DW/venerable rule for free? Seems pretty balanced (AND FLUFFY) for a formation bonus.

 

If you give them something in exchange for being allowed to run and shoot the turn they deep strike, you are not leaving the formation/detachment as is. If you don't there is no reason to take the formation over an unbound army.

[Isiah]

My thinking is evolving around how they deploy and a possible deployment special rule.

 

Something along the lines of:

 

DEATHWING ATONEMENT STRIKE FORCE

 

Overwhelming strength

Deathwing units in this formation gain the outflank special rule.

 

In addition, once the deployment edge has been determined for the first outflanking unit, all subsequent units from the DWASF formation arriving from reserve must use the same table edge.

 

[Or something like.]

 

This would replace the current formations' Take the Fight to the Enemy.

 

Outflanking Crusaders and Knights might be a little OP I admit. Which is why they all use the same edge. Gives the enemy a chance to organise their defence knowing where everything will come in from.

 

To be honest it's early days and I'm just mulling random ideas :)

[Isiah]

Just thinking about the composition of this formation. Currently both Deathwing formations only allow a max of one Venerable Dreadnought unit of one model. Do you think that's reasonable?

 

For this new formation what about something like:

 

"Units of Venerable Dreadnoughts may be taken as part of this formation, but each unit may include only one model. Units must total no more than one-third of the formation's Elite allowance."

 

This would then allow you a proportional number of Vennies to your other Deathwing units.

 

 

Additionally: are we preferring the Formation-type prescriptive unit composition, or, the Detachment's fluid force org approach?

 

I'm erring towards a full-blown Detachment I think. But with a similar proportional restriction on Deathwing Knights to stop totally spamming them.

[Roland]

The issue is that the DWRF and DWSF are, basically, the same.

 

The DWRF should remain the same, as it's meant to be used with the Lions Blade, or in pure formations. Leave it as is. (Although I'd not be opposed to a tweak to make it turn 1 or 2 DS.)

 

The DWSF fundamentally is the same thing. The only changes are you get a warlord trait, and a slightly better DS, but it flat out requires you to have some form of RW to function.

Big deal, if we wanted that, we'd take the Redeption Force and a couple of RWAS in formations.

Keep the DWSF with tweaks, the Force Org is fine as is, (everything must have DW rule, unless its a DT.)

Past that it needs two things:

1) The ability to deploy normally or be held in DS reserve (if the unit can DS). Making all DT Venerable would be a nice touch.

2) It needs a more reliable DS, but not necessarily one better than the DWRF. Making all DS units (Dreads in Pods, and teleporting Termies) come in like pods is reliable, but not killer, and not as good as the DWRF. It also allows at least some Turn 1 DS.

 

That's it. That's all it needs. You can play it by itself or paired with the DWRF (which you likely would).

 

It's not significantly better than Unbound + DWRF, but it doesn't need to be. It just needs to do what most people are doing, and make it Battleforged.

[Master Avoghai]

 

Really I think the best path to go would be to keep the DeathWing Strike force as is. But instead of forcing all units into reserve give the option of reserves or within a landraider.

Fluffy, not game breaking, and we get our land raiders back at least in a non clunky way.

 

This would give you nearly no advantage over making an unbound army. The DWRF gets nothing, the DWSF only gets the reroll for the warlord traits.

 

You would be better off, if you kept them in DS reserve and deployed a land raider spear head. Not fluffy but it works.

I think that most of the people who regret how the DW detachment work don't care much about getting no bonus vs playing unbound.

 

What they want is not using unbound...

 

Basically it's rewriting the rule as such : all the units of the formations that are kept in reserve must be place in DS reserve.

 

But if you want a bonus, just remove the necessity of the RW to be able to choose the turn they arrive and make it a rule for the detachment of its own.

[Quixus]

What's wrong with an unbound army, especially when you make a fluffy force?  Why would want to be limited to one dreadnought/deathwing knight unit per formation when you don't get anything in return for that inflexibility?

[Master Avoghai]

I won't rewrite again the problem with unbound. I'm tired to write the same thing again and again.

Unbound is not a rule it's an absence of rule.

 

Secondly we're talking here about the DW strike Force, not the redemption force.

 

The Redemption Force gets bonus from being played in a Lion's Blade.

 

If you want more dread then play a Strike Force

[deadangel101]

Idea for DW heavy support unit called the Phalanx. Termies are armed with storm bolters and storm shields for same cost as DW Knights. Up to four models may replace their storm bolters with heavy flamer, assault cannon, plasma cannon or cyclone launcher (keep the storm bolter) at the normal costs. Best part about this unit is you can make them from the standard DW kit.

