Dark Angel Corswain the Paladin?

[xNH Lion 12x]

So, I read the Lexicanum article on Corswain, and was curious about the title he us given. It says he is a Paladin, which is a Company Champion, but that was back in the Legion days, right? Would that title still be accurate and correct? And could someone quote the passage from the book that says that about him? What about him being the Lion's Seneschal?

[xNH Lion 12x]

Bump. Nothing on Corswain?

[aura_enchanted]

Paladin as a title likely dates back to the old order as much of the first legions structure was built upon the knightly order of caliban which lion and Luther were from.

 

In addition corswain had other titles like "hound lord" and "pureblade" likely also titles of some significance to the old order and the way things used to be on caliban before the arrival of the emperor of mankind.

 

It's entirely possible that most of these titles relate to ancient ceremonies, or were earned through military actions and services such as slaying a great beast or defeating an enemy commander in a duel. And were originally for other things. Much like how today Marines earn badges and laurels of merit for actions.

[xNH Lion 12x]

Would it be appropriate to call a Champion of the Dark Angels a Paladin instead of this, or would this only be applicable in certain situations, like with Corswain? Or would all Champions be Paladins? I think Paladin sounds a lot cooler and makes the Dark Angels even more lore-rich. The more their ranks' names and all of that deviate from the Codex Astartes, the cooler and more unique I think they are, to a point ('cause I kinda like the Codex, the idea of it, or both in lore, to a point).

 

Edit: Typo.

[Bryan Blaire]

You can call your figures/characters anything you want whether it be on the table top or in the fluff, as long as for games, your army list references the entries properly.

[xNH Lion 12x]

You can call your figures/characters anything you want whether it be on the table top or in the fluff, as long as for games, your army list references the entries properly.

That's not (Edit:) really an answer. I could call them all the Little Rainbow Men from Middle Earth, but it wouldn't be correct and would sound dumb because of that (and other reasons; haha).

[Bryan Blaire]

 

You can call your figures/characters anything you want whether it be on the table top or in the fluff, as long as for games, your army list references the entries properly.

That's not an answer.

It very much is an answer.

 

Here is another answer to your question of "Would it be appropriate to call a Champion of the Dark Angels a Paladin instead of this, or would this only he applicable in certain situations, like with Corswain?"

Yes.

 

It isn't the respondent's fault if your question fails to elicit the answer you were actually looking for. They still answered your question.

 

The answer is perfectly valid. You can definitely call them Paladins in fluff or on the table top, provided your army list for the table top references the appropriate entries. If you want a different answer, either rephrase your question to give a better indication of the type of answer you want or wait for someone else to respond.

 

Trying to state that an answer isn't an answer just shows a failure of logic.

[HaSY]

Paladin before being upgraded to Lion's Senechal, Hound Lord, Pure Blade

[xNH Lion 12x]

Here is another answer to your question of "Would it be appropriate to call a Champion of the Dark Angels a Paladin instead of this, or would this only he applicable in certain situations, like with Corswain?"

Yes.

There are two questions there. Which is correct?

 

Also, I am asking this question generally, not even thinking about the tabletop and not wanting to consider it, really. I just want to know if all Dark Angel Champions are Paladins, and if not, were they all called this back when the Lion was around, or if both of those things are false, where did the Paladin name come from in the first place, and why is Corswain a Paladin (What does it mean in his case, and any other?)?

 

Paladin before being upgraded to Lion's Senechal, Hound Lord, Pure Blade

I suppose I have no idea what those titles are or what they are given for, and am guessing that you know. Would you care to explain for me?

[Isiah]

xNH, the simple answer as we don't know. As those terms originate in Black Library fiction they are not fleshed out fully nor backed up by what we know from the DA Codex.

 

So thus involves much speculation to fathom out.

 

As with a lot of stuff Dark Angels, there is much shrouded in mystery etc. Which while somtimes frustrating is also part of the fun. So no point in anyone getting hot under the collar over it.

