Some fluff questions about Isstvan

[Lunar Centurion]

On Isstvan V, would it make fluff-sense for an Iron Hands superheavy to flip, killing everyone but one guy, who gets out, and then starts killing traitors? I was reading through Extermination, and got the idea. Next, did the Iron Hands use MKIV and MKVI? And would this make sense: 

 

Superheavy flips, everyone but the gunner dies. His arm-armor is wrecked in the blast, so he takes it off his commander, snags a boltgun and a combat knife, and then joins some Loyalists (Forming my Tactical Strike team), and then they try to escape Isstvan. Would that be true to the fluff? Or should he just be a normal marine?

 

Finally, were the Iron Warriors on Isstvan? More specifically, Loyalist Iron Warriors? 

[Dantay VI]

Your fluff about the Iron Hands is cool, so run with it. It is likely that they had mark 4 armour, but not mark 6 as this was a prototype armour which had been undergoing testing at the end of the crusade/ beginning of the heresy.

Yes there were loyalist Iron Warriors, in fact in the FH HH book there is a section where there was an hour of confusion within Perturabo's troops as the loyalist elements attacked their traitorous kin.

 

I am sure others will be able to discredit or verify what I have written.

[Olis]

On Isstvan V, would it make fluff-sense for an Iron Hands superheavy to flip, killing everyone but one guy, who gets out, and then starts killing traitors? I was reading through Extermination, and got the idea. Next, did the Iron Hands use MKIV and MKVI? And would this make sense: 

 

Superheavy flips, everyone but the gunner dies. His arm-armor is wrecked in the blast, so he takes it off his commander, snags a boltgun and a combat knife, and then joins some Loyalists (Forming my Tactical Strike team), and then they try to escape Isstvan. Would that be true to the fluff? Or should he just be a normal marine?

 

Finally, were the Iron Warriors on Isstvan? More specifically, Loyalist Iron Warriors? 

 

All Legions, to some degree, had mark four plate. So depicting any line legionary in it is acceptable. And while the Iron Warriors were definitely at Isstvan, I'm failing to recall loyalist IW there. But if others say there were some there, I'll believe them. 

 

As for the flipping superheavy (with only the gunner surviving), we have two issues to address for believability - how to flip the tank and how to kill everyone in such a large vehicle without compromising our gunner. I think this sort of scenario may be useful: Firstly, dealing with multiple crew in multiple locations, the vehicle is targeted by heavy enemy firepower - probably from enemy armour. The driver is killed, the drive mechanisms are disabled and the turret is jammed, effectively bringing the vehicle to a halt with little ability to defend itself. With the vehicle in open terrain and no better off than a bunker, the crew are ordered to abandon the wrecked siuperheavy, as there are titans in the area. Our gunner manages to scramble out of his hatch and off the superstructure but the other crew (a commander and another gunner if it's a fellbade iirc) are killed when titan-grade weaponry strikes down at the disabled vehicle, flipping the burning tank hulk mere metres away from our gunner (flipping it over the gunner himself would be quite cinematic, if unnecessary). He doesn't get away unscathed, but he's alive. Now all he has to do is find cover, preferably near friendly forces. 

 

Now, as you can see, I addressed the second issue with really heavy weaponry - a titan firing it's gun from it's height advantage and not entirely square-on should make the dead tank move some. The only way you could top that is using naval-grade weapons. However, those are even more indiscriminate so I'd say using orbital fire power is probably not a great idea. ;)

[Kilofix]

Flipping tanks? Graviton shenanigans!

[Calas Typhon]

On Isstvan V, would it make fluff-sense for an Iron Hands superheavy to flip, killing everyone but one guy, who gets out, and then starts killing traitors? I was reading through Extermination, and got the idea. Next, did the Iron Hands use MKIV and MKVI? And would this make sense: 

 

Superheavy flips, everyone but the gunner dies. His arm-armor is wrecked in the blast, so he takes it off his commander, snags a boltgun and a combat knife, and then joins some Loyalists (Forming my Tactical Strike team), and then they try to escape Isstvan. Would that be true to the fluff? Or should he just be a normal marine?

