deadangel101 Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Alright, here is the thing. Pure Deathwing never really worked, even with the Crusader rush. I wanted them to. Visually, an army of terminators looks really cool. I sympathize completely with everyone here, especially with the "option" of going unbound. Makibg pure Deathwing work would just take too much. ..work. They need better support. They need to be able to get around the board more efficiently. They need more firepower than one storm bolter per 40 point model and one heavy weapon in five. But ALL of these things they need are already present in other units in the army. We have devastators and squadrons of tanks. We have tactical and scouts squads able to provide high numbrrs of bolters at a fraction of the cost. We have Ravenwing to race and fly all over the battlefield to intercept and pursue our opponent's units. if we actually pause long enough to be honest with ourselves, we have to admit that our codex has virtually all the tools we need to field a decently competitive army. Termies are meant to drop into our opponent's deployment zone and present them with some tough units that arw right in their face. To this end, few armies do it better than the Dark Angels. Maybe it's time to just stop trying to turn them into something they are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elios Harg Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 That is actually incorrect. There was a brief period in 5th with the 4th edition codex after the errata updating cyclones and stormshields was released where Deathwing was pretty damn good as a foots logging army. Having 30+ stormshields with about 12 missile shots was pretty decent in the late 5th edition meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayJ Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Mech deathwing was solid in early 5th edition due to old smoke downgrading pens to glances for land raiders and dreads. Foot deathwing was amazing in late 5th for the reasons Elios said. You had to start moving for the right objectives from turn 1 though, and assault was used more for covering board distance than for killing stuff. DW basically played similar to wolf guard + lone wolves. Edit: just remembered old machine spirit functioning like extra armor for the mech deathwings too, so it was easy to get the terminators into position if you had the transport pointed the right way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Because I am tired of people whining that something cannot be done even though it is obvious that it CAN be done. Legally. Just the way it used to be. Just not in a force org chart. The game has changed. It has been like this for two editions now. The only thing stopping you is pride and an inability to see that the designers want them to work this way. I don't know WHY the designers want it this way but the FAQ shows that whining isn't going to change it back so just accept it and get on with purging the unclean. Work this angst out on the xenos. Lord knows there are enough of them. If you don't want to play unbound or your group does not let you, take a DWRF or DWSF and a Land Raider Spearhead. Now the land raiders aren't Dark Angels, but Iron Hands chapter tactics would add some resilience like the old Deathwing Vehicle rule did. Deploy the tanks on turn 1 so you do not auto lose, deep strike half the dreadnoughts on turn 1, deep strike the rest of the dreads and the terminators on turn 2 or later (DWSF). Or get all your units on turn two (DWRF). Pick up your squads with the transports when they need a lift. It's not Raider Rush but at least you can field the Land Raiders. The skeleton of the army could look something like this: ++ Dark Angels: Codex (2015) (DA Deathwing Strike Force) (1080pts) ++ + HQ (375pts) + Company Master (120pts) [iron Halo] ··Terminator Armour [Power Sword, Storm Bolter] Interrogator-Chaplain (140pts) [Rosarius] ··Terminator Armour [Crozius Arcanum, Storm Bolter] Librarian (115pts) [Psychic Hood] ··Psyker [Level 2] ··Terminator Armour [(None), Force Axe] + Elites (705pts) + Deathwing Command Squad (225pts) [Assault Cannon, Deathwing Apothecary, 5x Deathwing Terminators, Terminator Armour] Deathwing Terminator Squad (240pts) [Chainfists, Cyclone Missile Launcher, 5x Deathwing Terminators (incl. Sergeant), Terminator Armour, Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield] Deathwing Terminator Squad (240pts) [Chainfists, Cyclone Missile Launcher, 5x Deathwing Terminators (incl. Sergeant), Terminator Armour, Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield] ++ Space Marines: Codex (2015) (Formation Detachment) (750pts) ++ + (No Category) + Chapter Tactics * [iron Hands] + Formation (750pts) + 'Land Raider Spearhead (750pts) ··Land Raider [Twin-linked Heavy Bolter, Two Twin-linked Lascannons] ··Land Raider [Twin-linked Heavy Bolter, Two Twin-linked Lascannons] ··Land Raider Crusader [Twin-linked Assault Cannon, Two Hurricane Bolters] Plenty of room for more bodies or wargear, if you aim for 2000 points. The extra HQs are also not needed and could be replaced with dreadnoughts or more bodies/wargear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 It's creative :), but I'm not sold that taking allies is the solution here. It feels like a workaround until the real one comes along (if ever :p) But I get it too that some folks are against, or at least not overly concerned, about any kind of resolution to this from within the DA Codex itself anyway. Which both surprises and saddens me. Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I agree it is not perfect. The obvious solution is to go unbound, but some people still dislike it just because it could also be used to cram more riptides into a list. Unbound Deathwing works and it is not unfluffy (which novels had forces that obeyed the FOC?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Which both surprises and saddens me. Cheers I Just so you know, we are not opposed to you getting the army you want. But our enthusiasm or lack there of most likely comes from the fact that we don't play pure DW. You can hardly expect someone who doesn't play the army to get as animated about issues with the rules. In looking over the suggested DW formations it feels like they are all forcing the issue of DW refusing to make use of the rest of the chapter. In a pouty child sort of way. Every idea I could think of seemed forced, or cherry picked to someone's collection, or shoehorned. If you are going to house rule it anyway, give yourself a penalty for getting the new advantage. Take the DWSF and add a clause at the end. "This formation may opt to not DS. To do every unit must take a dedicated transport. Drop pods are not allowed. If this option is used, no unit from this formation may start in reserves." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 The limited number of models is penalty enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Take the DWSF and add a clause at the end. "This formation may opt to not DS. To do every unit must take a dedicated transport. Drop pods are not allowed. If this option is used, no unit from this formation may start in reserves." Well if that's an agreed workable solution then fine. Easy wasn't it? Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormxlr Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 To be honest, I just dont think they will bring back pure DW. From sales stand point you only need to sell 1 or 2 HQs and ~20-30 Terminators, 2-3 dreadnoughts and 2 or 3 Land Raiders and the player has between 3000 to 4000 points depending on upgrades (6thed codex). Its even cheaper if you just want foot slogging terminators All you need is 31 models for 1850 (6th ed codex). Find me a damn army that is 31 Infantry models at 1850. Before 7th my main army was Footslogging Deathwing Belial, Command Squad with Banner of Fortitude and 5 more groups of terminators, no lrs or dreads. Thats all I ever played basically. I loved it. Deepstrike turn one with Belial on the center of the table and provide 12 inch bubble of FNP to virtually all DW units. And you just camp objectives until the end of the game. sure Im over simplifying the tactics but thats essentially how it worked. I did not need Dreadnoughts, I did not need Drop pods, I did not need Land Raiders. Now we got to buy the damn Ravenwing Detachment, but hey 7 bikers and land speeder is not really much turn one, most armies like Tau or Eldar will blast them off the table turn one. So you end up buying even more Ravenwing... those very expensive biker models. And to suck even more money out of you they removed the nice little Ravenwing Battleforce that nicely had all the units we need in a single convenient box, they split the models between multiple boxes and raised the price too. Oh you wanna field a Dreadnought? Well you got to buy that Drop Pod too then. And thats exactly what god damn happened. I was forced to purchase the god damn bikers and drop pods that I never needed before just to play with my Terminators. Now I just dont really feel like even playing Deathwing, it was just ruined for me. I have retired them to my box and continued to paint my 5th battle company. I guess their tactic really did work, they made me stop playing with the toys ive always been playing with and didnt need anything else and started to collect some other aspect of my codex. TL/DR they ruined Deathwing because they wanted to sell more models. Another thing I really am pissed about though is that they removed Dozer Blades from a Land Raider.... golly gee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Take the DWSF and add a clause at the end."This formation may opt to not DS. To do every unit must take a dedicated transport. Drop pods are not allowed. If this option is used, no unit from this formation may start in reserves." That makes removes the option to take dreadnoughts. If that is not intentional make it "every unit in TDA must take a dedicated transport". Still I don't see the point of this formation. You pay for the reroll on the warlord table with being forced to deploy everything on the table. Additionally I doubt many groups that categorically prohibit unbound armies will be very open to homebrew. @Stormxlr: yeah removing the dozerblades is silly. Then again most of the problem of immobilized land raiders can be fixed by making terrain work differently for certain units. Mud that is difficult for infantry probably isn't for tanks and definitely isn't for skimmers. Field with anti-tank mines or tank traps might be dangerous or impassible for tanks but at best should be diffcult for infantry. Anti-personnel mines should be dangerous for infantry but not for sufficiently armoured or hovering vehicles etc. If you get to 1850 points with 31 models you must have given them some serious bling. 