Pharos (Spoilders inside)

[b1soul]

I don't see Sanguinius and Curze fighting evenly being an impossibility. Curze up to his point is the only Primarch to contend with two of his brothers and give more than he's got.

You mean detonate a bunch of bombs because he probably realises he's going to get carved up by two enemy primarchs?

 

One of those primarchs (the Lion) had already put him in a coma via slashed throat/blood loss at the end of their previous 1 on 1 encounter.

 

I think Curze is formidable...that has plainly been established. To suggest that he was getting the better of the Lion and Guilliman at the same time is a bit...strange. Curze couldn't even survive his 2nd encounter with the Lion (well...Curze barely pulled through in the emergency room, but he was unconscious and bleeding out on the ground before his men carried him off)

 

 

Curze outright tells sanguinius, that he (Curze) outmatches him (sang) in skill at arms, as he does most of his brothers, whilst also stating he could not kill him if he wished to, which relates in part to Curze knowing how sanguinius is going to die as they have shared the same visions.

 

 

Did I hear that correctly...Curze thinks

 

he has greater skill-at-arms than Sanguinius? Curze is a lethal but unrefined brawler/murderer. The Lion remarks that there's nothing of skill in Curze (as he trash-talks Curze in their first encounter)...skill-at-arms is not how I would describe Curze

 

 

I find this rather bizarre and likely a delusion issuing from Curze's insanity

[Calas Typhon]

 

I don't see Sanguinius and Curze fighting evenly being an impossibility. Curze up to his point is the only Primarch to contend with two of his brothers and give more than he's got.

You mean detonate a bunch of bombs because he probably realises he's going to get carved up by two enemy primarchs?

 

One of those primarchs (the Lion) had already put him in a coma via slashed throat/blood loss at the end of their previous 1 on 1 encounter.

 

I think Curze is formidable...that has plainly been established. To suggest that he was getting the better of the Lion and Guilliman at the same time is a bit...strange. Curze couldn't even survive his 2nd encounter with the Lion (well...Curze barely pulled through in the emergency room, but he was unconscious and bleeding out on the ground before his men carried him off)

 

 

Curze outright tells sanguinius, that he (Curze) outmatches him (sang) in skill at arms, as he does most of his brothers, whilst also stating he could not kill him if he wished to, which relates in part to Curze knowing how sanguinius is going to die as they have shared the same visions.

 

 

Did I hear that correctly...Curze thinks

 

he has greater skill-at-arms than Sanguinius? Curze is a lethal but unrefined brawler/murderer. The Lion remarks that there's nothing of skill in Curze (as he trash-talks Curze in their first encounter)...skill-at-arms is not how I would describe Curze

 

 

I find this rather bizarre and likely a delusion issuing from Curze's insanity

 

 

But he pretty much fought the Lion and Robute with ease (considering his opponents) at the same time in Unremembered Empire, irregardless of his first encounter

[ZebraM]

I get the feeling that Russ and the Rout (once their fleet is repaired) will go out and try and find Horus and his legion but they'll be diverted/mislead by the Alpha Legion again and we could see a proper battle between the two legions as well as Alpharius/Omegon and Russ.

[b1soul]

 

But he pretty much fought the Lion and Robute with ease (considering his opponents) at the same time in Unremembered Empire, irregardless of his first encounter

I remember they fight, Curze nicks the Lion and Guilliman nicks Curze...nothing serious IIRC. Curze then detonates bombs and leaves the scene. I don't know about "Curze was taking on two enemy primarchs with ease". That's your (IMO premature) conclusion. It's like saying Guilliman was holding off Angron and Lorgar "with ease". Guilliman only managed to do so initially for a relatively short time. After a while, he ended up getting wrecked. If Curze had not detonated his bombs...I really doubt he's going to beat 2 primarchs, one of whom is enough to beat him 1 on 1.

[Calas Typhon]

 

 

But he pretty much fought the Lion and Robute with ease (considering his opponents) at the same time in Unremembered Empire, irregardless of his first encounter

I remember they fight, Curze nicks the Lion and Guilliman nicks Curze...nothing serious IIRC. Curze then detonates bombs and leaves the scene. I don't know about "Curze was taking on two enemy primarchs with ease". That's your (IMO premature) conclusion. It's like saying Guilliman was holding off Angron and Lorgar "with ease". Guilliman only managed to do so initially for a relatively short time. After a while, he ended up getting wrecked. If Curze had not detonated his bombs...I really doubt he's going to beat 2 primarchs, one of whom is enough to beat him 1 on 1.