 

Finally, were the Iron Warriors on Isstvan? More specifically, Loyalist Iron Warriors? 

 

Yes, they used all marks up to VI with a bit of controversy. as VI seemed to be accessible however not in production on the full outside of the Alpha Legion.

 

Destroyed Tank sounds alright for a bit of fluff, I had something going for that as well when I was working on Death Guard fluff!

 

And finally, the Iron Warriors were on Isstvan during the massacre and were part of the second wave, where they fortified the dropzone and caused massive damage to Salamanders mainly, and the Raven Guard, using warheads to vaporize Vulkan and co. The Iron Warriors that landed on Isstvan were a part of Perturabo's main expedition, therefore would be directly under him, we do not really know what happened to any Loyalist segments in that expedition if there were any, I would presume that some would have escaped the fleet on the way to Isstvan and Joining of the forces of the Warmaster became known, but it is clear that there were no Loyalist pockets in the forces that landed.

 

The thing about the Loyalist parts of the Iron Warriors is that they always seem to be away from the main bulk of the Legion.

[Supe robot gangster #1]

Mk VI armour was undergoing field testing in the Raven guard at the time of istvaan. With some elements of the alpha legion having obtained limited numbers of the armour. No other legion that I'm aware of had access to the mk VI plate, however that wouldn't stop an iron hand from "liberating" some from a fallen ally! Or foe for that matter!

[Lord Tharand]

Mk VI armour was undergoing field testing in the Raven guard at the time of istvaan. With some elements of the alpha legion having obtained limited numbers of the armour. No other legion that I'm aware of had access to the mk VI plate, however that wouldn't stop an iron hand from "liberating" some from a fallen ally! Or foe for that matter!

 

I believe Imperial Fists liberated some from Mars per the retcon.

 

As for a single tank crew member surviving I think that sounds like a good idea.

[Calas Typhon]

Mk VI armour was undergoing field testing in the Raven guard at the time of istvaan. With some elements of the alpha legion having obtained limited numbers of the armour. No other legion that I'm aware of had access to the mk VI plate, however that wouldn't stop an iron hand from "liberating" some from a fallen ally! Or foe for that matter!

 

As far as I am aware MK VI was already field tested, which was sent back to implement changes to the plate iirc and was supplied in full with the return of Corax to Terra.

The Alpha Legion had their own verity of MK VI plate which was separately developed from an early prototype outside of the Mechanicum, if the fluff is still existent.

[Supe robot gangster #1]

 

 

Mk VI armour was undergoing field testing in the Raven guard at the time of istvaan. With some elements of the alpha legion having obtained limited numbers of the armour. No other legion that I'm aware of had access to the mk VI plate, however that wouldn't stop an iron hand from "liberating" some from a fallen ally! Or foe for that matter!

As far as I am aware MK VI was already field tested, which was sent back to implement changes to the plate iirc and was supplied in full with the return of Corax to Terra.

The Alpha Legion had their own verity of MK VI plate which was separately developed from an early prototype outside of the Mechanicum, if the fluff is still existent.

This is true, but at the time of istvaan (before Corax returned to terra) it was only the Ravens and Alphas who were using them in the field! If they'd been in widespread production for the legions at the time the traitor legions would have large numbers of it due to Horus' shenanigans! I wish the other legions had it at the time!

[Calas Typhon]

 

 

Mk VI armour was undergoing field testing in the Raven guard at the time of istvaan. With some elements of the alpha legion having obtained limited numbers of the armour. No other legion that I'm aware of had access to the mk VI plate, however that wouldn't stop an iron hand from "liberating" some from a fallen ally! Or foe for that matter!

As far as I am aware MK VI was already field tested, which was sent back to implement changes to the plate iirc and was supplied in full with the return of Corax to Terra.

