Long war bat rep final

[JJD]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gBcSf9wYIRU

 

As the topic says it's a link to the long war league final Ravenwing vs Tank heavy AM. Its a good quality video in which they taken time to explain their decision making. I know people have complained in the past that the long war is too 'power gamer' but these lists don't seem too bad. It's certainly worth a look.

[ValourousHeart]

I know this probably isn't the place for this, but that blast vs jink interpretation of the rules feels wrong on so many levels.

 

First off there is the logic that all weapons do the most damage when they hit.

Which is contradicted with blast templates, because you want to miss in order to do most damage.

You want to miss, and you want to miss by a lot.

 

Then there is the game mechanics behind it.

The scatter dice has 4 miss symbols an 2 hit symbols, so the chance for success should be 1/3rd plus your BS minus 2d6.

But by switching the focus to missing you more than double the chances to get the result you want.

And the math for it is 2/3rd plus 2d6 minus your BS.

 

ugg... why can't people see that they are manipulating the rules for their advantage.

[jbaeza94]

Let me get this straight, he aimed at one squad with the hopes of hitting another?

[Isiah]

Sounds like it.

 

But I don't see why missing is manipulating any rules.

 

I'd call a miss that hits 'a lucky hit'. After all you can't predict the direction of scatter - which greatly reduces the chance of a 'lucky hit' unless there are a lot of tightly packed enemy units that you might hit.

[jbaeza94]

The odds of this working are not very good. A few reasons

 

-66% chance it'll scatter

-360 degrees in a circle, you have a about a 45 degree desirable direction, probably like 15 degree to be effective. 12% chance it going the general direction you want, 4% in the effective direction.

-let's assume they keep their squads close, 4 inches at bs 3 and center of the 3" pie on the closest model, you need at least a 6 to just hit, 9 to get the whole pie over the squad. 72% to hit one model, 27% for the whole pie.

 

Multiply assuming 45 degree arc, and to just scatter enough to hit one model 4 inches away. 5% chance you'll hit one model. 2% chance you'll get the whole pie over the squad. 7% the 5" will hit one model from the other squad, 4% it'll center over it.

 

the further the squad, the smaller the arc and the smaller the odds. Why are your squads even close in such a pie heavy army anyways? This is in no way unfair or abuse, because the odds of this happening are not very good. 33% direct hit vs 5% you'll just hit the other squad in our scenario.

 

Edit:

.66 multiplied by (Degree arc)/360 multiplied by probability of desired outcomes (I used a chart that showed chance of getting that number or higher)

 

.66 X (45/360) X .72 (chance of getting an 6 or higher. This is the minimum number needed to hit. 1.5 inches for the disk plus 6 minus 3 for bs is a 4.5" scatter)

 

.66 X .12 X .72 = 5.7%

[dtse]

Yay math!

 

Yea he got lucky. It could have scattered in any direction. But yes he even stated he would rather it hit the ther unit cause they can't jink it and by targeting the first unit he made them jink

[Isiah]

Hmm... Now I am confused. From blast weapons? You don't get Jink from blast weapons as there is no Roll To Hit so it can't be activated.

 

Much watch the batrep :huh:

[Master Avoghai]

Hmm... Now I am confused. From blast weapons? You don't get Jink from blast weapons as there is no Roll To Hit so it can't be activated.

Much watch the batrep :huh:

Sure you get jink.

When your opponent announces that he targets a unit, you can choose to jink before he rolls the scatter die.

 

The problem here is that, if your opponent scatters on another unit, then it's not the unit that made the jink. And since the roll to hit already occured, you cannot say that the new unit is jinking...

[Isiah]

Just reread the rule. Jink is conditional on the unit being SELECTED as a target. Not upon the To Hit rolls - which is just telling you when its done.

 

So maybe that's something I've always been going wrong with :p. Getting too tied-up with the To Hit roll thing not happening.

 

But by RAW it was argued to me that blast doesn't initiate jink as no To Hit roll is ever made. Go figure.