 

 

Sorry, let me rephrase, I have been up all night, therefore very tired and ease was the wrong word to use.

 

He pretty much fought and held the Lion and Robute back well enough, considering his opponents, irregardless of his first and second encounter.

 

What would have happened if he had not fled? who knows because it did not go to that conclusion.

 

I will also add. If the battle continued, would any of the Primarchs have still lived? You know.. considering the whole point of the fight was to lure the Lion and Guilliman into a death trap.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

 

I don't see Sanguinius and Curze fighting evenly being an impossibility. Curze up to his point is the only Primarch to contend with two of his brothers and give more than he's got.

You mean detonate a bunch of bombs because he probably realises he's going to get carved up by two enemy primarchs?

 

One of those primarchs (the Lion) had already put him in a coma via slashed throat/blood loss at the end of their previous 1 on 1 encounter.

 

I think Curze is formidable...that has plainly been established. To suggest that he was getting the better of the Lion and Guilliman at the same time is a bit...strange. Curze couldn't even survive his 2nd encounter with the Lion (well...Curze barely pulled through in the emergency room, but he was unconscious and bleeding out on the ground before his men carried him off)

 

 

Curze outright tells sanguinius, that he (Curze) outmatches him (sang) in skill at arms, as he does most of his brothers, whilst also stating he could not kill him if he wished to, which relates in part to Curze knowing how sanguinius is going to die as they have shared the same visions.

 

 

Did I hear that correctly...Curze thinks

 

he has greater skill-at-arms than Sanguinius? Curze is a lethal but unrefined brawler/murderer. The Lion remarks that there's nothing of skill in Curze (as he trash-talks Curze in their first encounter)...skill-at-arms is not how I would describe Curze

 

 

I find this rather bizarre and likely a delusion issuing from Curze's insanity

While I do agree that Curze was fighting a losing battle, the ability to contend with two Primarchs and do more damage to them than they did to him is significant. Especially when the only other example of a 2-on-1 fight had Guilliman driven back and defeated. And while the Lion did defeat Curze in their second encounter, Curze defeated the Lion in their first. I'd also add that Sanguinius has no impressive feats of strength or skill that mark him above his other brothers other than a statement of him being the best.

[Kol Saresk]

Does Curze actually have the highest primarch duel tally? He's fought the Lion, Guilliman, Vulkan, Corax at Isstvan with Lorgar, and now Sanguinius He's only missing a few to complete his set

You forgot Dorn.

It also makes him the least deadly serial killer of all times. A perfect portrayal of the Night Lords.

So what does that say about the Lion who has only fought the same Primarch three times and has yet to kill him?

There's a reason I don't like arbitrary statements like this because when you get down to it, the only two Primarchs to successfully kill other Primarchs are Fulgrim and Curze and Curze killed Vulkan 999 different ways to Sunday. There, boom, Curze has the highest Primarch kill tally.[/endrant]

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

But he pretty much fought the Lion and Robute with ease (considering his opponents) at the same time in Unremembered Empire, irregardless of his first encounter

I remember they fight, Curze nicks the Lion and Guilliman nicks Curze...nothing serious IIRC. Curze then detonates bombs and leaves the scene. I don't know about "Curze was taking on two enemy primarchs with ease". That's your (IMO premature) conclusion. It's like saying Guilliman was holding off Angron and Lorgar "with ease". Guilliman only managed to do so initially for a relatively short time. After a while, he ended up getting wrecked. If Curze had not detonated his bombs...I really doubt he's going to beat 2 primarchs, one of whom is enough to beat him 1 on 1.

Sorry, let me rephrase, I have been up all night, therefore very tired and ease was the wrong word to use.

 

He pretty much fought and held the Lion and Robute back well enough, considering his opponents, irregardless of his first encounter.

 

What would have happened if he had not detonated the bombs? who knows because it did not go to that conclusion. Unless I am wrong however, Curze was actually hitting the Lion back quite evenly in their first encounter which could have lead to anything if it was not for the subordinate stabbing him, as much as some people may say otherwise.

 

I will also add. If the battle continued, would any of the Primarchs have still lived? You know.. considering the whole point of the fight was to lure the Lion and Guilliman into a death trap.

