In Your Opinion, How Accurate Has Forgeworld Been So Far?

[Lunar Centurion]

How accurate do you think FW has been with the Heresy? What things did you find inaccurate or not fitting with the setting? I'd like to see what everyone thinks so far.

[powwow]

'Accurate' isn't the right word to use when they are writing a lot of the setting themselves. How about, how is their consistency with other GW sources?

[Guest Royal Cactus]

Good Question. So one thing, i noticed from what i know, in the fight Fulgrim vs Ferrus Manus, Ferruss was whielding Fireblade and Fulgrim hat Forgebraker, i know it's a bit of nitpicking but still just something i noticed ​

[God-Potato of Mankind]

I'd say they are 100% accurate, considering they're writing the fluff as they go.

 

There's an argument for them bearing in mind the HH novels to an extent.

[Skalpynock]

Well, I feel most of what they added to the fluff is great apart from two points:

⋅making the Alpha Legion super secretive and underhanded from the get-go, rather than just plain inefficient, with Alpharius coming and using his unhonourable tactics to get his legion to more victories like in the old IA articles suggested.

⋅likewise, having the Ultramarines be paragons of order even before Guilliman came. From older sources, I was under the impression that before their primarch was found, the XIII^th was a mess, and that the lord of Ultramar gave them a reorganisation they much needed. That was given to the Iron Warriors, it seems.

 

Note that I'm relatively fine with that, it's just stuff that used to make more sense. I won't be one to say "In my time stuff was better"', because strictly speaking, I started the hobby when Extermination was released. They are 100% accurate in that they are the ones who write the fluff, and what they disregard of some novels I feel is for the better (such as Omegon being a mere rumour), although I can't really speak about that, having read a total of 3 BL HH books and a bunch short stories/audios.

[Father Mehman]

Black Library books aren't fluff. Well, I better digress now on that train of thought otherwise I might get a bit heated.

 

Forge World is 100% accurate, in my view. They've put the life into the Heresy and haven't given us cartoonish views of the Legions. There's some grit and grime now. When a Primarch falls for the wrong reasons it's tragic, not a blurb in an Index Astartes article.

[SkimaskMohawk]

One of the things I'm not big on was the introduction of polyneasian patterns onto raven guard stuff. I get it, they want the link between them and the sharks to be clear, but it was applied really badly on the contemptor and honestly came out of left field as there was never anything like that for them before. The fact their upgrade packs are more traditional seem to indicate they realised it wasn't very well executed

[Fire Golem]

Good Question. So one thing, i noticed from what i know, in the fight Fulgrim vs Ferrus Manus, Ferruss was whielding Fireblade and Fulgrim hat Forgebraker, i know it's a bit of nitpicking but still just something i noticed ^_^​

The fight on Istvaan? Fulgrim had the Laer blade I believe.

 

The Forge World stuff is basically the definitive stuff. It's not accurate because for much of it there wasn't any fluff for it to be accurate to. It just is the fluff.

[Calas Typhon]

Good Question. So one thing, i noticed from what i know, in the fight Fulgrim vs Ferrus Manus, Ferruss was whielding Fireblade and Fulgrim hat Forgebraker, i know it's a bit of nitpicking but still just something i noticed ​

The fight on Istvaan? Fulgrim had the Laer blade I believe.

The Forge World stuff is basically the definitive stuff. It's not accurate because for much of it there wasn't any fluff for it to be accurate to. It just is the fluff.

He had the Laer blade, but did not use it (in Fulgrim anyway)

Only once he was about to get stomped by Ferrus did the blade go.. WHOOSH and chop Ferrus' head off. He used Forgebreaker prior to the hacks.

[Demus Ragnok]

Good Question. So one thing, i noticed from what i know, in the fight Fulgrim vs Ferrus Manus, Ferruss was whielding Fireblade and Fulgrim hat Forgebraker, i know it's a bit of nitpicking but still just something i noticed ​

Are you referring to the way the models are represented?