The Alpha Legion had their own verity of MK VI plate which was separately developed from an early prototype outside of the Mechanicum, if the fluff is still existent.

This is true, but at the time of istvaan (before Corax returned to terra) it was only the Ravens and Alphas who were using them in the field! If they'd been in widespread production for the legions at the time the traitor legions would have large numbers of it due to Horus' shenanigans! I wish the other legions had it at the time!

 

 

Thing with the Iron Hands in particular relating to this thread, and the Iron Warriors, even though they might eschew from using them, they could possibly be actually given access to using the MK VI plate, especially with their link to the Mechanicum. We don't actually fully know that any other Legion did not or did use them, only that Perturabo pretty much forced the use onto one of the "lesser legions" which happened to be the Raven Guard with whole MKV Armour protection.

 

The Iron Hands, had plenty of patterns in use, many of which were prototypes, such as the Gorgon Pattern, and some which might have been used in other Legions. There is a good opening to put a few MKVI set into the Legion when it comes to recon if you want to put it in the fluff.

[Supe robot gangster #1]

 

 

 

 

Mk VI armour was undergoing field testing in the Raven guard at the time of istvaan. With some elements of the alpha legion having obtained limited numbers of the armour. No other legion that I'm aware of had access to the mk VI plate, however that wouldn't stop an iron hand from "liberating" some from a fallen ally! Or foe for that matter!

As far as I am aware MK VI was already field tested, which was sent back to implement changes to the plate iirc and was supplied in full with the return of Corax to Terra.

The Alpha Legion had their own verity of MK VI plate which was separately developed from an early prototype outside of the Mechanicum, if the fluff is still existent.

This is true, but at the time of istvaan (before Corax returned to terra) it was only the Ravens and Alphas who were using them in the field! If they'd been in widespread production for the legions at the time the traitor legions would have large numbers of it due to Horus' shenanigans! I wish the other legions had it at the time!

Thing with the Iron Hands in particular relating to this thread, and the Iron Warriors, even though they might eschew from using them, they could possibly be actually given access to using the MK VI plate, especially with their link to the Mechanicum. We don't actually fully know that any other Legion did not or did use them, only that Perturabo pretty much forced the use onto one of the "lesser legions" which happened to be the Raven Guard with whole MKV Armour protection.

 

The Iron Hands, had plenty of patterns in use, many of which were prototypes, such as the Gorgon Pattern, and some which might have been used in other Legions. There is a good opening to put a few MKVI set into the Legion when it comes to recon if you want to put it in the fluff.

Also a valid point! I guess it's up to personal preference! I personally wouldn't put mk VI plate on any legion bar Ravens and Alphas, but again that's just due to my own OCDness in such areas! It's the heresy, there is ALOT we don't know about it! I f you model it, it becomes true, stick with whatever fluff you want! So long as you are happy with it! Ultimately it's your army, your backstory, if you want a tank to get flipped and have one survivor, do it! If you want iron hands to use mk VI armour, do it! No one here (or anywhere for that matter) will say you can't!

[Lunar Centurion]

Mk VI armour was undergoing field testing in the Raven guard at the time of istvaan. With some elements of the alpha legion having obtained limited numbers of the armour. No other legion that I'm aware of had access to the mk VI plate, however that wouldn't stop an iron hand from "liberating" some from a fallen ally! Or foe for that matter!

They were the same color, so I suppose he could liberate an arm or two, and no one would be any the wiser.

And the reason for the Loyalist Iron Warriors... I don't know. I need some help

[Calas Typhon]

Mk VI armour was undergoing field testing in the Raven guard at the time of istvaan. With some elements of the alpha legion having obtained limited numbers of the armour. No other legion that I'm aware of had access to the mk VI plate, however that wouldn't stop an iron hand from "liberating" some from a fallen ally! Or foe for that matter!

They were the same color, so I suppose he could liberate an arm or two, and no one would be any the wiser.

