Ishagu Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 If FW is following the inconsistent black library books instead of leading the direction of the general lore, then it's entirely their own internal issue. Fact is, there are a LOT if inconsistencies involving Legions, characters, power levels and so on. Even if GW signs off on something, what happens when two books don't agree on basic ideas? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 If FW is following the inconsistent black library books instead of leading the direction of the general lore, then it's entirely their own internal issue. Fact is, there are a LOT if inconsistencies involving Legions, characters, power levels and so on. Even if GW signs off on something, what happens when two books don't agree on basic ideas? Well, the way i have always looked at it is that the GW lore was a historical look at what 30k may have been like, sorta how we view events in the past. We dont have 100% details on anything. FW lore is what actually happened. We are now getting the solid facts thats just the way i see it however Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 We can't assume that's how it should be looked at. The Space Marine codex isn't an account of the History of Marines dug out from millennia old sources, it's an author outlining facts. Going back to the point Legatus brought up, exactly why do some people feel the need for the Ultramarines lore to be nerfed? Every time I read about the Sons of Horus they were described as perfect in every way, and people are fine with that. Most Legions have real flaws either with their doctrines or Primarchs, the whole idea behind the Ultramarines is that they didn't share those flaws. There was no inclination for violence, for secrecy, for mistrust - they were disciplined tacticians and their Primarch a visionary for the future of mankind. This is what myself and Legatus like about the Ultras. We don't criticise those with an affinity for the Space Wolves for example - if drunken, space viking is your thing that's entirely up to you. The idea that the Ultramarines, a Legion and Chapter that has always been described as Tactical geniuses are being written as a force that relies on swarm tactics is rediculous. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 We can't assume that's how it should be looked at. Going back to the point Legatus brought up, exactly why do some people feel the need for the Ultramarines lore to be nerfed? Every time I read about the Sons of Horus they were described as perfect in every way, and people are fine with that. Most Legions have real flaws either with their doctrines or Primarchs, the whole idea behind the Ultramarines is that they didn't share those flaws. There was no inclination for violence, for secrecy, for mistrust - they were disciplined tacticians and their Primarch a visionary for the future of mankind. This is what myself and Legatus like about the Ultras. We don't criticise those with an affinity for the Space Wolves for example - if drunken, space viking is your thing that's entirely up to you. The idea that the Ultramarines, a Legion and Chapter that has always been described as Tactical geniuses are being written as a force that relies on swarm tactics is rediculous. I am on agreement that some other legions are just as "perfect" as the ultramarines. But as we all know the ultramarines have recieved much flak for this.(Tho not on this forum). In regards to the swarm tactic comment.....They are able to take the least amount of casualties, take worlds quicker(presumably), so it would seem to me that this is a brilliant tactic. Having all chapter being able to work together so flawlessly is tactical genius Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 That's not how it comes across in Tempest, unfortunately. I like a lot of what is written in Tempest, and I love the rules they assigned to the Ultras, but some of the new lore is downright stupid, inconsistent and insulting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 That's not how it comes across in Tempest, unfortunately. I like a lot of what is written in Tempest, and I love the rules they assigned to the Ultras, but some of the new lore is downright stupid, inconsistent and insulting. Tho, it does come across like that in tempest, as that is what Tempest states. But lets just agree to disagree Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Every time I read about the Sons of Horus they were described as perfect in every way, and people are fine with that. I think that's the point with the Sons of Horus though? It's a sentiment many shared, and then they themselves bought into the illusion of their own superiority. That illusion lasts all the way up until the Siege of Terra, where it gets pretty messily shattered. Then they proceed to get massacred for decades/centuries/time how does it work in the Eye. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 We've been down this road a few too many times. Lets move on from the Ultramarines discussion because all that happens is the thread gets locked because the conversation goes nowhere. People dont like the way the UM are portrayed for their own reasons and others do for different or even the same reasons that others dislike. Agree to disagree. Move On. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 If the Ultramarines are big enough to use 'swarm tactics' and it works for them, I don't see that detracting from them being a strong strategic force. They're using a viable strategy. I never got the impression that they 'rely' on tactics like that, just that they use them because they work. Is that not good tactical acumen? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 We can't assume that's how it should be looked at. The Space Marine codex isn't an account of the History of Marines dug out from millennia old sources, it's an author outlining facts. Going back to the point Legatus brought up, exactly why do some people feel the need for the Ultramarines lore to be nerfed? Every time I read about the Sons of Horus they were described as perfect in every way, and people are fine with that. Most Legions have real flaws either with their doctrines or Primarchs, the whole idea behind the Ultramarines is that they didn't share those flaws. There was no inclination for violence, for secrecy, for mistrust - they were disciplined tacticians and their Primarch a visionary for the future of mankind. This is what myself and Legatus like about the Ultras. We don't criticise those with an affinity for the Space Wolves for example - if drunken, space viking is your thing that's entirely up to you. The idea that the Ultramarines, a Legion and Chapter that has always been described as Tactical geniuses are being written as a force that relies on swarm tactics is rediculous. I can't think of a legion with a more controversial portrayal in the Heresy series than the space wolves. Only Legatus gets upset about the Ultras fluff. Everybody loses their minds when a space wolf book comes out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 We can't assume that's how it should be looked at. The Space Marine codex isn't an account of the History of Marines dug out from millennia old sources, it's an author outlining facts. Going back to the point Legatus brought up, exactly why do some people feel the need for the Ultramarines lore to be nerfed? Every time I read about the Sons of Horus they were described as perfect in every way, and people are fine with that. Most Legions have real flaws either with their doctrines or Primarchs, the whole idea behind the Ultramarines is that they didn't share those flaws. There was no inclination for violence, for secrecy, for mistrust - they were disciplined tacticians and their Primarch a visionary for the future of mankind. This is what myself and Legatus like about the Ultras. We don't criticise those with an affinity for the Space Wolves for example - if drunken, space viking is your thing that's entirely up to you. The idea that the Ultramarines, a Legion and Chapter that has always been described as Tactical geniuses are being written as a force that relies on swarm tactics is rediculous. I can't think of a legion with a more controversial portrayal in the Heresy series than the space wolves. Only Legatus gets upset about the Ultras fluff. Everybody loses their minds when a space wolf book comes out. I can understand that to an extent :-P FW's new portrayal of them as the Executioners of Legions makes them out to be superior (another poor lore alteration). I'm generally ok with this because I know they'd get trounced if they tried to take on the Ultras :-P Btw, in my former post I was mostly referring to SW in 40k... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZebraM Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Speaking of fleets and such, where would you lot rate the legions on their fleet size, fleet strenght and stregnth at space combat? Obviously Imperial Fists, Sons of Horus and Ultramarines are at the top with the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and Word Bearers also somewhere near to top and the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons near the bottom. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Also, as has been stated by a few GW Design Team members, including some from the FW Team, the design meetings for "Where do we go from here?" includes all three branches of GW: Prime, FW and BL. So if anything changes in the fluff, its been agreed upon by all parties. Meaning that whatever Forgeworld or BL does with the Fluff, GW Prime is ok with since they signed off on the idea. Although I suspect in a lot of instances the decision was not so much "alright, BL, this is how we are going to change the lore from now on", and more like "alright, Dan, do whatever you want with that Legion. We'll just explain it as "lose canon"". GW probably just doesn't want to rein in their high profile authors too much. As much as I enjoy participating in debates about the importants of the various GW sources, it is not really relevant in this discussion. For the question of the "accuracy" of Forgeworld's material, all that matters is how close it adheres to previously published material. How much one prefers the original 40K stuff or the retconned FW stuff is secondary. Feel free to express your preferences, but they are immaterial to the question of whether the FW material is or is not accurate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258091 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironwithout Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Speaking of fleets and such, where would you lot rate the legions on their fleet size, fleet strenght and stregnth at space combat? Obviously Imperial Fists, Sons of Horus and Ultramarines are at the top with the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and Word Bearers also somewhere near to top and the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons near the bottom. Not really sure although I know the white Scars fleet was the fastest. I forget what I read but it was when they broke through an Alpha Legion fleet it talked about the Legions fleets being adjusted to suit the Legion in question and the Scars being retro fitted to be incredibly fast. I'm hazy on the details as I read it a long time ago. The raven guard are supposed to have adanced stealth equipment on theirs. Pretty much what the Legion is like goes for the fleet aswell. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 It's in Scars. Fulgrim made his ships more beautiful, Corax made his stealthy, and 'the only metric the White Scars improved upon was speed'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Also, as has been stated by a few GW Design Team members, including some from the FW Team, the design meetings for "Where do we go from here?" includes all three branches of GW: Prime, FW and BL. So if anything changes in the fluff, its been agreed upon by all parties. Meaning that whatever Forgeworld or BL does with the Fluff, GW Prime is ok with since they signed off on the idea. Although I suspect in a lot of instances the decision was not so much "alright, BL, this is how we are going to change the lore from now on", and more like "alright, Dan, do whatever you want with that Legion. We'll just explain it as "lose canon"". GW probably just doesn't want to rein in their high profile authors too much. As much as I enjoy participating in debates about the importants of the various GW sources, it is not really relevant in this discussion. For the question of the "accuracy" of Forgeworld's material, all that matters is how close it adheres to previously published material. How much one prefers the original 40K stuff or the retconned FW stuff is secondary. Feel free to express your preferences, but they are immaterial to the question of whether the FW material is or is not accurate. That's not how accuracy works. If you shoot at a target and then change targets you're still accurate. The HH card game changed targets. BL changed targets. Then FW changed targets. Now FW and BL are shooting at the same target, but it's not the target the 2nd edition authors shot for. That's not even on the same range. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258122 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 "I meant to hit two feet from the target!" Like that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 That would be the case if FW had written about the night lords recruiting from District 12 or the Mandalorians. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Even if GW signs off on something, what happens when two books don't agree on basic ideas? Everything you have been told is a lie? :wink: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 That's not how accuracy works. If you shoot at a target and then change targets you're still accurate. The HH card game changed targets. BL changed targets. Then FW changed targets. Now FW and BL are shooting at the same target, but it's not the target the 2nd edition authors shot for. That's not even on the same range. So, what about the description from the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, how the Ultramarines Legion had grown in size due to their low casualties and their effective recruitment, changed in the FW book to because of their low casualties and their easily reproducable genetic material. That hadn't been stated in any previous Black Library publication, has it? So in what respect is that "accurate"? Or the Raven Guard or Alpha Legion doctrines. The Index Astartes articles described how their Primarchs trained the Legions according to what they had learned growing up. Did any of the BL novels explain that those Legions in fact had been fighting using those very same specialisations from their very founding? Had a novel previously described how the Night Lords had been formed from criminals right from the beginning? How about the Ultramarines naval "strength" being described as second only to the Imperial Fists in one FW book, while being described as "mid-tier" in another? Surely that cannot be considered "accurate" by any standard. Did any BL book mention a "Templars" Chapter within the Imperial Fists Legion, or was that something FW came up with? (genuinely don't know) How many of those weapons that originally weren't supposed to be around during the Heresy (and still are not available to Chaos Marines in 40K to this day) had been explicitely mentioned in a Black Library book before Forgeworld included them in their army list? Storm shields? Cyclones? Multimeltas? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZebraM Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I thought the Ultramarines grew because they absorbed some of the two missing legions? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I thought the Ultramarines grew because they absorbed some of the two missing legions? Nah. That's a fan theory supported by material entirely intended as scuttlebutt. It's not actually true. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258180 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Speaking of fleets and such, where would you lot rate the legions on their fleet size, fleet strenght and stregnth at space combat? Obviously Imperial Fists, Sons of Horus and Ultramarines are at the top with the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and Word Bearers also somewhere near to top and the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons near the bottom. Death Guard are up there as well, they're described as having a massive fleet compared to the size of the Legion (which is about mid-tier, but ebbs and flows to upper and lower depending on campaigns and recruitment). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Speaking of fleets and such, where would you lot rate the legions on their fleet size, fleet strenght and stregnth at space combat? Obviously Imperial Fists, Sons of Horus and Ultramarines are at the top with the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and Word Bearers also somewhere near to top and the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons near the bottom. Death Guard are up there as well, they're described as having a massive fleet compared to the size of the Legion (which is about mid-tier, but ebbs and flows to upper and lower depending on campaigns and recruitment). That's not quite right, I think we're mid to maybe even mid-low on the fleet size ranking (not sure following Isstvan V?). The Death Guard have a very above average number of capital ships but not so much on anything else (p.137 of Betrayal). But boy do we have capital ships. Another page says something like 70 capital ships, but only 3x that number of every other ship type, and that's before the betrayal so probably a good deal of smaller ships lost. Think of that being like the US fleet in 1941 having 17 battleships, but then instead of having ~200 destroyers and light cruisers, it would have like 50. That's the Death Guard fleet. Go big or go home. Cool stuff though, the same entry on p.137 specifically lists the Imperial Fists, Sons of Horus and Dark Angels as notable for having very large fleets in comparison to the other Legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Ahh, there we go. I know they had some big guns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317295-in-your-opinion-how-accurate-has-forgeworld-been-so-far/page/3/#findComment-4258312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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