30 DWTDA were 1320 points in 6th, Belial 190. Just for fun I tried how much points I could generate with 31 Grey Knights in a battle-forged army. At 2410 points I stopped trying. ++ Grey Knights: Codex (2014) (GK Nemesis Strike Force) (2410pts) ++ + HQ (250pts) + Grand Master (250pts) [Domina Liber Daemonica, Frag, Krak and Psyk-out grenades, Iron Halo, Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Psycannon, Psyker [ML 2], Terminator Armour] + Elites (1700pts) + Paladin Squad (850pts) [brotherhood of Psykers [ML 1], Terminator Armour] ··Apothecary [Master-crafted melee weapon, Narthecium, Nemesis Daemon hammer] ··Paladin [Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] ··Paladin [Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] ··Paladin [Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] ··Paladin [Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] ··Paladin [Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] ··Paladin (special weapon) [Master-crafted ranged weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Psycannon] ··Paladin (special weapon) [Master-crafted ranged weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Psycannon] ··Paladin (special weapon) [Master-crafted ranged weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Psycannon] ··Paladin (special weapon) [Master-crafted ranged weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Psycannon] Paladin Squad (850pts) [brotherhood of Psykers [ML 1], Terminator Armour] ··Apothecary [Master-crafted melee weapon, Narthecium, Nemesis Daemon hammer] ··Paladin [Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] ··Paladin [Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] ··Paladin [Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] ··Paladin [Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] ··Paladin [Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] ··Paladin (special weapon) [Master-crafted ranged weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Psycannon] ··Paladin (special weapon) [Master-crafted ranged weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Psycannon] ··Paladin (special weapon) [Master-crafted ranged weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Psycannon] ··Paladin (special weapon) [Master-crafted ranged weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Psycannon] + Troops (460pts) + Terminator Squad (460pts) [brotherhood of Psykers [ML 1], Terminator Armour] ··7x Terminator (hammer) [7x Nemesis Daemon hammer, 7x Storm bolter] ··Terminator (psycannon) [Nemesis force sword, Psycannon] ··Terminator (psycannon) [Nemesis force sword, Psycannon] ··Terminator Justicar [Master-crafted ranged weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] Of course the load out is silly but you can make a more sensible list at 1850. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 They removed dozer blades because GW doesn't make them for land raiders... And they don't want to give money to 3Rd party companies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormxlr Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Take the DWSF and add a clause at the end."This formation may opt to not DS. To do every unit must take a dedicated transport. Drop pods are not allowed. If this option is used, no unit from this formation may start in reserves." That makes removes the option to take dreadnoughts. If that is not intentional make it "every unit in TDA must take a dedicated transport". Still I don't see the point of this formation. You pay for the reroll on the warlord table with being forced to deploy everything on the table. Additionally I doubt many groups that categorically prohibit unbound armies will be very open to homebrew. @Stormxlr: yeah removing the dozerblades is silly. Then again most of the problem of immobilized land raiders can be fixed by making terrain work differently for certain units. Mud that is difficult for infantry probably isn't for tanks and definitely isn't for skimmers. Field with anti-tank mines or tank traps might be dangerous or impassible for tanks but at best should be diffcult for infantry. Anti-personnel mines should be dangerous for infantry but not for sufficiently armoured or hovering vehicles etc. If you get to 1850 points with 31 models you must have given them some serious bling. 