Yeah, in that first encounter, Curze actually had his claws at the Lion's throat until he was stabbed in the back and after that, neither could gain the advantage and they fought until they couldn't stabd and they were both dragged from Tsalgualsa and the Lion had scars on his throat from that encounter.

 

The second fight, the Lion(again) ambushed Curze, but this time was able to hospitalize him.

 

The third time, the Lion(once more) ambushed Curze and Curze, who had literally just woken up from a coma not only fought through his entire flagship but was holding his own against the Lion until he had one of his rare moments of lucidity and felt supreme shame that he had dragged his sons into a slaughterhouse(in the exact opposite of Angron who just shrugged it off) and the shame caused him to flee from the battle where he then spent the next year killing Dark Angels and leading the Lion on a fool's errand throughout the lower decks.

 

Literally none of this can be used to create explicit statements about whih Primarch is better because it is all circumstantial.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

There's a reason I don't like arbitrary statements like this because when you get down to it, the only two Primarchs to successfully kill other Primarchs are Fulgrim and Curze and Curze killed Vulkan 999 different ways to Sunday. There, boom, Curze has the highest Primarch kill tally.[/endrant]

 

 

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i65/kieran_m/1416529557023927879_zpsbhdbk538.jpg

[Arkangilos]

 

 I'd also add that Sanguinius has no impressive feats of strength or skill that mark him above his other brothers other than a statement of him being the best.

 

You mean, besides him beating the snot out of one of Khorne's top blood thirsters? Not once, but twice? Besides that, that's the ONLY time we've seen him fight until this, and so far the authors seem content on making Curze out to be the best primarch out there. Or extremely lucky. 

 

It's crap that Sanguinius has been poorly written (in my opinion, of course), to where he feels pity rather than wrath, and lacking skill against Curze despite having been described as a beast in combat. This isn't to say that I want him to be crazy awesome at everything, but he's supposed to be one of the better fighters, and by this point he is supposed to be bringing the wrath of the Emperor down on the people that he should think killed him. Sanguinius is supposed to have the dual aspect of Hope and Wrath. When one shuts down the hope (by killing the Emperor, or rejecting the Emperor) he brings the wrath of the Emperor down on them. 

 

Though, I guess I'm ok with the fight being a standstill with the "they could see their future moves" explanation. It's still a tad disappointing. 

[Calas Typhon]

 

 

 I'd also add that Sanguinius has no impressive feats of strength or skill that mark him above his other brothers other than a statement of him being the best.

 

You mean, besides him beating the snot out of one of Khorne's top blood thirsters? Not once, but twice? Besides that, that's the ONLY time we've seen him fight until this, and so far the authors seem content on making Curze out to be the best primarch out there. Or extremely lucky.

 

 

Even Lorgar brutalized Khorne's favourite bloodthirster An'ggrath, who is arguably on par/better than Khabooty depending on who you ask.

 

But anyway, its not about making him out to be the best, but more even with his brothers? when it comes to encounters I suppose. It is like Black Library wish to keep all the Primarchs on the same level, giving them wins/losses depending on who is writing about who.

 

I won't comment on the rest of your post, because I believe you are somewhat correct, It is absolutely illogical that in a position that Sanguinius was is, he did not do what he should have. And how he seems to be portrayed is well out of character from what we have heard and seen.

[Arkangilos]

Wrong post, lol

[Kol Saresk]

Eh, I kind of somewhat have to disagree with it being out of character. Primary reasons are 1.)It is still a matter of Sanguinius fighting his darker rage. Sure, it came out in full force towards the end of Fear to Tread, but since then he's spent a year sitting on his butt doing nothing but customer service, which I will tell you right now is one of the most stressful jobs out there because of the sheer amount of stupidity you have to deal with. I know veterans who would rather be back in BCT with drill sergeabts breathing down their necks than have to deal with customers. So Sanguinius has literally spent the last year doing nothing but building patience.

 

He has also spent the last year being haunted by visions of his death at Horus' hands and has since developed a philosophy that no one is bound by fate and it is never too late to be redeemed. That's partially why he didn't want to kill Curze then, even though he would regret it just a few minutes later. Because even in Curze, he still saw hope and he was willing to give it a chance.

 

Of course, five minutes later, some dead Sanguinary Guard and a disarmed Azkaellon, he's gone back to his Red Angel of Wrath and is demanding that Guilliman find the Lion and that both are coming back to Macragge and no one is going to rest until Curze is dead.