 

But yes clearly the unit scattered into does not get jink as it was never targetted in the first place <_<.

[MasterRaath]

So along those lines, if unit B jinks from an earlier attack then unit A is targeted by a blast, and it scatters onto unit B does B get its save since it was already jinking? Just curious... it has nothing to do with the batrep...

[jbaeza94]

I would say yes

[Isiah]

Yep jink lasts until start of next movement movement phase. It's worth putting a marker down to remember who is jinking.

[NCSUWolf]

It was a blast to play against Austin. Easily one of the best games of 40k I've played, with a lot of back and forth (him siezing, me taking the flank, him chipping down units left and right).

 

As for the discussion on Jinking, it's been answered but I'll weigh in on why I did what I did. Simply put, Jinking in 7th edition is declared when the unit is targeted, before any rolls to hit or scatter (in 6th it was only after wounds were delt that one had to Jink). It's very much a valid tactic (and came up in my first round vs Andrew's Eldar: he elected to not Jink with his flyer as he was hoping my snap fire interceptor wouldn't deal any damage to warrant losing his next turn of shooting).

[ValourousHeart]

Whoa... I wasn't expecting one of the people from the video to chime in.

Great games, I really enjoyed watching them.

 

I am not arguing that it isn't a valid tactic or that you were not being consistent.

What I am saying is that I don't agree with that interpretation of the rules and every time someone tries to explain it to me the logic they use makes even less sense.

 

I am also not as eloquent as others, so I have trouble explaining why this feels so counter intuitive with the rest of the rules for me.

 

How can the unit that ends up under the template not be the target of the the attack?

The typical answer I get is that the reason they can't jink is because they didn't see the shot coming or were somehow not paying attention.

 

Now I thought that I had a great imagination... but obviously I don't.

Do get me wrong, I can easily imagine a 7 foot tall genetically enhanced super solder riding into battle on a huge motorcycle blazing away his boltguns.

But I can't for the life of me imagine him DAYDREAMING at the same time.

[NCSUWolf]

The easiest way for me to think of it is how the shooting phase progresses. You choose a unit that is going to fire it's weapons. Then you choose a target. If you have a template weapon, that means placing the template and then rolling scatter. If a unit that was not previously under the template (friend or foe) is under the final position it is hit.

 

Jinking states when targeted (i.e. selected as the initial target) they are allowed to Jink or no. When it scatters it is the randomness of the shot can hit a unit that was not being directly engaged (bystander, distracted, focusing on incoming fire from another enemy unit).

 

All and all, it's less of a logic argument but trying to keep the rules to as close to black and white as we can.

 

But that said, if you and your group agree on that interpretation, I can see the argument as well :)

[Hidicul]

Look at it this way valorous, I call squad A as my target, place the blast and roll scatter. It scatters away and into squad B. Now since they weren't my target even though they were hit, they don't get to jink. Squad B was collateral damage. Blast weapons don't always hit thiwr target as they can and often do scatter.

[ValourousHeart]

I do understand how blast weapons work... And the math for it works out that you have higher probability to hit something not originally under the template than you do to hit the model originally under the hole.

 

I am not arguing against "lucky deviation" like Isiah said or the likely hood to hit a specific target with scatter like Jbaeza94 talked about.

 

I am arguing that Blast weapons are being given additional effects when they scatter that are not listed anywhere in the rule book.  All anyone can do is point to the rules for blast weapons and then to rules like jink and make a judgment call on how you think those work together.

 

The general consensus is that because blast weapons don't use the normal rules for targeting units, then they therefore don't target units.  As opposed to the alternative that they simply use a different method to determine who is targeted.

 

Then there is the inconsistent stance about what constitutes rolling to hit when it comes to blast weapons.  We both agree that blast templates don't roll to hit, the rules even say that they don't roll to hit.  But you claim that I can't decide to Jink after you roll scatter because that is the to hit roll.

