Pharos (Spoilders inside)

[Memento Of Prospero]

Does Curze actually have the highest primarch duel tally? He's fought the Lion, Guilliman, Vulkan, Corax at Isstvan with Lorgar, and now Sanguinius He's only missing a few to complete his set

You forgot Dorn.

It also makes him the least deadly serial killer of all times. A perfect portrayal of the Night Lords.

So what does that say about the Lion who has only fought the same Primarch three times and has yet to kill him?

There's a reason I don't like arbitrary statements like this because when you get down to it, the only two Primarchs to successfully kill other Primarchs are Fulgrim and Curze and Curze killed Vulkan 999 different ways to Sunday. There, boom, Curze has the highest Primarch kill tally.[/endrant]

You miss my point. Every "super fight" cheapens the heresy when both walk away with nicks and bruises. And the whole Cruze kills Vulkan 4-5 times on Macragge is pretty stupid too. Just because he is immortal, sudden he can now die a dozem times over and never do any serious harm to Cruze.

This series needs to go back to it's roots, not turn into 40k novels.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

- 20,000 Nightlords fleeing from Thramas Arrive and study the Pharos over Months before making a weel planned and devestating assault of the Ultramarine company stationed there.

 

Ooh, let me guess:

 

 

At one point, a Night Lord makes a somewhat admiring remark about the Ultramarines' formations/coordination/response time, before the Ultramarines are invariably beaten.

 

 

That is kinda how these encounters between traitors and Ultramarines go, isn't it? Every. Single. One.

 

Also, Curze has a great nickname for Guilliman. "The Avenging Beancounter."

That would have been funnier if the title "Avenging Son" had not previously belonged to Dorn (IA IF), with much more legitimacy behind it than when Dan had applied it to Guilliman. Dorn had spent the Scouring hunting down traitors, full of vengeful wrath, painting his armour black, ignoring the political developments on Terra. That was an "Avenging Son". Guilliman defended Ultramar from invading Word Bearers and World Eaters, then crafted the concept for the Imperium Secundus. Where is the Avengening going on?

 

 

Also, boy, did that "Imperium Secundus" plot go nowhere fast. This wans't a complete waste of our time and money at all. "Remember that time when Guilliman did nothing during the Heresy? Good times!"

The Imperium Secundus plot line: Meeting, Sanguinius becomes Emperor, Pharos explodes.

 

Truly an in depth fleshing out of the Age of Darkness.

[b1soul]

While I do agree that Curze was fighting a losing battle, the ability to contend with two Primarchs and do more damage to them than they did to him is significant

The Lion's ability to beat him 1 on 1 is "significant" as well...let's not cherry-pick his fights

 

Don't recall Curze doing more damage. Only minor damage was exchanged

 

Especially when the only other example of a 2-on-1 fight had Guilliman driven back and defeated.

If Curze had simply fought on and not blown up the room, would Curze not have been driven back and beaten? Certainly possible

 

And while the Lion did defeat Curze in their second encounter, Curze defeated the Lion in their first.

No...the authour has declared the 1st fight a draw.

 

I'd also add that Sanguinius has no impressive feats of strength or skill that mark him above his other brothers other than a statement of him being the best.

Curze does?

 

Yeah, in that first encounter, Curze actually had his claws at the Lion's throat until he was stabbed in the back

R1 was a draw according to the authour...he states that we don't know what would have happened had Corswain not intervened. In his words, the Lion could've smashed a rock into the side of Curze's head

 

the only two Primarchs to successfully kill other Primarchs are Fulgrim and Curze

What?

 

He pretty much fought and held the Lion and Robute back well enough, considering his opponents, irregardless of his first and second encounter.

Can't ignore his previous loss to the Lion. Not sure what you're implying. His previous loss to the Lion would indicate that his odds against the Lion and Guilliman would be even worse. It was wise of him to detonate bombs

 

I will also add. If the battle continued, would any of the Primarchs have still lived? You know.. considering the whole point of the fight was to lure the Lion and Guilliman into a death trap.