[LongGone]

Good Question. So one thing, i noticed from what i know, in the fight Fulgrim vs Ferrus Manus, Ferruss was whielding Fireblade and Fulgrim hat Forgebraker, i know it's a bit of nitpicking but still just something i noticed ​

Are you referring to the way the models are represented?

I think the idea behind that was so they can represent more than just the battle at Istvaan. I don't have an encyclopedic fluff brain, but I feel as if Ferrus and Fulgrim are shown with the weapons they are modeled with in 9/10 of fluff. Or maybe it's just their iconic weapon of choice. The primarchs have been shown to wield whatever weapon suited their fancy at any given time, so I don't see this as a big departure from the fluff.

Either way, I think the OP was referring more to the fluff and less to how things are modeled.

[Ishagu]

Awesome? Very much so.

 

Accurate with old lore, not at all.

[DuskRaider]

I can understand the Alpha Legion Special Ops thing pre-Primarch, the only part of the background FW made that irks me is when they made Terran Night Lords recruits come from a subterranean prison colony in perpetual darkness, so they were more or less exactly like the Nostraman recruits. That was dumb.

[Legatus]

The Forgeworld treatment of the Legions so far has been good in some instances, not so good in others. But then the background for each Legion had a varying degree of development prior to the FW HH books. Some Legions already had a fairly decent description of their pre-heresy character (like the Ultramarines). Some had a brief description in older material, but were then given a drastic change of character in the novel series (like the Alpha Legion). Some had no pre-heresy description at all to speak of (like the Iron Hands).

 

One treatment that I found to be very good was the one for the Alpha Legion. In this, FW managed to bridge the gap between the older Alpha Legion, described as ruthlessly disciplined, with a strong martial pride, relentlessly assaulting the enemy from all sides, and the newer HH series Alpha Legion, an enigma puzzle no one really knows the motives of.

 

One aspect introduced by the FW Horus Heresy books that was perhaps not handled so well was the already mentioned tendency to attribute characteristics of certain Legions to their genes, rather than to something that was developed or picked up later.

E.g. the Alpha Legion was not turned into a special ops type army by their underground fighter Primarch, they already were a special ops force from the beginning. The Raven Guard was not taught their shadow guerilla tactics by their freedom fighter Primarch who had grown up leading a rebellion, but were fighting like that even before they were reunited with him. The Ultramarines' low casualty rates and their practice to observe and adapt the methods of others was not something Guilliman had brought with him from being tutored in the academies and by the scholars of Macragge, it was how the Legion fought from the get go. The Night Lords were not just infused with criminal elements once they started using criminal scum from Nostramo, they had been using criminal scum from Terra all along.

Where there previously had been a very sensible and natural explanation for how the Legions developed their characteristics, we are now suddenly told that that's simply how they were genetically crafted from the beginning. This feels much lazier and cheaper than there being a legitimate explanation for how those traits were developed.

 

Where FW completely dropped the ball was with the Ultramarines treatment. They seemingly adhere closely to the old material, but they introduce a lot of new elements, going out of their way to diminish and devalue their former accomplishments. Where previously it had been explained in lore that the two reasons for the Legion's growth were their lower casualty rate and their effective recruitment, HH5 now explains that it was their lower casualty rate (which was now "built in", instead of Guilliman's leadership) and the fact that their gene-seed could be reproduced faster than that of the other Legions. Instead of it being their own accomplishment, their growth now is simply a genetic trait that the other Legions just did not have.

HH5 also tells us that the Ultramarines relied heavily on mass/horde tactics, which is emphasized again and again in their background chapter. So much so that we are told that in instances where the Legion couldn't apply their numerical strength, they would suffer horrible losses. Their "exemplary battle" shows the Ultramarines as a close relative to the World Eaters, succeeding by drowning the enemy in bodies. (But you see, the Ultramarines swarm the enemy with reason and unity, while the World Eaters swarm the enemy with rage.)

It was a slap in the face. But then I guess it saves me a great deal of money, since it completely eliminated the likelyhood of me ever starting a 30K Ultramarines army.