[Quixus]

I won't rewrite again the problem with unbound. I'm tired to write the same thing again and again.

Unbound is not a rule it's an absence of rule.

Whether you like unbound armies or not is not the point. When a detachment gives no benefits and has restrictions to what units can be part of it, there is no reason to take that detachment over an unbound army besides personal dislike. It's pretty much like the BA demi company. It has the same benefits as the Baal Strike Force, but cannot take certain units is restricted to three tactical squads (instead of 6 troops choices) etc.

 

Secondly we're talking here about the DW strike Force, not the redemption force.

They both have the same problem. You get restrictions without benefits.

 

The Redemption Force gets bonus from being played in a Lion's Blade.

Yes, but as part of the Lion's Blade it is not in a pure deathwing army, isn't it? If playing a pure DW army wasn't the goal, you could  just as well use a CAD and fill the elite slots with terminators.

 

If you want more dread then play a Strike Force

How many dreadnoughts you can field is not the problem itself but an example of it. You get restrictions without benefits.

 

@deadangel101: I like the idea but I thinkl that would be overpriced unless the unit got some cool special rules. The WGTDA can exchange their power weapons for a storm shield for free. I think starting with the DW terminators and simply exchanging the power fists with storm shields would be appropriate.

[Master Avoghai]

O

 

I won't rewrite again the problem with unbound. I'm tired to write the same thing again and again.

Unbound is not a rule it's an absence of rule.

 

Whether you like unbound armies or not is not the point. When a detachment gives no benefits and has restrictions to what units can be part of it, there is no reason to take that detachment over an unbound army besides personal dislike. It's pretty much like the BA demi company. It has the same benefits as the Baal Strike Force, but cannot take certain units is restricted to three tactical squads (instead of 6 troops choices) etc.

The problem is not me disliking unbound. The problem is me playing against people or in events that do not like unbound. Unbound is a feature that few people use because it's an opened door to any abuse.

So it's better to meet those people with a detachment with restrictions and propose them to play against rather than propose them to play against an unbound army. Same thing in a store or a club refusing unbound games : you can propose them to use the deathwing strike force with a tweak rule rather than propose an unbound game.

I know that it can look the same for you but human's spirit doesn't work like this...

 

 

Secondly we're talking here about the DW strike Force, not the redemption force.

 

They both have the same problem. You get restrictions without benefits.

 

The Redemption Force gets bonus from being played in a Lion's Blade.

 

Yes, but as part of the Lion's Blade it is not in a pure deathwing army, isn't it? If playing a pure DW army wasn't the goal, you could  just as well use a CAD and fill the elite slots with terminators.

You miss the purpose of the Redemption Force. It is not made for fielding a pure deathwing army. It's made to include terminators in a lion's blade.

You want to play terminators on their own : use a strike force

You want to play terminators in a lion's blade and get full BS terminators? Get a redemption force.

 

[deadangel101]

@Quixus. The points values can be tweaked, but you get the idea. It would certainly prompt people to buy more kits to get the heavy weapins they want. If GW is worried about not selling enough to Deathwing players, they could allow storm bolters to be upgraded to combi-weapons as well. Then just sit back and watch sternguard fly off the shelves for conversion kits.

[deadangel101]

My idea for revised Deathwing Strike Force:

 

Force Organization:

Belial (must be taken)

0-2 HQ (must have terminator armor)

0-1 Deathwing Command Squad

0-2 Deathwing Knights Squad

0-3 Venerable Dreadnoughts

2-6 Deathwing Terminator Squad

0-3 Deathwing Phalanx Squad (see above)

 

Deathwing Assault:

Any units from this detachment held in reserve must be placed in Deep Strike Reserve. Venerable dreadnoughts placed in Deep Strike Reserve must be equipped with drop pods and are limited to one per squadron.

 

Deathwing Armory:

Any Deathwing terminator squad, command squad, knight squad or phalanx squad may take any of the land raider variants listed in Codex: Dark Angels as a dedicated transport. Squads including a land raider variant may not be placed in reserve.

 

Any Deathwing terminator model may replace its storm bolter with a combi-weapon for +5 pts.

 

Deathwing sergeants may replace their weapons with those listed in the terminator weapons section of the Dark Angels Wargear list.

 

Deathwing sergeants may be equipped with a teleport homer for +10 pts per model.

 

 

That would seem decent to me...

[Quixus]

O

 

I won't rewrite again the problem with unbound. I'm tired to write the same thing again and again.

Unbound is not a rule it's an absence of rule.