And the reason for the Loyalist Iron Warriors... I don't know. I need some help

You could always use them as a group that splinter from the fleet at Isstvan when they see the massacre from Orbit or a group that escape after the massacre (although the would not really be loyalist) however I am not sure how one would be able to pull of a Loyal part on the ground without being utterly annihilated.

As for the Liberation of gear, If you replace the arms or head of the marine with Raven Guard Armour, watch out, their Armour has a tendency to vanish in front of ones eyes if the fluff is to be believed! Last thing you need is an Iron Hand who looks like an utterly magnificent mechanical beast, with invisible body parts!

[Apostle of the 30th Host]

I'm nor really sure there were any loyalist Iron Warriors to be honest.

I can't say I know a lot about the IVth Legion, but wh40k Wiki or Lexicanum is normally good for this stuff as it compiles a lot of the HH Boom stuff as well as novels etc.

 

This is all quite vague so no need for spoilers really as anyone interested in Iron Warriors background will probably know this stuff.

 

From what I can tell, the Iron Warriors did not appear to be very friendly with any other Legion and had become increasingly fed up with almost exclusively being used as garrison troops and to construct fortifications.

As a result, by the time they had to return to Olympia it was the last straw that tipped them over the edge.

They then hear that Horus and 3 other Primarchs had started a rebellion and that Prospero had been burned for its crimes. As a result, they were scared they would suffer the same fate as the Thousand Sons, and with no loyalties to other Legions and discontent with their lot in the Imperium, they were all too happy to join Horus to save/benefit themselves.

 

As a result, I would imagine that the entire Legion would be totally behind Perturabo and Horus.

 

To be honest though, it all happened so quickly so some might change their minds. It is entirely possible that some Iron Warriors were left for dead on Issvan V. Feeling betrayed by their legion and tortured by guilt for their actions they just decide to not tell anyone, repaint their armour and join the fight against Horus as Black Shields.

That obviously leads to certain complications of will the loyalists trust them as ex-Iron Warriors and what happens if anyone finds out they were at Isstvan and didn't just refuse to take part?

Could make for some interesting tortured soul types that want to die honourably for the Imperium out of guilt for betraying it momentarily?

[Lord Asvaldir]

Iron warriors definitely have some loyalists since one of their special characters is a loyalist, however it's hard to believe Preturabo would bring any legionaries to Istvaan if he doubted their loyalty. Far more likely they were far off somewhere remote where they wouldn't cause any trouble, however I haven't read all of massacre so it's possible loyalist IW were at Istvaan.

[Slips]

The best example if Loyalist Iron Warriors outside of those that serve with Kyr Valhen are the ones who were attacked by the Alpha Legion at Paramar.

[lokkorex]

There were loyalist iron waririors, no doubt about that. As early as vol.1 betrayal there's mention of a loyalist warsmith killing that emperors children lord commander from the third legions exemplary battles.

 

Also, perurabo isn't exactly known for his interaction skill with people, so even if he thinks he has the entirety of the fourth legion at his beckon and call, doesn't mean he actually does. I imagine that at least some warsmiths and/or old terran legionnaires didn't give a damn about the lord of irons leadership and decision, and first chance they got would go with the imperials.

[Calas Typhon]

There were loyalist iron waririors, no doubt about that. As early as vol.1 betrayal there's mention of a loyalist warsmith killing that emperors children lord commander from the third legions exemplary battles.

 

Also, perurabo isn't exactly known for his interaction skill with people, so even if he thinks he has the entirety of the fourth legion at his beckon and call, doesn't mean he actually does. I imagine that at least some warsmiths and/or old terran legionnaires didn't give a damn about the lord of irons leadership and decision, and first chance they got would go with the imperials.

 

Problem is, There is no reference to Loyal Iron Warriors in the events at Issvan, which I believe that is what the OP is asking for unless I am wrong. There were Loyalists in every Legion, Iron Warriors had Dantioch as a prime example. I won't say Kyr Vahlen too much, as his Loyalty to the Emperor in my opinion sounds like being Loyal because he is unaware of the outside events of the Heresy and it could go anyway if he was apart of the Legion.