30 DWTDA were 1320 points in 6th, Belial 190. Just for fun I tried how much points I could generate with 31 Grey Knights in a battle-forged army. At 2410 points I stopped trying. ++ Grey Knights: Codex (2014) (GK Nemesis Strike Force) (2410pts) ++ + HQ (250pts) + Grand Master (250pts) [Domina Liber Daemonica, Frag, Krak and Psyk-out grenades, Iron Halo, Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Psycannon, Psyker [ML 2], Terminator Armour] + Elites (1700pts) + Paladin Squad (850pts) [brotherhood of Psykers [ML 1], Terminator Armour] ··Apothecary [Master-crafted melee weapon, Narthecium, Nemesis Daemon hammer] ··Paladin [Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] ··Paladin [Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] ··Paladin [Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] ··Paladin [Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] ··Paladin [Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] ··Paladin (special weapon) [Master-crafted ranged weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Psycannon] ··Paladin (special weapon) [Master-crafted ranged weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Psycannon] ··Paladin (special weapon) [Master-crafted ranged weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Psycannon] ··Paladin (special weapon) [Master-crafted ranged weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Psycannon] Paladin Squad (850pts) [brotherhood of Psykers [ML 1], Terminator Armour] ··Apothecary [Master-crafted melee weapon, Narthecium, Nemesis Daemon hammer] ··Paladin [Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] ··Paladin [Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] ··Paladin [Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] ··Paladin [Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] ··Paladin [Master-crafted melee weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] ··Paladin (special weapon) [Master-crafted ranged weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Psycannon] ··Paladin (special weapon) [Master-crafted ranged weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Psycannon] ··Paladin (special weapon) [Master-crafted ranged weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Psycannon] ··Paladin (special weapon) [Master-crafted ranged weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Psycannon] + Troops (460pts) + Terminator Squad (460pts) [brotherhood of Psykers [ML 1], Terminator Armour] ··7x Terminator (hammer) [7x Nemesis Daemon hammer, 7x Storm bolter] ··Terminator (psycannon) [Nemesis force sword, Psycannon] ··Terminator (psycannon) [Nemesis force sword, Psycannon] ··Terminator Justicar [Master-crafted ranged weapon, Nemesis Daemon hammer, Storm bolter] Of course the load out is silly but you can make a more sensible list at 1850. Hey, My bad its exactly 1750 Belial DWC-AC, TH/SS, Champion, Sacred Standard of Fortitude DWT- AC, TH/SS DWT-CML,TH/SS DWT-CML,TH/SS DWT-PC,TH/SS DWT-PC,TH/SS They removed dozer blades because GW doesn't make them for land raiders... And they don't want to give money to 3Rd party companies... Well... that just sucks and is incredibly idiotic. FW still has all LRs with Dozer Blades though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 Who actually created this thread? Because I sure as hell didn't do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormxlr Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Who actually created this thread? Because I sure as hell didn't do so. Mod put it together by pulling out all the complaints from the FAQ thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 @ Stormlxr: No, FW doesn't have dozer blades for Land Raiders in their catalogue. @ Harleqvin: Your was the first post from the ones I took from the DA FAQ thread to create this thread as a new thread, so you appear as thread creator, even if you weren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormxlr Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 @ Stormlxr: No, FW doesn't have dozer blades for Land Raiders in their catalogue. I meant in the rules. From HH to Warmachines book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Take the DWSF and add a clause at the end."This formation may opt to not DS. To do every unit must take a dedicated transport. Drop pods are not allowed. If this option is used, no unit from this formation may start in reserves." That makes removes the option to take dreadnoughts. If that is not intentional make it "every unit in TDA must take a dedicated transport". Still I don't see the point of this formation. You pay for the reroll on the warlord table with being forced to deploy everything on the table. Additionally I doubt many groups that categorically prohibit unbound armies will be very open to homebrew. I intentionally did that to remove Dreadnoughts as an option if you chose to mech. So what I did here was to change the DWSF to have 2 different deployment options, similar to how the RWSF is. The difference is that the RWSF can decide at deployment which method it will use... whereas the DW have to decide at list creation. But the DWSF, like the RWSF is very flexible in how big or small it can be. So you now have several options on how to field your DW. And each comes with some nice advantages. You just have to chose which advantages are important