[Marshal Loss]

I've loved literally everything they've done so far. As a postgrad in classics I also love the pseudo 'historical' approach to the 'history' of the heresy. It's extremely enjoyable to read! It's interesting to compare to the old Index Astartes.

 

Andy Hoare, Alan Bligh etc are all brilliant at what they do. But to answer the question, I take most of what FW does as gospel, except where it is deliberately ambiguous so as to leave some mystery to the novels

[Lord Blackwood]

So Far Ive really enjoyed the  new portrayals of the legions 

World Eaters got humanized  a great deal  while still retaining what made them cool

Space Wolves are actually pretty interesting especially the Russ  and Bjorn dynamic 

Imperial Fists are Void Heroes  Driven by Duty Honor and Sacrifice
 (  There is just this fantastic battle in  book iii  that involves taking one for the team  thats just incredible ) 

Ultramarines are shown as something  that makes sense instead of just " the best "  making them largely readable to someone who wasant terribly  capable of dealing with their fluff beforehand.  ( Specific Credit to Tempest and the whole Imperium Secundus sections of the fluff for that ) 

The Nightlords are handled really well  in the books that focus on Curze and Sevetar you  really get a feeling for the soul of their legion 

Theres just so much good there  , theres some stuff that ruffles the feathers of folks and thats  fine , but I find sometimes its better to let go and embrace change in order to enjoy  what we have as opposed to pinning for what we used to have. 

Being faithful to the fluff   vs Making new Fluff that fits a greater vision  is a very difficult process  I think  so far Forgeworld and Black Library have been doing really well 

[Legatus]

A few other significant changes that come to mind...

 

In previous lore, the Imperial Fists Legion was said to have selected for successor Chapters according to the attitude of the Marines. Those who were too immersed in vengeful zeal were selected to form the Black Templars. The younger, calmer warriors formed the Crimson Fists. The remaining core of veterans who adhered to the traditional values of the Legion formed the Imperial Fists Chapter.

But now the Imperial Fists Legion has been given an entirely dedicated "Templars" Chapter (ironically around 1000 in strength), led by (now "first captain") Sigismund. So that bit of lore went out the window.

 

In their effort to downplay the Ultramarines, FW even went against their own previous material. In HH3, the Ultramarines are cited together with the Sons of Horus as having the strongest fleet after the Imperial Fists. ("[The Imperial Fists'] naval might was the greatest of any of the Legiones Astartes, and was further enhanced by the fact that many of the ships were the largest in the Imperium. Even the Sons of Horus and the Ultramarines could not rival such strength alone." - HH3, p. 64) Makes sense, since the Ultramarines have their own ship yards, after all.

However, in HH5, the Ultramarines fleet assets are described as "limited", and their naval strength as "in the mid-tier of the Legions" (HH5, p. 82), and the Ultramarines Legion was "never renowned for the number of heavy combat void craft in its service" (HH5, p. 51).

 

So, if they even contradict their own material, you can certainly not commend them for accuracy.

 

That the Iron Hands were given some importance for the early stages of the Great Crusade came somewhat out of the left field. Mainly because such a thing had simply never come up before. But then that Legion had precious little material outside of the Index startes article, which did not describe their early organisation. So it is not exactly "inaccurate". just unexpected.

 

 

I am only adressing FW right now. If we were taling about BL, the walls of text describing the changes would never end.

[Remus Ventanus.]

The Forgeworld treatment of the Legions so far has been good in some instances, not so good in others. But then the background for each Legion had a varying degree of development prior to the FW HH books. Some Legions already had a fairly decent description of their pre-heresy character (like the Ultramarines). Some had a brief description in older material, but were then given a drastic change of character in the novel series (like the Alpha Legion). Some had no pre-heresy description at all to speak of (like the Iron Hands).

 

One treatment that I found to be very good was the one for the Alpha Legion. In this, FW managed to bridge the gap between the older Alpha Legion, described as ruthlessly disciplined, with a strong martial pride, relentlessly assaulting the enemy from all sides, and the newer HH series Alpha Legion, an enigma puzzle no one really knows the motives of.

