DW formation / detachment creation ...

[deadangel101]

The idea for the detachment was something I came up with in about 15 minutes. It hasn't been play tested, and would probably have to be adjusted. Honestly, I'm not sold on the combi-weapons idea. Particularly if the Phalanx were an actual unit. And yes, they would have to pay for the heavy weapons upgrades.

[Isiah]

'Phalanx' is very Imperial Fisty. Just sayin' :p

 

Are all combi-weapons a bit op?

[Roland]

Another track to take is an assaulty all packed LR formation that could run along side the DWRF, thinking the Spearhead formation but with squads attached.

[Master Avoghai]

Another track to take is an assaulty all packed LR formation that could run along side the DWRF, thinking the Spearhead formation but with squads attached.

I'm Master Avoghai and I approve this message!

[Quixus]

Even though this would probably be considered overpowered, just take the Nemesis Strike Force and replace Faction Grey Knights with Faction Dark Angels. Place additional restrictions, if you want to force TDA.

[deadangel101]

@Isiah. I think one of the basic problems with a pure Deathwing army is the low amount of firepower you get for the points. Even with the last codex, where you could do the land raider rush and field Venerable Dreadnoughts on the ground, the net was full of people bemoaning the Deathwing's lack of effectiveness on the table. They need more than just a few word changes in the special rules. They need more guns. It seems adfing a heavy support unit, or allowing them to take combi-weapons, or going back to two heavy weapons per five termies would be the best way to go about that.

[Isiah]

I would agree but can see no precident for the weapon options you detail for every DW squad.

 

Unless ...

 

In our hypothetical detachment, what about a Heavy Support DW option that comes into being that does allow two heavy weapons per squad? Maybe Tank Hunters could be made an option for these squads too. Just for giggles.

 

The Fast Attack DW get the combi-weapons but no heavies.

 

Part of the reward for taking a standalone DW army that is so hamstrung in other ways. Kinda goes back to the 3rd Edition DA Codex that put DW squads into all slots in a pure army.

 

Maybe. It's a stretch. And not how things are done in the current game.

[Master Avoghai]

@Isiah. I think one of the basic problems with a pure Deathwing army is the low amount of firepower you get for the points. Even with the last codex, where you could do the land raider rush and field Venerable Dreadnoughts on the ground, the net was full of people bemoaning the Deathwing's lack of effectiveness on the table. They need more than just a few word changes in the special rules. They need more guns. It seems adfing a heavy support unit, or allowing them to take combi-weapons, or going back to two heavy weapons per five termies would be the best way to go about that.

I agree with this analysis but this is a problem way more complex than a simple detachment/formation.

 

I actually think that the right cost for a DW should be 30pts for a termi with power sword and a 5pts option for a PF and also the option for combi weapons just like the chaos can do.

 

After all, the DA have all the ancient wargear of a former praetorian guard and should have the possibility to fight this way. This is even more obvious when we see all the 30k stuff released by GW.

 

Starting from this, you'd have the possibility to have more firepower for the price you pay and therefore would suffer less from the lack of shots like you do now.

 

But this is a drastic change that GW should implement in all its SM-based supplements, when they at last notice that you cannot base your termi cost just by taking the cost of a vanguard and then stack all the options costs (SB, PF, termi armour etc)

 

But we're not at this point... We're just trying to find a simple way to make a battle forged force of termi that may include LR and/or footslogger dreadnoughts. So I do believe that starting to change points value, wargear access and all is not a good idea

[Spaced Hulk]

Apart from the obvious reserves issue, I do feel that pure DW could do with some sort of boost to their firepower. Perhaps a new Command Benefit for the Deathwing Strike Force called "Fury of the First Legion" - All models in this detachment count their storm bolters as Salvo 2/4 instead of Assault 2.

[Quixus]

Storm Bolters should be something like salvo 2/4, but I don't think this change should be granted by a formation, it should apply to all Storm Bolters. Also don't forget that salve 2/4 essentially is assault 4 on a relentless model.

 

Give them preferred enemy or something similar instead.

 

Or for their close combat prowess:

"Unwieldy weapons do not strike at I1 but at I1+D3 (roll anew each turn)"

[deadangel101]

You could make all their weapons twin-linked all the time instead of just on the turn they deep strike...

[Roland]

DW Vengeance Formation:

Same units as DWRF

 

Restrictions:

Units of Dread noughts may not take Drop Pods.

Independent characters must be in Terminator armour.

Units of DW Terminators, DW Command Squads or DW Knights must take a Land Raider of some sort as a DT.

 

Benefits:

Preceded Enemy (CSM)

 

LR are venerable, as the dreadnaught.

 

The first time they disembark, models have Hammer of Wrath.