to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 But the DWSF, like the RWSF is very flexible in how big or small it can be. So you now have several options on how to field your DW. And each comes with some nice advantages. You just have to chose which advantages are important to you.What is the advantage of deploying on board? The reroll on the warlord traits table? I'd rather take the flexibility of taking drop pods and being allowed to put part of my army in reserves. The houserules are only remotely appealing, if you are not allowed to play an unbound DW army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Guys, any actual rule suggestions and subsequent comments should really be put into the ongoing Deathwing formation/detachment creation topic, otherwise, I for one will get very muddled ^_^ I no longer have mod powers so can't shift posts around any longer. Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted December 22, 2015 Author Share Posted December 22, 2015 Guys, any actual rule suggestions and subsequent comments should really be put into the ongoing Deathwing formation/detachment creation topic, otherwise, I for one will get very muddled I no longer have mod powers so can't shift posts around any longer. Cheers I Isn't that still venting about DW, though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 I hope not. Venting posts should be posted in this topic only ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share Posted December 23, 2015 lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 But the DWSF, like the RWSF is very flexible in how big or small it can be. So you now have several options on how to field your DW. And each comes with some nice advantages. You just have to chose which advantages are important to you.What is the advantage of deploying on board? The reroll on the warlord traits table? I'd rather take the flexibility of taking drop pods and being allowed to put part of my army in reserves. The houserules are only remotely appealing, if you are not allowed to play an unbound DW army. As far as I understood it, everything we have been talking about was house rules. creating a solution to allow people to play pure DW and not auto lose, because you don't have models on the board turn 1. I have always consider that BALANCED meant that whatever has both advantages and disadvantages. And that the disadvantages have a real impact, and were not just trivial. And go figure, the current DW rules are set up just that way. Yes you can play pure DW with the only disadvange being that if your opponents decides that they don't want to play you after they agreed to play you, then they can claim the auto win. But the advantage is that you don't have to unpack your models for people that don't actually want to play. So how would you solve the DW problem, and what penalty would you accept in order to get that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted December 23, 2015 Share Posted December 23, 2015 As far as I understood it, everything we have been talking about was house rules. creating a solution to allow people to play pure DW and not auto lose, because you don't have models on the board turn 1. The houserules solutions are for the other thread I think. Also you can do that already, you just have to field dreadnoughts. I have always consider that BALANCED meant that whatever has both advantages and disadvantages. And that the disadvantages have a real impact, and were not just trivial. Not all formations have any disadvantages beyond, you cannot field these units in the detachment, you must field those. Think of it as Unbound being the norm and battle-forged trades the the requirement to field certain units for the benefits. GW even states that formations work better than units out of detachments: Formations are a special type of Detachment, each a specific grouping of units renowned for their effectiveness on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium.Emphasis mine. So that's how GW intends them. And go figure, the current DW rules are set up just that way. Those are not general DW rules but just the rules for one detachment and one formation. There is no need to use either. Yes you can play pure DW with the only disadvange being that if your opponents decides that they don't want to play you after they agreed to play you, then they can claim the auto win. But the advantage is that you don't have to unpack your models for people that don't actually want to play. All I'm saying is that people who still do not accept that unbound armies are part of the game are unlikely to accept some homebrewed formation. I certainly would have more misgivings about such a formation, especially if I'm not familiar with the codex the units come from, than with an unbound army. Whether you play unbound DWTDA and land raiders or those units in a homebrewed formation, you can find out if your opponent will play it by talking to him. So how would you solve the DW problem, and what penalty would you accept in order to get that? I already proposed a formation in the other thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.