 

One aspect introduced by the FW Horus Heresy books that was perhaps not handled so well was the already mentioned tendency to attribute characteristics of certain Legions to their genes, rather than to something that was developed or picked up later.

E.g. the Alpha Legion was not turned into a special ops type army by their underground fighter Primarch, they already were a special ops force from the beginning. The Raven Guard was not taught their shadow guerilla tactics by their freedom fighter Primarch who had grown up leading a rebellion, but were fighting like that even before they were reunited with him. The Ultramarines' low casualty rates and their practice to observe and adapt the methods of others was not something Guilliman had brought with him from being tutored in the academies and by the scholars of Macragge, it was how the Legion fought from the get go. The Night Lords were not just infused with criminal elements once they started using criminal scum from Nostramo, they had been using criminal scum from Terra all along.

Where there previously had been a very sensible and natural explanation for how the Legions developed their characteristics, we are now suddenly told that that's simply how they were genetically crafted from the beginning. This feels much lazier and cheaper than there being a legitimate explanation for how those traits were developed.

 

Where FW completely dropped the ball was with the Ultramarines treatment. They seemingly adhere closely to the old material, but they introduce a lot of new elements, going out of their way to diminish and devalue their former accomplishments. Where previously it had been explained in lore that the two reasons for the Legion's growth were their lower casualty rate and their effective recruitment, HH5 now explains that it was their lower casualty rate (which was now "built in", instead of Guilliman's leadership) and the fact that their gene-seed could be reproduced faster than that of the other Legions. Instead of it being their own accomplishment, their growth now is simply a genetic trait that the other Legions just did not have.

HH5 also tells us that the Ultramarines relied heavily on mass/horde tactics, which is emphasized again and again in their background chapter. So much so that we are told that in instances where the Legion couldn't apply their numerical strength, they would suffer horrible losses. Their "exemplary battle" shows the Ultramarines as a close relative to the World Eaters, succeeding by drowning the enemy in bodies. (But you see, the Ultramarines swarm the enemy with reason and unity, while the World Eaters swarm the enemy with rage.)

It was a slap in the face. But then I guess it saves me a great deal of money, since it completely eliminated the likelyhood of me ever starting a 30K Ultramarines army.

Dude, youve said the same thing about Forge worlds treatment of the ultramarines about 10 times now. We get that you dont like it, but its time to move on

[Legatus]

But what if somebody is asking about stuff like that...?

[Lord Blackwood]

But what if somebody is asking about stuff like that...?

No one is asking about your gripe with the ultramarines treatment by forgeworld  

 

You dont wanna play 30k because of it , youve stated yer opinion several times , let it go or move on 

[Legatus]

No one is asking about your gripe with the ultramarines treatment by forgeworld  

 

You dont wanna play 30k because of it , youve stated yer opinion several times , let it go or move on 

 

The topic is about accuracy of Forge World material.

 

I wrote several paragraphs highlighting inaccuracies of Forgeworld material compared to older lore. At the end I added a brief line expressing my disapproval about specifically their treatment of the Ultramarines.

 

You wrote a post how much you liked Black Library material.

 

One of us is not on topic. If you keep derailing this thread it will only get locked down.

[Ishagu]

Now, now. I happen to agree with Legatus.

 

The Ultramarines are supposed to be the flawless, regal loyalists.

[Lord Blackwood]

Now, now. I happen to agree with Legatus.

 

The Ultramarines are supposed to be the flawless, regal loyalists.

Damnit , I have to respect Ishagu's view point due to the depth of respect I have for him  as a hobbyist  ..... I suppose I concede to superior Ultramarine statesmanship

[DuskRaider]

Let me re-phrase this... Why is it such a problem that Ultramarines have the flaws listed in the FW book? I think it's perfectly acceptable, and if anything it makes them more down to earth. They're not perfect, nor should they be.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I find the rules inaccurate.