His ability to set up traps before a fight and detonate bombs is irrelevant to his close combat prowess...which is the main attribute being compared here

[helterskelter]

Which b1soul, I alluded to, in that curze in a none duel setting has fought more of his brothers than any other. Only Curze has been written to have fought 6 others. And on multiple occasions. Pretty much the best example of a primarch vs primarch fighter we have in the books at this juncture

[Emperor's Furor]

I wouldn't say he fought Dorn or Corax.

[b1soul]

Which b1soul, I alluded to, in that curze in a none duel setting has fought more of his brothers than any other. Only Curze has been written to have fought 6 others. And on multiple occasions. Pretty much the best example of a primarch vs primarch fighter we have in the books at this juncture

I'd argue that Curze's fights with other primarchs are starting to become rather pointless since UE.

 

EDIT: and agree with above post. Curze did not "fight" Corax...and it seems that he "fights" Dorn in the same manner the Lion "fights" Russ when he puts him to sleep

[helterskelter]

Even taking out dorn and corax he's still just above the others. And if that's also the case there need not be any more primarch fights until mortarion and the khan, and sanguinius fighting horus because we know when the rest die and have fights of significant value. Mainly post heresy

[b1soul]

Even taking out dorn and corax he's still just above the others.

He's fought more times...doesn't necessarily make him better or more deadly

 

He's fought the Lion

R1: draw

R2: loss

 

He's fought the Lion and Bobby G

Inconclusive / interrupted by explosion

 

He's fought a witless Vulkan equipped with items from Bobby G's exotic arms & armour collection

Victory

 

He's very briefly fought Sang

Inconclusive

 

I haven't read Pharos...but if Curze is power armoured and Sang is wearing only a breastplate, I wouldn't be too confident if I were Sang. Power armour kinda matters...but I'd have to read to confirm

[helterskelter]

I have read pharos. The whole of the chapter featuring the 2 is blooming awesome.

[Augustus]

I wish Curze, and Ultramar would just. go. away. Seriously.

[b1soul]

Seems pretty mediocre overall...I'll give it a shot as something not written by Nick Kyme

[Augustus]

I couldn't get through it and I got through Kyme if that is any indication b1soul. Then again it might have something to do with Curze, and Ultramar. Maybe if you're a fan of that?

[b1soul]

I couldn't get through it and I got through Kyme if that is any indication b1soul. Then again it might have something to do with Curze, and Ultramar. Maybe if you're a fan of that?

Not really...I'm just hoping Haley's prose is at least tolerable

[depthcharge12]

Well I just read that Dantioch spoiler -_- crap lol

 

But I was about to remark that he almost seemed like the brother that Alexis Polux had, but then lost. I want to say that Dantioch had a paternal or oncular vibe about him towards Polux, yet they regard each other as brothers.

[Calas Typhon]

 

He pretty much fought and held the Lion and Robute back well enough, considering his opponents, irregardless of his first and second encounter.

Can't ignore his previous loss to the Lion. Not sure what you're implying. His previous loss to the Lion would indicate that his odds against the Lion and Guilliman would be even worse. It was wise of him to detonate bombs

 

I will also add. If the battle continued, would any of the Primarchs have still lived? You know.. considering the whole point of the fight was to lure the Lion and Guilliman into a death trap.

His ability to set up traps before a fight and detonate bombs is irrelevant to his close combat prowess...which is the main attribute being compared here

 

 

The first point was he was still holding his own against the Lion and RG. You could say that he lost against the Lion in the second one, however what about the first encounter? The one where he, as Kol pointed out, had his hands around the Lions throat before he receives a sword in the back. Either fight before was pointless when we talk about Primarchs, because they are so different in every encounter and different through every author.

 

Just Ignore the second point, The point I think I was trying to make was, providing that Curze did not flee, he had the upper hand with the Bombs and could have killed the Primarchs regardless of his prowess, I was pretty tired when I wrote it.