 

The thing with Perturabo is, he interacted well with his subordinates and had their utmost loyalty on the whole even with the whole decimation thing and 'heavy handedness'. We know he did not interact with other Primarchs well save Magnus, but we also know he worked well with Human commanders who occasionally had superiority over him and the ability to command some of his actions, as refrenced in the deployment of garrisons on worlds that other Legions would not do. Perturabo is not a stupid Primarch, he is however paranoid due to the whole Eye of Terror thing, which affects how he deals with and interacts with people and his brothers. The IVth were quite strictly loyal to the Primarch, for various reasons and so many would give a damn about his decision and leadership, even those who did not particularly like him. Again, it would be idiotic for him to not be certain that he had forces loyal to himself when he attacked the first wave during the massacre.

 

It would be interesting to see how Dantioch would path, if he was not abandoned and shunned by Perturabo in the Shardenhold with his brothers.

[lokkorex]

I see your point about istvaan and agree, i doubt there were any loyalist elements going along with him to the massacre.

 

But i wonder how kyr vhalen will play out? Did perturabo really think "oh dang, all those scattered elements of my legion across the galaxy, maybe i should send them a memo about my decision to join horus? Nah, i'll just tell them whenever they show up, i'm sure none of them will cause any trouble!"

I wonder what kyr vhalen will do if he actually got a message from saying " yo, these legions are against us, and these are with us. Oh, and we're totally rebelling and stuff, cause horus is a swell guy!"

 

Btw, merry christmas everybody! May your bellies bloat with mustard-covered pork and dark beer!

[Calas Typhon]

I see your point about istvaan and agree, i doubt there were any loyalist elements going along with him to the massacre.

 

But i wonder how kyr vhalen will play out? Did perturabo really think "oh dang, all those scattered elements of my legion across the galaxy, maybe i should send them a memo about my decision to join horus? Nah, i'll just tell them whenever they show up, i'm sure none of them will cause any trouble!"

I wonder what kyr vhalen will do if he actually got a message from saying " yo, these legions are against us, and these are with us. Oh, and we're totally rebelling and stuff, cause horus is a swell guy!"

 

Btw, merry christmas everybody! May your bellies bloat with mustard-covered pork and dark beer!

 

Its not really known what happened in between the Olympia enslavement and the Dropsite Massacre, only that Perturabo sided with Horus and turned his back on the Imperium, and the whole Lion thing with the super weapons.

 

It is entirely possible that he did in fact send messages and messengers out only after the massacre, as with Krendel to Dantioch. Kyr and co had been own aegis for more than four standard decades if I remember correctly, and they had heard nothing of their Legion. This was more or less straight after the Dropsite massacre too, so It is also possible that Perturabo did not get a chance to send a message out to him, especially considering he was sorting his unstable elements to stay on Isstvan.

 

Just to add: in my opinon it would be illogical to send messages out to forces in the Imperium before an event like Isstvan, if you was about to show your true loyalty and separatism to the Imperium for it would and could endanger the whole operation.

 

I personally believe we will see Kyr as a blackshield or his own renegade force when we hear more from him!

[lokkorex]

I think i agree with you.

 

Just a question, do you have any idea who your avatar is supposed to be? Would like to make that guy in model form in the future and any information on him is appreciated.

[AJB2K3]

According to Garro, the MKVI proto was issued to Garro and his team by Malcador.

MKIV was more promenent.

According to Vision of the Heresy, armour stopped production with the MKV being cobbled and reinforced from MKIV.

The pips in the armour are supposed to be where layers were riveted together instead of bonding after the major armour plants were destroyed.

[Calas Typhon]

I think i agree with you.

 

Just a question, do you have any idea who your avatar is supposed to be? Would like to make that guy in model form in the future and any information on him is appreciated.

I presume he is just an Iron Warriors Warsmith so that Black Library could cover all of the Legions for the cover of Legacies of Betrayal.