 

From my pov, 'Paladin' although knightly etc, has for me been claimed very successfully by the Grey Knights. Not to say DA shouldn't make use of it too mind. But still, something different might have been better. Just my opinion of course <_<.

[Eternal Warrior]

Unless this has already been stated forgive me. He is also one of the few characters I know of to have entered combat with a Primarch, Curze of all people, and lived to tell the tale. Although he left his sword behind ;). Corswain is a beast and his title of Paladin is both earned and appropriate on the tabletop brother. Do it!!

[xNH Lion 12x]

Unless this has already been stated forgive me. He is also one of the few characters I know of to have entered combat with a Primarch, Curze of all people, and lived to tell the tale. Although he left his sword behind ;). Corswain is a beast and his title of Paladin is both earned and appropriate on the tabletop brother. Do it!!

Perhaps, but I don't particularly care about the tabletop in this case (even though I am about to spend upwards of $150 on it here soon; haha), and he is cool, and I love the name/titles, whatever they mean, I just don't know what calling someone in the Dark Angels a Paladin entails and who would be called one.

 

Edit: I am going through the Lexicanum pages again, but when I am at the GW store, which book should I be looking at to find the passage about him being called a Paladin along with his other titles and if a different one, which book should I look at to read about his fight with Curze and the death of Alajos?

[Isiah]

Your search-fu is weak. You need to be reading these two short stories:

 

1. Savage Weapons http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/savage-weapons-ebook.html

2. The Lion http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/the-lion-ebook.html

[xNH Lion 12x]

Your search-fu is weak. You need to be reading these two short stories:

 

1. Savage Weapons http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/savage-weapons-ebook.html

2. The Lion http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/the-lion-ebook.html

Edit: I didn't really want to buy and read the entirety of either, I was just curious. Haha. But I have both in a cart on the Black Library website, the synopses are just not very informative. What are each about and what will each tell me about Corswain? Which parts of what I want to know are/should be answered in each? And what about By the Lion's Command? That story's synopsis mentioned something about Corswain and being a Seneschal.

[Phoebus]

Some thoughts:

 

“The other was Corswain, Paladin of the Ninth Order, bearer of the Mantle of the Champion.”

Excerpt From: Christian Dunn. “Age of Darkness.” iBooks.

While one could infer from the above that Corswain is both a Paladin and a Champion, I think it's safe to say that the former title pertains to the Ninth Order as a whole. An Order, of course, is a force comprised of multiple Chapters:

 

“The Fourth, Sixth, Ninth, Sixteenth, Seventeenth and Thirtieth Orders are to muster at Balaam.’

‘More than thirty thousand warriors!’ said Tragan, ...”

Excerpt From: edited by Christian Dunn. “The Primarchs.” iBooks.

The next question, then is whether Paladin and Champion are synonymous. Gav Thorpe, author of the novella The Lion, which was a sequel to "Savage Weapons" (wherein Corswain is first introduced) certainly seems to believe so:
 

“The first to enter was Corswain, former Champion of the Ninth Order, recently appointed as the Primarch’s Seneschal.”

Excerpt From: edited by Christian Dunn. “The Primarchs.” iBooks.

Now, are there Paladins - that is, Champions - that represent lower echelons like Companies? Personally, I would argue this was not the case during M31. To begin with, historically, a Paladin has been defined not just as an exemplary warrior, but as a leader, as well:

 

 

pal·a·din

ˈpalədn/
noun historical
- any of the twelve peers of Charlemagne's court, of whom the count palatine was the chief.
- a knight renowned for heroism and chivalry.

1:  a trusted military leader (as for a medieval prince)
2:  a leading champion of a cause

This correlates with what we've seen in the Horus Heresy books thus far. The only instances of Champion being used as a formal rank in the Horus Heresy series are ...