 

So on the one hand, it wasn't a total flip flop even though it was somewhat different from what we were used to. On the other hand, the fact that we only saw Point A and Point B and none of the transition involved, it certainly gives that appearance that it was a rather sudden change of events.

[Azkaellon3]

I'd say in a fair fight sang would beat curze. He is described one of the only primarchs who could last long against angron and he was the only primarch Horus really feared.

 

But besides that curze never truly fights fair. He's a madman and who could say what a madman would do?

And of course every primarch has its strengths and weaknesses and being a madman i would consider one of curze major advantages because it makes him almost unpredictable.

[Arkangilos]

I'd say in a fair fight sang would beat curze. He is described one of the only primarchs who could last long against angron and he was the only primarch Horus really feared.

 

From what I understand they said, this fight was relatively fair, minus some armor.

 

because it makes him almost unpredictable. 

 

In this case it seems like they could both perfectly predict each other. Though I have to say, I actually like the idea of that.

 

"HA! I SAW THAT COMING! TAKE THIS!"

 

"HAHA! i SAW THAT RETALIATION COMING! Now eat my claws!"

 

"LMAO You cannot beat me! I saw that in my vision!" 

[Kol Saresk]

 

I'd say in a fair fight sang would beat curze. He is described one of the only primarchs who could last long against angron and he was the only primarch Horus really feared.

 

From what I understand they said, this fight was relatively fair, minus some armor.

because it makes him almost unpredictable.

 

In this case it seems like they could both perfectly predict each other. Though I have to say, I actually like the idea of that.

 

"HA! I SAW THAT COMING! TAKE THIS!"

 

"HAHA! i SAW THAT RETALIATION COMING! Now eat my claws!"

 

"LMAO You cannot beat me! I saw that in my vision!"

You should read the mistborn series

[helterskelter]

Just to point out Curze has had the most primarch vs. Primarch air time (I knew the thread would do what it's done you could scent it a mile off, thanks Guy! ;) )

He has fought in the books or has had fights with (not mentions of duels, anyone can have a duel) Dorn, Corax, Vulkan, Roboute, lion, and now sanguinius. Not one other primarch has fought in the books any more that 3 others (though if I'm wrong I'll yield the point happily), not that this is indicitive of his skill but at least he actually fights his brothers.

 

Now where's the joker meme that says "the lion says he's loyal and no one bats an eye, But Curze says he's a better fighter than X and everyone loses their minds"

[hopkins]

Wrong thread

[Kol Saresk]

Just to point out Curze has had the most primarch vs. Primarch air time (I knew the thread would do what it's done you could scent it a mile off, thanks Guy! ;) )

He has fought in the books or has had fights with (not mentions of duels, anyone can have a duel) Dorn, Corax, Vulkan, Roboute, lion, and now sanguinius. Not one other primarch has fought in the books any more that 3 others (though if I'm wrong I'll yield the point happily), not that this is indicitive of his skill but at least he actually fights his brothers.

 

Now where's the joker meme that says "the lion says he's loyalconsorts with daemons and no one bats an eye, But Curze says he's a better fighter than X and everyone loses their minds"

;)

[Legatus]

 

- 20,000 Nightlords fleeing from Thramas Arrive and study the Pharos over Months before making a weel planned and devestating assault of the Ultramarine company stationed there.

 

 

Ooh, let me guess:

 

 

At one point, a Night Lord makes a somewhat admiring remark about the Ultramarines' formations/coordination/response time, before the Ultramarines are invariably beaten.

 

 

That is kinda how these encounters between traitors and Ultramarines go, isn't it? Every. Single. One.

 

 

Also, Curze has a great nickname for Guilliman. "The Avenging Beancounter."

 

That would have been funnier if the title "Avenging Son" had not previously belonged to Dorn (IA IF), with much more legitimacy behind it than when Dan had applied it to Guilliman. Dorn had spent the Scouring hunting down traitors, full of vengeful wrath, painting his armour black, ignoring the political developments on Terra. That was an "Avenging Son". Guilliman defended Ultramar from invading Word Bearers and World Eaters, then crafted the concept for the Imperium Secundus. Where is the Avengening going on?

 

 

Also, boy, did that "Imperium Secundus" plot go nowhere fast. This wans't a complete waste of our time and money at all. "Remember that time when Guilliman did nothing during the Heresy? Good times!"