Whether you like unbound armies or not is not the point. When a detachment gives no benefits and has restrictions to what units can be part of it, there is no reason to take that detachment over an unbound army besides personal dislike. It's pretty much like the BA demi company. It has the same benefits as the Baal Strike Force, but cannot take certain units is restricted to three tactical squads (instead of 6 troops choices) etc.

 

The problem is not me disliking unbound. The problem is me playing against people or in events that do not like unbound. Unbound is a feature that few people use because it's an opened door to any abuse.

So it's better to meet those people with a detachment with restrictions and propose them to play against rather than propose them to play against an unbound army. Same thing in a store or a club refusing unbound games : you can propose them to use the deathwing strike force with a tweak rule rather than propose an unbound game.

I know that it can look the same for you but human's spirit doesn't work like this...

 

Depending on how you phrase it you can probably achieve the same thing without homebrew. Instead of going "I want to field an unbound army." just tell your opponent that you would like to field for example two DWTDA squads a DWCS and a couple of HQs all in land raiders. I'm pretty sure that most reasonable people would not object to that. If they ask why you describe it that way, explain that you can only field that combination in an unbound army. I don't think many people would object to unbound armies in that case. Sure all people are different but I'd rather deal with an army that is made according to potentially exploitable rules than someone who essentially makes up some rules that are a lot harder to check. Also see my comment to deadangel101's proposal below.

 

You miss the purpose of the Redemption Force. It is not made for fielding a pure deathwing army. It's made to include terminators in a lion's blade.

You want to play terminators on their own : use a strike force

You want to play terminators in a lion's blade and get full BS terminators? Get a redemption force.

I disagree. Yes the Redemption Force can be fielded as part of the Lion's blade, but it can also be fielded separately, in unbound and battle-forged armies. The rules give no indication that the latter is even discouraged.

 

 

My idea for revised Deathwing Strike Force:

 

Force Organization:

Belial (must be taken)

I wouldn't force Belial. Any Company Master in TDA should do. Belial has neither always been the master of the deathwing nor is he immortal.

 

Deathwing Armory:

Any Deathwing terminator squad, command squad, knight squad or phalanx squad may take any of the land raider variants listed in Codex: Dark Angels as a dedicated transport.

Aren't they already allowed to do that according to their dataslates?

Squads including a land raider variant may not be placed in reserve.

Why not?

 

Any Deathwing terminator model may replace its storm bolter with a combi-weapon for +5 pts.

That isn't a route I would have gone but it is interesting.

 

Deathwing sergeants may replace their weapons with those listed in the terminator weapons section of the Dark Angels Wargear list.

That should be standard for any DWTDA Sgt.

 

That would seem decent to me...

It does, but it demonstrates the problem master Avoghai and I were talking about. When someone comes with such extra rules, you have to thoroughly inspect them to be able to make an informed decision whether I want to play that list. Extra wargear is a pretty straightforward and easy to judge rule but homebrew isn't necessarily that easy. I no movement modes or new ways of dealing or resisting damage are introduced it becomes a lot harder.

[jbaeza94]

Idea for DW heavy support unit called the Phalanx. Termies are armed with storm bolters and storm shields for same cost as DW Knights. Up to four models may replace their storm bolters with heavy flamer, assault cannon, plasma cannon or cyclone launcher (keep the storm bolter) at the normal costs. Best part about this unit is you can make them from the standard DW kit.

Phalanx terminators, they would pay the extra cost for that weapon upgrades right?

 

 

Edit:

I like this formation. I'm sure we can find something fair and balanced soon, however I do see a problem. How do we convince or gaming circles to accept our formation? I feel for pick up games this won't bea big deal, but that means we can't do tournaments, as I feel they would be more reluctant to accept it, especially the new unit.

[Isiah]

That is a problem. One reason why this new or tweaked formation can't be too overpowered.

 

A simple allowance for the DWSF to not be forced into deep strike reserves; the loosening of the one-model Ven Dread rule; and making its drop pod non-compulsory; would probably be the basic and most acceptable solution to work with.

 

An all mech/footslogging DWSF would obviously not benefit from Summoned to War. But, Take the Fight to the Enemy could possibly be tweaked: maybe being allowed to use it the shooting phase of the first turn they arrive by deep strike, or disembark from a transport, or deploy normally.

 

Must be careful to still allow deep-striking for those units that want to utilise it.

 

Despite the Belial tax of previous editions, I don't have an issue of the GM of the Deathwing leading his Terminators in this detachment. In which case one could only field one DWSF per army. Which might be a bind.

 

In which case are a possible 12 Elite slots enough?