[b1soul]

 

The first point was he was still holding his own against the Lion and RG. You could say that he lost against the Lion in the second one, however what about the first encounter? The one where he, as Kol pointed out, had his hands around the Lions throat before he receives a sword in the back. Either fight before was pointless when we talk about Primarchs, because they are so different in every encounter and different through every author.

ADB has clearly stated that the 1st encounter was a draw...the Lion could've cracked Curze with a rock had Corswain not intervened. This is not my theory...this is a statement by ADB. I'm re-typing this as you seem to have missed it.

 

You could even argue that the Lion underestimated Curze in their 1st encounter based on the dialogue, but that would be my interpretation.

 

I'm not implying any primarch is "better"...but it doesn't take 2 primarchs to hurt Curze. 1 was enough to hospitalize him...almost killed him

 

Just Ignore the second point, The point I think I was trying to make was, providing that Curze did not flee, he had the upper hand with the Bombs and could have killed the Primarchs regardless of his prowess, I was pretty tired when I wrote it.

Sure...doesn't mean Curze would've done better than Guilliman vs. Angron/Lorgar had Curze not detonated the bombs and continued fighting with blades

[Calas Typhon]

 

 

The first point was he was still holding his own against the Lion and RG. You could say that he lost against the Lion in the second one, however what about the first encounter? The one where he, as Kol pointed out, had his hands around the Lions throat before he receives a sword in the back. Either fight before was pointless when we talk about Primarchs, because they are so different in every encounter and different through every author.

ADB has clearly stated that the 1st encounter was a draw...the Lion could've cracked Curze with a rock had Corswain not intervened. This is not my theory...this is a statement by ADB. I'm re-typing this as you seem to have missed it.

 

You could even argue that the Lion underestimated Curze in their 1st encounter based on the dialogue, but that would be my interpretation.

 

I'm not implying any primarch is "better"...but it doesn't take 2 primarchs to hurt Curze. 1 was enough to hospitalize him...almost killed him

 

Just Ignore the second point, The point I think I was trying to make was, providing that Curze did not flee, he had the upper hand with the Bombs and could have killed the Primarchs regardless of his prowess, I was pretty tired when I wrote it.

Sure...doesn't mean Curze would've done better than Guilliman vs. Angron/Lorgar had Curze not detonated the bombs and continued fighting with blades

 

 

ADB also said that the VIth won in Betrayer.. when it clearly was not the case, for the VI would be wiped out, and Russ would be dead during the night of the wolf, that and he abandoned what he went to do, to escape from Angron and the XII. That was a statement by ADB but was clearly shown otherwise. It was the case in the first encounter too some might say, since the Lion would have been killed with Curze strangling him to death.  

 

Again though, you can't really talk about the previous fights when talking about Primarch fighting, because there is no fluidity to it due to having different authors for different accounts.

 

As for the second comment, I did say to ignore that, I was tired when I wrote it and was only explaining where I was going.

 

Also, this will be my Last post on this topic, because I have a feeling it is on a downward slope. 

[helterskelter]

I feel some may have missed the point of pharos, here are some of the conclusions I interpreted

 

 

 

1. The Night Lords now know that Curze and Sevatar are both alive, which although most are out for themselves, some realise a certain unity is required to get out the other side alive in numbers that matter. Should be expecting another DA vs. NL skit

2. The pharos isn't completely obliterated, although how it functions now is nowhere near previous operational capacity, it also sets up a 40k plot point.

3. Sanguinius, after serious discussion with Curze, has realised it's time to get something done, he's not mopey and this will, I speculate, lead to progression.

4. If the NL getting the jump on pharos wasn't enough to get Roboute into action to defending his people and starting a proper Curze hunt nothing will. But I'm expecting to see a significant change in the next novel with a dressing down from sang.

5. Speculate one more novel with the DA, BA and the NL making an exodus from ultramar. Robby might send some chaps with them to relay any news of the big E with them.