[KJB]

Was there a specific short or audio drama set before this novel detailing what happened to the scout Oberdeii when he went into the depths of the Pharos? It's referenced a few times in the Novel that the Lion swore him to secrecy - Have I missed something? Or will all be revealed in the next book which is supposedly a book of short stories about Imperium Secundus?

[Marshal Loss]

Not as far as I know. As the novel goes along, the influence the mountain has on the people/space marines that go within is somewhat explained, although never fully.

[Skalpynock]

Well, as much as I dislike saying it,

 

I'm grateful Dantioch died. At long last, off with that stupid "Silver Skulls are secret Iron Warriors successors" based on nothing more than a passing heraldic similarity. I liked the character though, but I didn't expect him to survive long enough to see the siege.

 

[Calas Typhon]

Well, as much as I dislike saying it,

 

I'm grateful Dantioch died. At long last, off with that stupid "Silver Skulls are secret Iron Warriors successors" based on nothing more than a passing heraldic similarity. I liked the character though, but I didn't expect him to survive long enough to see the siege.

 

 

At least someone has the same view as myself.

 

I am surprised he even lived through Unremembered Empire.. considering he was basically dead and made of dust anyway.

 

Thank Christ he did not live until the Siege, that would have pushed it too far.

 

It was literally getting to a point where he would end up like Bruce Forsyth, he just would not die.

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

I'd say in a fair fight sang would beat curze. He is described one of the only primarchs who could last long against angron and he was the only primarch Horus really feared.

 

From what I understand they said, this fight was relatively fair, minus some armor.

 

because it makes him almost unpredictable. 

 

In this case it seems like they could both perfectly predict each other. Though I have to say, I actually like the idea of that.

 

"HA! I SAW THAT COMING! TAKE THIS!"

 

"HAHA! i SAW THAT RETALIATION COMING! Now eat my claws!"

 

"LMAO You cannot beat me! I saw that in my vision!" 

 

Reminds me of my old D&D days in Uni, when our high level games effectively ended up with our wizards sitting down with their greatest enemies and drinking cups of tea as they played chess with all of their abilities. I had an Ardent (basically, a Psionic Mind Mage who followed certain Ideals or abstract theorems) who was basically able to trump card any victory (and I don't mean, "and I cast a million fireballs per turn which ignore any resistance and immunity to fire you have" kinds of victory, the victory in the sense that I've literally just removed the entirety of the universe and put it in a snow globe for me to shake) by being able to go back to a time before any events took place, and kill the dude immediately before the events took place.

 

And had a Save Game trick where he could send his pet rock into a pocket of time, and have him reappear hours later as if no time had passed (for the pet rock), and if he couldn't sense his master (clever pet rock), it would trigger a nested ability to revert time to a few moments before (those few moments before being hours previous).

 

That DM to this day still doesn't let me play in his games after the time after I played a character who could drain peoples charisma, add it to himself, and use that Charisma to manifest a power with a higher save difficulty than could ever be passed (he would spend days just looking around places for high charisma people to drain). The DM (same as the one who banned from playing a Time Ideal Ardent as before) didn't think that letting me purchase a pair of tickets (scrolls of Planar Travel) to a Plane and back which progressed through time ten times quicker than the plane we were on would be an issue, as it wasn't a powerful enough scroll to let me bring the others - effectively just saw them as a get out of jail free card - giving us a week to prepare for the final invasion of the homeland, my dude popped off to fast time plane, juiced up on Charisma, and came back - with a Charisma (normally, a massive Charisma score on the highest level characters is in the low 40's) in the realm of around the middle two thousands, I stood up and hurled some gibberish at the devil horde come to invade and camped outside the anti-teleport bubble and impressive physical defenses that my other party members had set up (literally, a town without walls was now capable of withstanding a multiplanar seige). These Devils, with Pit Fiends and generals only slightly less powerful than the Lords of Hell who had sent them just picked up their gear without a complaint, turned home, and left a magic mirror that would allow them to be called to defend against other threat.

 

Let's just not talk about the time when I got a pet elder evil either.

 

I miss D&D, where Scry and Die soon turned into a game, where rather than kill the enemy Wizard we'd scry him and steal his stuff then bampf out while he was wandering around looking for the cup of tea he'd literally just made and turned away to wash the spoon. I think we broke our DM's.