 

Didn't we just say that blast don't roll to hit?

 

I know I am trying to bring light to a big conspiracy...

Blast weapons don't always hit thiwr target as they can and often do scatter.

And this is the clincher for me... blast weapons are more likely to scatter and so to make them more effective we are going to convince everyone that they didn't target the unit about to take damage... it was just luck.  And I guess that means that they get to ignore rules that proc on target.

[JJD]

Congratulations on the win nice to see DAs on top. Have you posted pictures of your army anywhere. They look great on the video but I'd like to see them in more detail.

[NCSUWolf]

Congratulations on the win nice to see DAs on top. Have you posted pictures of your army anywhere. They look great on the video but I'd like to see them in more detail.

Thanks! It was an interesting set of games. I'll see if I can get some shots when I get home from Xmas festivities.

[Hidicul]

I wasn't trying to imply you didn't understand how blast weapons work, I'm sorry if it came across that way. I was trying to find a way you could understand why the squad hit but not actually targeted doesn't get to jink.

[dtse]

And note the other thread. You don't get hot on the reroll of twin linked weapons if the first roll was not a 1. Although you didn't lose anyone from that you did reroll a couple to get 1 and then rolled armour save. FYI.

[ValourousHeart]

I wasn't trying to imply you didn't understand how blast weapons work, I'm sorry if it came across that way. I was trying to find a way you could understand why the squad hit but not actually targeted doesn't get to jink.

Sorry if I came across as a jerk... I know you were just trying to be helpful.

 

It is my problem, I seem to be the only one that thinks of it as abusing the spirit of the rules.

[Tygwyn]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293928-jink-vs-scattered-blast-markers/?hl=%2Bjink+%2Bblast&do=findComment&comment=3770534

 

Doing this on iPad so not sure it will make the link work, but this is the discussion on jink vs blast from the rules forum; hope it helps (but suspect it won't!).

[Master Avoghai]

 

I wasn't trying to imply you didn't understand how blast weapons work, I'm sorry if it came across that way. I was trying to find a way you could understand why the squad hit but not actually targeted doesn't get to jink.

 

Sorry if I came across as a jerk... I know you were just trying to be helpful.

 

It is my problem, I seem to be the only one that thinks of it as abusing the spirit of the rules.

Actually I think that this differentce of interpretation comes from a difference of vision of "easier to hit"

 

You seem to say that you find illogical that a template weapons has "more chance to hit" when it scatters rather than when it doesn't.

 

Like jbaeza94 demonstrated, it has 5,4% chances to hit. (And still, he uses a 90degrees arc, I'd rather consider 45, hence 2,7%)

 

You have 33% chances to hit the initial target + the low scatter ( 2-6 result on the 2d6 since you'll obtain 0-2" max) representing 40% of the 2d6 results (hence 40% of the 66% scatter results) = 33% + 30% = 63% to hit

 

5,4% vs 63% is clearly not "easier to hit"

 

 

BUT

 

It's easier to wound since you have a better save roll.

 

However, only in a limited amount of case. Don't forget that if you have a AP-/6/5 weapon but a better save (like 4+ or 3+) than the 4+ jink save, you don't have to get the jink. So, getting no jink because of a lucky scatter has no effect.

 

And even if it has an effect since you have 14x more chances to hit when you don't scatter, your absence of jink should make 14x more wounds than a hit roll...

 

so finally

 

- you hit less when you scatter

- even if you hit more you're not sure to benefit from the non jink

- if you benefit from the non jink, the sum of hit x wound x save is likely to be inferior because of the initial chances to hit %

 

To me this tactic is not a valid one... Rather a desperate solution you may attempt when you have no other solution...

[dtse]

Well there's lots of things in the game where rules can be "used" to advantage. Someone somewhere writes a blog about how the game could be made more "realistic". For example a giant wraith knight getting a ruin cover save from one tiny piece of the base touching the base of some ruin piece... Yea... For a game that uses true line of sight, that definitely doesn't make sense