 

“Kunnar, the First Company Champion,”

Excerpt From: Nick Kyme, Lindsey Priestley, Dan Abnett, Matthew Farrer, Mike Lee, Graham McNeill, James Swallow, Anthony Reynolds & Gav Thorpe. “Tales of Heresy.” iBooks. https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/tales-of-heresy/id416137339?mt=11

“The symbol on his right shoulder identified him as an Ultramarine; the bejewelled Crux Aureas crafted into his left as Legionary Champion, Tetrarch of Ultramar and Honour Guard to Roboute Guilliman himself.”

Excerpt From: Christian Dunn. “Age of Darkness.” iBooks.

“I am mighty Torbjorn, company champion of For, ...”

Excerpt From: Various. “Legacies of Betrayal.” iBooks.

Note that, regarding the second example, "Champion" always refers to one of the four Tetrarchs of Ultramar - not as a Company Champion in the conventional, Adeptus Astartes sense. In Know No Fear, when the prospect of Calth becoming a Major World is brought up, it is mentioned that a Champion will have to be designated to represent it... and the question is raised whether said individual will be called a Tetrarch, since there are already four of those individuals.

 

Also note that, regarding the third example, For is one the Vlka Fenryka's Great Companies. Ergo, Torbjorn is a rough equivalent to Corswain (in terms of the echelon being supported).

 

There are informal mentions of "champions", as well, but there is no indication made as to what echelon they represent (e.g., Legion, Chapter, Company):

 

“... bold champions to anchor the files with their ceremonial harness and master-crafted blades.”

Excerpt From: Mike Lee. “Fallen Angels.” iBooks.

“Perhaps he was a champion of sorts,”

Excerpt From: Mike Lee. “Fallen Angels.” iBooks.

“A third beheaded a bullish champion whose neck jetted twin fountains of blood three metres into the air.”

Excerpt From: Graham McNeill. “Angel Exterminatus.” iBooks.

“Rank had its advantages, once in a while. It was good for more than a helmet crest that marked you out to snipers and enemy champions with something to prove.”

Excerpt From: Aaron Dembski-Bowden. “Betrayer.” iBooks.

“To be one of Angron’s bodyguards was no honour, despite how fiercely the World Eaters’ champions had fought for it in the first, optimistic years. ”

Excerpt From: Aaron Dembski-Bowden. “Betrayer.” iBooks.

“He has seen enemy champions carrying this symbol before them, brandishing it like a holy relic.”

Excerpt From: Edited by Laurie Goulding. “Mark of Calth.” iBooks.

“Some sort of champion, most likely.”

Excerpt From: Edited by Laurie Goulding. “Mark of Calth.” iBooks.

 

“The challenge had come from a sword-champion named Lamiad, ...”

Excerpt From: Graham McNeill. “Vengeful Spirit.” iBooks.

“Three more traitor legionaries advanced in the shadow of the Terminator champion, ...”

Excerpt From: Various. “Legacies of Betrayal.” iBooks.

So it doesn't appear that there is a Company Champion in the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy/pre-Second Founding setting. That matches up with what is presented in the Forgeworld Horus Heresy books, as well. The only actual Champions listed in Betrayal are Consuls who hold the office of Legion Champion. Note that "Centurion" is the Legion rank that corresponds with a Captain. Thus, we're not talking about a Champion who is subordinate to the commander of a unit in which he belongs; we're talking about a fellow veteran officer who holds more-or-less equal rank, but does not command warriors of his own.

 

Now, does that mean that you can't use a Paladin in M41? No, not necessarily. Where the modern Dark Angels are concerned there is no "canonical" reference to a Paladin in M41, but that's not stopping me from using said office in fiction that I'm writing.

 

Does a modern Paladin need to be a high-ranking officer, as in M31? Not necessarily. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a precedent for Legion-level offices or titles being used or lower echelons after their division into Chapters. If it were me, though? I'd say the Paladin should be a Master- or Grand Master-level position.