 

Lion's Wrath Formation

Units

1 DW Redemption Force

1 DW Vengeance Force (see above)

 

Restrictions:

None additional

 

Benefits:

First Knight of Caliban:if your primary detachment, May reroll warlord trait.

 

Greater DW Assault: The DWRF may elect to DS on turn 1.

 

Grand Master of the Deathwing: All DW Terminator squads have Ob Sec

[Roland]

The Lions Wrath could easily be made into a Decurion style detachment.

 

Core:1-2

Command:1 per Core

Aux:1+ per Core

 

Core

DWRF

DW Vengeance Force

 

Command:As Lions Blade

 

Aux:

RW Air Support:1 Dark Talon or Neph

RW Attack Squadron

Hammer of Caliban

10th Co Support

 

Benefits as above.

[jbaeza94]

Roland

Wouldn't you feel Belial being required in one of the formations a good restriction to the Lions Wrath? After all you did name a rule grand master of the deathwing, I just feel like he should be required for this to work

[Roland]

Sure. I don't feel strongly one way or the other.

[Quixus]

Roland

Wouldn't you feel Belial being required in one of the formations a good restriction to the Lions Wrath? After all you did name a rule grand master of the deathwing, I just feel like he should be required for this to work

Nah. Belial has not always been the 1st Company Master, nor will he be forever. Deathwing should be viable beyond the couple of hundred years that Belial was/is/will be in charge.

[deadangel101]

I like the detachment being organized into multiple formations like the Lion's Blade. I'm not sure it's enough to make Deathwing competitive. Belial is one of the only special characters that can choose different wargear, making it easy for him to represent any master of the Deathwing. I wouldn't have a problem with him being required in the detachment. Note tgat the requirement to include him is different than the requirement to make him your warlord.

[Roland]

I suppose it depends on your definition of "competitive". Either use of the Formation gives you all the benefits of the 6th and 7th codexes. Pure deathwing is playable, as a Battleforged list.

 

Is it going to win tournaments? Not likely, unless you make fundamental changes to TDA, and/or DW squads. That goes a bit farther than my goal (to have a decent battleforged list).

 

For DW, 2 heavys period (not per 5), and the ability to exchange your SB for a combi. Sgts (and DW Knights) should be 2 wounds. Possibly all the DW.

 

TDA needs to be 2+/4++, as well as a lot more. (Hammer of Wrath, and maybe a mechanic to assault after a DS? Thatd throw some fear into people).

[SvenONE]

One thing I would say that really just needs to happen is the clarification or restriction of the current formation.  I would say an acceptable wording would be something like:

 

Deathwing Deployment:  All units must either be deployed on the battlefield or, if eligible to do so, deployed via Deep Strike reserve.  (or whatever language clarifies that Land Raiders will never deep strike)

Deathwing Assault:  6th Edition Rule allowing to deep strike turn 1 or 2 without rolling and all must arrive. 

 

As an alternative I'd like to see some sort of Tier Structure that either encourages you to invest more points in Deathwing.  As of right now, bringing a full boat of Terminators offers you no more of a bonus than if you brought a CM and 2 squads with no wargear of any kind.

 

====================

 

Deathwing Vengeance Detachment:

Each subsequent tier includes the previous tier's special rules.

 

Tier 1: 

• 1 HQ 
• 1 Command Squad

 

The Chapter's Finest: Your HQ must be your designated Warlord and must stay joined with the Deathwing Command Squad.  Your Warlord may take Look Out Sir! rolls even in challenges.

 

Tier 2:

• 1 HQ
• 1 Command Squad
• 2-4 Deathwing Terminators or Knights

 

Optional:

• 1 HQ
• 1-3 Heavy Support

 

Deathwing Battle Stances: The Deathwing are renown for their unrelenting offense as well as their stubborn defense.  At the start of each game turn, you may elect either an offensive or defensive stance.  Offensive Stance allows units of this detachment to sweeping advance on the same turn they have charged (an alternative, less powerful rule instead adds +2 to charge result).  Defensive Stance allows units of this detachment to fire their weapons at their full Ballistic Skill.

 

Tier 3:

• 1 HQ
• 1 Command Squad
• 5+ Deathwing Terminators or Knights

Optional:

• 1 HQ
• 1-3 Heavy Support
• 1-3 Venerable Dreadnoughts or Squadrons

 

Deathwing Supreme Assault:  When arriving from Deep Strike Deathwing Terminators never suffer a mishap.  Should a deep striking squad scatter on top of impossible terrain or an enemy unit they do not roll on the mishap chart.  They simply enter Ongoing Reserves and will reattempt their Deep Strike the following turn. (Alternative rule they simply re-roll scatter)

 

Ancient Vengeance:  A Venerable Dreadnought Squadron may arrive by deep strike.  Each Dreadnought requires its own Drop Pod.  After the first Drop Pod has arrived, roll a scatter die for each subsequent dreadnought and place it 8" away, moving the minimum distance away for any overlapping drop pod.  Then place the Dreadnoughts within the respective disembarking distances.