 

 

 

In my opinion Guy Haley has dealt with the subject matter very well, and the fact I got through this novel in 12 hours, meant for me it was pretty unputdownable

[Kelborn]

It is interesting how one book review can turn into such a heated discussion.

 

Although I haven't read Pharos, I do agree with some of you that I find it a bit weak that the Pharos is the reason why the 'Nids are coming. Like A D-B said in another thread, the Astronomicum were a way better reason for that.

 

I also agree that (though I love the NL's), it seems to me that Curze is in every second HH book nowadays. Ok, the last ones were about the Imp Sec, where he lurked some time but I would really appreciate seeing some books about the rest of the Legions. Correct me if I'm wrong but for me it seems that the I, V, XIV, XV and XVI are unattended. Yeah, there was Scars but beside that?

 

I think that we will see a novel about the DAs very soon but the rest? Are the WS just heading towards terra? Where's the Death Guard? What about the Thousand Sons? Every Legion is fleshed out by BL but the TS just stay on the planet of sorcerers? And the main villain, the Sons of Horus...what are they doing actually?

 

Again, correct me if I missed something as I haven't read every single book, short story, eBook, etc. But I haven't read something here about them as well.

 

Hope that the next DA book will be good. Would like to read some fresh stuff about them as i.e. the XVIII turns out to be nuts nowadays. :/

[Marshal Rohr]

Number 2 is the main reason the whole book falls flat.

[Kol Saresk]

@Helterskelter:

 

 

I mostly ahree with that. Pharos was supposed to be a season finale type affair, the problem was that there wasn't much of a season. From what I can gather, Imperium Secundus was supposed to incorporate the Shadow Crusade, the Thramas Crusade, the Battle of Signus, and then the direct aftermath, which was the establishment of Imperium Secundus, the discovery of Vulkan's fate and his resurrection, as well as the beginning of the end for the Imperium Secundus.

 

What kills it is that it was so ridiculously spread out and that ultimately, the Night Lords ended up having a larger impact on Imperium Secundus than either the Word Bearers or World Eaters even though they were hardly written about. This is literally the first novel that comes close to being a Night Lords novel.

 

So what really kills this book, ends up falling completely out of Guy Haley's control in my opinion.

 

The primary plot was simply that the Night Lords decided to investigate the Pharos and claim it for themselves.

 

The side plots that tied into it were how Sanguinius coped with being named "emperor", Guilliman attempting to control it all behind the scenes and how the Lion's isolationism helped to threaten the alliance.

 

From there, we simply have the Ruinstorm and how its effects of blocking the Astronomicon helped contribute to the belief the Emperor is dead and thus they should save what they can and how quickly the Imperium Secundus has become so reliant on the Pharos that as soon as it is threatened, they drop everything to rush to its defense.

 

The resolution for these is that

 

1.)Guilliman's efforts have effectively ended the Shadow Crusade

 

2.)The consequences of the Thramas Crusade has caused the Night Lords to flee into Ultramar

 

3.)the Lion's disappearance has broken his brothers' trust in him

 

4.)Sanguinius' choice to no longer be an idle pawn is now threatening his alliance Guilliman and thus the unity of the Imperium Secundus.

 

5.)Where before the Night Lords were hopelessly fractured and abandoned by Curze, now they are rallying behind the chance to save Sevatar as well as Curze himself deciding he should try to unify the Legion.

 

6.)With the loss of the Pharos, the Imperium Secundus will slowly begin to crumble as the Ruinstorm will once more completely disrupt travel and communications, forcing each planet to become an isolated fortress.

 

At least that's what I pulled out of it.