[Bryan Blaire]

NH Lion, it would help people answer your questions better if you would tell us what you are concerned about, if it isn't the table top. Are you wanting to write fan fiction?

 

Following Phoebus's line of reasoning, I would think that it would be the "Chapter Champion" that would hold the title of Paladin in any Unforgiven Chapter, as a spiritual successor to Corswain, and likely some kind of leader/member of the leadership of an order of "sword brothers" organization within the Dark Angels/other Unforgiven Chapter.

[xNH Lion 12x]

NH Lion, it would help people answer your questions better if you would tell us what you are concerned about, if it isn't the table top. Are you wanting to write fan fiction?

 

Following Phoebus's line of reasoning, I would think that it would be the "Chapter Champion" that would hold the title of Paladin in any Unforgiven Chapter, as a spiritual successor to Corswain, and likely some kind of leader/member of the leadership of an order of "sword brothers" organization within the Dark Angels/other Unforgiven Chapter.

I am revising my ranking structure for a Dark Angels Chapter in my clan on Halo: Reach (It is just as nerdy as it sounds, but isn't 40k nerdy, too? Lol.), if which I call myself the Primarch, so when I heard about another unique rank for my ranking structure. Most of the other ranks I have are really Codex-compliant and it's pretty bland. Haha. I wanted to make my ranking structure more Dark Angel-y, so I thought some more rank name changes would make it better.

I hadn't thought about saying why I am curious. Haha. Does that help?

[Harleqvin]

Context. Context. Context. lqtm
With what you just wrote I would give it to a second Number 1 on your Halo clan.

[xNH Lion 12x]

Context. Context. Context. lqtm

With what you just wrote I would give it to a second Number 1 on your Halo clan.

Haha. It's actually a lot of fun. But what?

[Phoebus]

If your intent is to model a clan after the Dark Angels Chapter, then your rank shouldn't be "Primarch"; it should be Supreme Grand Master.

[xNH Lion 12x]

If your intent is to model a clan after the Dark Angels Chapter, then your rank shouldn't be "Primarch"; it should be Supreme Grand Master.

I realize that. There are certain quirks and inconsistencies that have been around for so long and for certain reasons that no one cares. Due to the nature of the whole thing, it can never be perfectly true to lore, and that is acceptable, but if I can change another rank to match the Dark Angels better, that's all you can really do, make it better. And right now, I just want to figure out if I should change the name of my Company Champion to Paladin, and then what should be done with the Chapter Champion rank, as well.

[Isiah]

Well I say do what you want - who's to question you?

 

Why not make up some titles: "Champion of the

Vanquished Tower", "Champion of the Inner Keep", "Paladin of the Sacred Sceptre", Paladin: Blade-Master of the Tower of Angels", Lore-Master Champion of Reliqueries", "Paladin-Champion: Guardian Brother of the Sacred Helm (5th Order)" etc etc.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

If you want to mimick 30K then change. If you prefer 40K leave the ranking as champion. If you don't have a preference than do as you think it is cooler. It doesn't really matter because it's your clan, after all.

[xNH Lion 12x]

If you want to mimick 30K then change. If you prefer 40K leave the ranking as champion. If you don't have a preference than do as you think it is cooler. It doesn't really matter because it's your clan, after all.

Why do you say keep it if I am going for Post-Heresy? That's what we claim to be, Post-Heresy, but in the past we had an Emperor anyway. Haha (he's gone now, though).

And I do think Paladin sounds better since we don't have Grey Knights right now, but not if it's totally wrong. If I went with that, knowing what I do know and nothing more, I would call the Chapter Champion the Master Paladin. How wrong would that be, or is there something that would be better?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Like I said.. it's your clan, there's no wrong or right. You're not re-writing GW cannon for them, you are paying homage to a Chapter you like, in a video game. If Paladin title sounds better and more grand, go for it. Unless your Halo clan is made of die-hard DA fluff-holics you probably won't get any flakk for it. ;)