 

====================

 

RAI:

Tier 1 - Meant to make up for the lack of offensive punch of our HQs

Tier 2 - Intended to offer a tactical decision for your army as well as a mechanized deployment option (it doesn't make sense in the current rules that Deathwing would Deep Strike EVERY engagement)

Tier 3 - Intended to encourage the beautiful sight of seeing bone colored terminators dropping in on the enemy and an investment in those models.  It's not cheap to run and it's expensive in points, but it gives bonuses that blend well with the previous two tiers.  

 

I hope to play test this at some point with someone who's willing to.  Frankly with GW's approach to this game and rules, I could not care less about balance.  Especially when I've played other tabletop games which are so much more balanced and refined (quite honestly making GW rules writers look no better than we do, us poor peons!)

[Quixus]

Interesting. I just wonder why the command squad is mandatory in every formation and the dreadnoughts only come in at tier 3. Also what are those heavy support units? There are no 1st company heavy support choices except land raiders and those can be taken as dedicated transports by every TDA unit.

[jbaeza94]

Maybe a fw option for the heavy support?

[Quixus]

I don't know whether the FW land raider options are considered part of the Deathwing or part of the armoury. If it's the latter anyways, why not take devastators or Vindicators for example? I think this goes against the idea of a pure deathwing army.

[SvenONE]

Interesting. I just wonder why the command squad is mandatory in every formation and the dreadnoughts only come in at tier 3. Also what are those heavy support units? There are no 1st company heavy support choices except land raiders and those can be taken as dedicated transports by every TDA unit.

 

Mainly I feel that a high ranking Inner Circle member doesn't go traipsing around with just ANYONE, after all with all the layers of circles you want you inner most members with you in case something happens.

 

As far as the Dreadnoughts being available at the highest tier, theoretically they are only roused from their stasis in the most dire of circumstances.  Dreadnoughts I have always felt are one of the most disjointed mismatches of fluff to rules, the 7th edition brought them into the modern era, but a lot of times I saw these ancients machines destroyed before they could even fire a shot.  So here I've only included them at the max rank, something that would be considered only in the most dire of circumstances.

 

I'm not totally married to these FOCs, it's really just the thought that I think you should have incremental bonuses as you increase the quantity of troops.  DW in 6th was novel because you could do it, but it was pretty bland becuase it was:

 

Deep Strike

Shoot Storm Bolters and few special weapons

walk very slowly to next target

repeat!

 

The heavy support was basically redundancy.  Maybe even after dedicated transports you want more land raiders!

[Quixus]

Mainly I feel that a high ranking Inner Circle member doesn't go traipsing around with just ANYONE, after all with all the layers of circles you want you inner most members with you in case something happens.

Well all memebers of the Deathwing are in the Inner Circle and Command Squads usually are made up ad hoc for a specific purpose. So I think the HQ should be good without a command squad. If you single out the CS why not the Knights?

 

As far as the Dreadnoughts being available at the highest tier, theoretically they are only roused from their stasis in the most dire of circumstances.  Dreadnoughts I have always felt are one of the most disjointed mismatches of fluff to rules, the 7th edition brought them into the modern era, but a lot of times I saw these ancients machines destroyed before they could even fire a shot.  So here I've only included them at the max rank, something that would be considered only in the most dire of circumstances.

While I agree fluffwise, I don't think all those restrictions should enter the rules. Remember how the humble plasma gun is sometimes described as a priceless relic? I don't thin those should be restricted either.

 

I'm not totally married to these FOCs, it's really just the thought that I think you should have incremental bonuses as you increase the quantity of troops.  DW in 6th was novel because you could do it, but it was pretty bland becuase it was:

 

Deep Strike

Shoot Storm Bolters and few special weapons

walk very slowly to next target

repeat!

The incremental bonuses are interesting, I just don't think the detachment needs other restrictions. Terminators need the bonuses just to keep up with the other marine options, not to mention xenos.

 

The heavy support was basically redundancy.  Maybe even after dedicated transports you want more land raiders!

So it is limited to land raiders (including FW patterns)? From a rules perspective I see that as a good idea, but I don't know whether such vehicles are considered part of the Deathwing.

[Isiah]

According to page 17 of the current Codex, it looks like they are indeed part of the DW. Together with Ven Dreads they are shown as 'Deathwing Support Assets'.

 

Cheers

I