 

 

Also, Curze has been in 3 novels, Guilliman has been 3, the Lion has been 3, Sanguinius has been in 2, Horus has been in 5, Fulgrim has been in 4, Ferrus has been in 1, Vulkan has been in 3(although he was dead in Deathfire), Khan has been in 1, Alpharius 2, Corax 1, Perturabo 1, Russ 5, Magnus 3, Dorn........ technically only 2 that he had major involvements, but he had direct appearances in no less than 7 novels(making him ironically the most seen Primarch), Angron 1, Mortarion 3 and the list ends with Lorgar being in 2.

 

Obviously, this list excludes short stories, novellas, audiobooks and anthologies.

 

Interestingly enough, the appearance of the Legions does not coincide with the appareance of the Primarchs. For example, the Night Lords have only been a major feature in one novel, while the Iron Hands have been in at least three that I can recall off the top of my head.

 

Note: Obviously this list is subjected to what I can recall as well as my personal interpretation of "major appearance", such as I do not count Sanguinius' three pages of doing nothing and a mention in the Dramatis Personae of Horus Rising as being a major appearance.

[Silent Observant]

The Imperium Secundus is not over! The brothers are called back to maccragge this Is just a nail in the coffin. It is confirmed that gav Thorpe will be writing Angels of Caliban, over the lion and dark angels in the imperium Secundus and the wider war. According to rumors, this will be the last imperium Secundus book, where I bet the lion will be a critical factor in dissolving it. And we also have more tie ins with red-marked that will go over aeonid thiel against the world eaters, word bearers, etc still in ultramar. We also have the upcoming anthology war without end, which is rumored to be the imperium Secundus anthology spoken of in previous years... Long story short, imperium Secundus has not fallen, there is still coverage to be done, (hopefully with a lot more BA's and DA's) before the final bell tolls.

[Calas Typhon]

The Imperium Secundus is not over! The brothers are called back to maccragge this Is just a nail in the coffin. It is confirmed that gav Thorpe will be writing Angels of Caliban, over the lion and dark angels in the imperium Secundus and the wider war. According to rumors, this will be the last imperium Secundus book, where I bet the lion will be a critical factor in dissolving it. And we also have more tie ins with red-marked that will go over aeonid thiel against the world eaters, word bearers, etc still in ultramar. We also have the upcoming anthology war without end, which is rumored to be the imperium Secundus anthology spoken of in previous years... Long story short, imperium Secundus has not fallen, there is still coverage to be done, (hopefully with a lot more BA's and DA's) before the final bell tolls.

 

Joy...

[Arkangilos]

I'm just ready for another Blood Angel book that explains when and how the Blood Angels get to Terra before Horus and his party, and how they get there before the Ultramarines.

One that hopefully doesn't make Sanguinius look like a moping sad kid (not Pharos, but some of the other stories) that lets the ones that betrayed him go (Pharos).

 

I mean, to follow the example given earlier how how he works on customer service, you'd think he'd be ready to bring wrath down upon the people making his life difficult.

[caladancid]

I'm just ready for another Blood Angel book that explains when and how the Blood Angels get to Terra before Horus and his party, and how they get there before the Ultramarines.

One that hopefully doesn't make Sanguinius look like a moping sad kid (not Pharos, but some of the other stories) that lets the ones that betrayed him go (Pharos).

 

I mean, to follow the example given earlier how how he works on customer service, you'd think he'd be ready to bring wrath down upon the people making his life difficult.

 

Yeah I am also very interested to see how the Blood Angels get to Terra in time for the defense. Doesn't seem like it will be a happy parting between the three Primarchs.

 

I definitely disagree with the Astronomicon being a better reason than the Pharos for the eventual invasion. Why does that make any more sense? If the Tyranids are way older than we know, wouldn't it make sense they are attuned to look for tech way older than anything humans have made?

 

On the subject of Guy Haley's writing, I will just add one more comment at the risk of coming off fanboyish. The description of what a normal soldier thinks of the Legions in light of the ongoing HH is some of the best writing so far in the series. I enjoy reading about SMs and more SMs (hey, it is the HH so I'm in the right spot) but the storyline with Mericus was great with its demonstration of what the effect on humans must have been.