Captain General Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 In the real world the "vanguard' is a force which proceeds the main body as and "advance guard" feeling out the enemy positions and 'rangers' are special operations troops. I've read the fluff around the AdMech named units, but I see no differences in the "usage' of the troop types/names. Am I missing something or are they two just the same troops with differing names? The Special Rules give the Rangers Move thru Cover, but that is all. Their battlefield missions appear to be basically the same on the table-top. Stephen Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317357-rangers-and-vanguard/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnosaur93 Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 you are forgetting rad-saturation on vanguard, which helps them in an up-front role The main difference however is their guns, the vanguard has a short range, but high rate of fire and the ability to inflict bonus damage on any toughness based target. Meanwhile, the rangers are quite long-ranged, and all have precision shots, which allows them to pinpoint the guys carrying different high value gear and such, essentially sniping high value targets. with those things in mind as well, i think the names are very befitting, vanguard are suited to be very "in your face" by all means, and rangers are more of a support unit, weakening the opposition by taking out high value targets from afar Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317357-rangers-and-vanguard/#findComment-4257088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 One thing that drives me alittle nuts is when people look at rangers and think "we should keep this guys long range." It's a rapid fire gun. Do you feel satisfied when your marine are shooting from 24 inchs with your bolt gun killing one dude? No. Do Necrons destroy you from thier max range? No. Plus they have move through cover and scout. This let them easily move up the board and get into rapid fire range. Move through cover is also in a way the armor of the rangers. Vanguard get really slowed down trying to keep a cover save. Often you'll want them to rely on thier armor save. Lastly ranger guns suck so bad when compared to rad rifle; unless your targeting something with 4+ armor or worse. So if give them your heavy weapons you won't be as sad missing out in thier regular shooting. I just don't like that they cost 10 more points :/. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317357-rangers-and-vanguard/#findComment-4257123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Both units should really be costed the same. The Rangers' main niche of Scouting, Move through Cover footsloggers that can deliver arc rifles has been somewhat superseded by Breachers. If costed the same, they would be comparable. At 2 points more per model (22.22% hike), they are definitely sub-optimal. I built all my Skitarii with hoods so the special weapon guys are interchangeable, and I only bothered giving 6 (out of 40) the Ranger guns. This gives me enough to field a full unit in Convocation, and maybe two min arc units if I ever follow through with plans to airdrop them out of my Vendettas. If anything, I feel I have too many arc and plasma guns (5 of each) and not enough rad rifle dudes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317357-rangers-and-vanguard/#findComment-4257565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Both units should really be costed the same. The Rangers' main niche of Scouting, Move through Cover footsloggers that can deliver arc rifles has been somewhat superseded by Breachers. If costed the same, they would be comparable. At 2 points more per model (22.22% hike), they are definitely sub-optimal. Rangers are long-range support, but suboptimal as just a special weapons delivery. The few games I've had, a full ranger squad (with omnispex only) was useful, taking care of all the 4+ dudes. Killing tau pathfinders/firewarriors, wiping out all the drones of the farsight-crisis-drop (rapid fire range), and Omnissiah alone knows what they'll do to guardsmen. Vanguard are superior against many targets, but the limited range will see them dead rather soon, while rangers can stay out of the worst return fire and snipe away for a longer time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317357-rangers-and-vanguard/#findComment-4257574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmimzie Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Not really. Thsoe ranger shots while yes you get to throw dice sooner. It's not many, and it wont really do much, and you'll be spending another 10 points on omnispex. Other units can threaten at a distance if that's what you really want. Plus vanguard with arc rifles can throw dice as well, and seeing as how the unit is effectively 20 points cheaper its easy to take that 15 point arc rifle ^.^. Plus keep rangers in the back is like a waste of points. You just wont do enough sitting at home all day with rangers. Imagine if people kept all thier space marines at 24" range with bolt guns all day; you'd win every game by default. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317357-rangers-and-vanguard/#findComment-4257609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 Rangers aren't long range support and they shouldn't be loaded up with special weapons. Their job is to dodge around in cover at ~15" and snipe special models out of squads. A dead grav-cannon is worth more than three dead bolters. If you just want raw damage output, there are plenty of better options. Buying upgrades does little for them. Omnispex, maybe an arquebus for looks if you really must, but otherwise keep them cheap and your special weapon bitz for the Vanguard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317357-rangers-and-vanguard/#findComment-4257728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted December 21, 2015 Share Posted December 21, 2015 I don't really see value in that role. I mean, a full unit of ten rapid firing into a squad of Marines has about a 50/50 chance of actually tagging that grav cannon. Then they eat rapid fire bolters which a full unit's worth will kill 3 or 4 of them in return. And it just occurred to me what I was going to say in my previous post and lost my train of thought. One thing that would have made Rangers really worth their cost is if they had objective secured as a rule, something currently completely unavailable to Skitarii forces. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317357-rangers-and-vanguard/#findComment-4257860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted December 22, 2015 Share Posted December 22, 2015 Plus keep rangers in the back is like a waste of points. You just wont do enough sitting at home all day with rangers. Imagine if people kept all thier space marines at 24" range with bolt guns all day; you'd win every game by default. Not saying that they should stay back for the entire game, just that they can always fire instead of wasting a shooting phase. They can threaten the entire board on turn 1 (42" threat range), something the vanguard simply can't do. And there will always be squishy backfield units you will want dead ASAP, like markerlights, IG autocannon teams, lootas and such. Read: 4+ (or worse) backfield campers who mostly rely on cover and range, which the rangers can take care of. I've played the 10 rangers + omnispex combo a few times, they always earned back their points. And yes, they're suboptimal against marines, but with every other army, you will find suitable targets. If we were only playing against marines, massed grav kataphrons would be the only really efficient solution. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317357-rangers-and-vanguard/#findComment-4258525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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