Pharos (Spoilders inside)

[HaSY]

 

I'm just ready for another Blood Angel book that explains when and how the Blood Angels get to Terra before Horus and his party, and how they get there before the Ultramarines.

One that hopefully doesn't make Sanguinius look like a moping sad kid (not Pharos, but some of the other stories) that lets the ones that betrayed him go (Pharos).

 

I mean, to follow the example given earlier how how he works on customer service, you'd think he'd be ready to bring wrath down upon the people making his life difficult.

The Lion will probably give him the use of his Xenos transporter thing.

 

Guess what, in 40k, the device was still in the Rock

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

I'm just ready for another Blood Angel book that explains when and how the Blood Angels get to Terra before Horus and his party, and how they get there before the Ultramarines.

One that hopefully doesn't make Sanguinius look like a moping sad kid (not Pharos, but some of the other stories) that lets the ones that betrayed him go (Pharos).

 

I mean, to follow the example given earlier how how he works on customer service, you'd think he'd be ready to bring wrath down upon the people making his life difficult.

The Lion will probably give him the use of his Xenos transporter thing.

Guess what, in 40k, the device was still in the Rock

Well that isn't entirely true. Mostly because it is a daemon, not a device. :P

[b1soul]

Actually reading the book now...this is quite mediocre, probably because I've just recently read Ragnar Blackmane. Quality of Haley's writing really pales in comparison

[Yodhrin]

I'm reading it at the moment myself, and one thing is bugging me because I don't know if I'm reading too much into it or if I'm missing something.

 

 

The little "debate" between Sanguinius and Curze about the scattering of the Primarchs...I don't get it. From what I can tell Guy Haley doesn't seem like a hardcore God Botherer, but that scene is the clone of every fallacious, straw-stuffed caricature of the atheistic view of the idea of monotheistic deities being both benevolent creators and all-knowing architects(ie, that the two are incompatible concepts). I mean you even have a literal angel espousing the apologist view and a twisted, stinking, amoral, rotten-toothed psychopath presenting the caricature of the atheistic view.

 

What's up with that? On first reading it seems like he just incongruously inserted a deliberate insult to a portion of the readership into the novel, like someone copy-pasted a couple of pages from a Chick Tract in there, but surely not. The thing is though, I'm struggling to see another way to read it.

 

[goosey_j]

Actually reading the book now...this is quite mediocre, probably because I've just recently read Ragnar Blackmane. Quality of Haley's writing really pales in comparison

 

Funny, because I just finished Ragnar Blackmane today and it was... okay. Not for lack of characters (I enjoyed all of them, as standard with an ADB book), just it didn't really seem to go anywhere. 

 

"Ragnar Blackmane

 

Remembering Things.

 

LE Novel £50"

 

... yeah.

[b1soul]

 

Funny, because I just finished Ragnar Blackmane today and it was... okay. Not for lack of characters (I enjoyed all of them, as standard with an ADB book), just it didn't really seem to go anywhere. 

 

"Ragnar Blackmane

 

Remembering Things.

 

LE Novel £50"

 

... yeah.

Quality of ADB's prose is well beyond Haley's IMO

 

I'm not taking into account the ridiculous price tag of BL's novellas...simply judging the merits of the writing

[Frostmourne]

So.. Sorry for interrupting a Curze is a bad boy discussion but,

 

Did Polux do anything amazing in this book other than be on the front cover?

[helterskelter]

So.. Sorry for interrupting a Curze is a bad boy discussion but,

 

Did Polux do anything amazing in this book other than be on the front cover?

He was learning to allow his more human side to take control so he could better use the pharos, took a good few night Lords out before he got hung on a torture rack. He escaped largely unscathed but very nearly lost his tongue

[Frostmourne]

Ouch.

[Hergrmir]

Hmm, I have to say I'm pretty mixed on the novel. I'm actually a pretty big fan of the Guy Haley BL stuff I've read so far, and I thought as far as the writing went, it's not his best but it's certainly readable enough. I think it was hamstrung a bit by fairly sudden switches between action and exposition. I really hate this idea that fights are the time to have a conversation, though at least both Sanguinius and Curze realised the pointlessness of hitting each other, given their precognition and the fates they both see coming.

 

I thought that scene was pretty well done, though I didn't care for Sanguinius pulling his blow. While ostensibly it reflects their difference - Cruze sees the future and has no hope because of it, Sanguinius sees the future and hopes anyway - it actually just underlines that fate is, in this instance, inevitable, given what we the audience knows about the conclusion of this and their visions. I think if Sanguinius had actually tried to strike him down, and Curze triggered that explosion or somehow got out of it, it would show both that Sanguinius would try to fight his fate, and that Curze would spiral even deeper as the possibility that he's actively contributing to the future of his visions eats away at him.

 

The characterisation of the Night Lords was pretty good. I can take it at face value that the Ultramarines managed 5:1 kill ratios. Not only were they defending a fortification, they were also an actual army, rather than a disorganised, if numerous and deadly, gang. The Night Lords are unqestionably terrifying killers etc. etc. but there are consequences for their actions, and you get a sense of their failures following through from their behaviour. The creaking of their ships in ADB's trilogy picked up on that, too. Of course, narratively it doesn't really matter because mostly it's mooks who die off screen and the Pharos is ruined anyway, but still. I think Haley managed to also do what he said in the afterword, which is to show how monsters are made, without confusing explanation with justification.

 

But I think, much like Curze's claim that he could handily beat Sanguinius, his claim that the presence of slums even in the perfect kingdom makes Guilliman just as bad should be taken part of his rhetorical attempt to make Sanguinius doubt. No doubt Guilliman's model of civilization has its problems, but to suggest that that makes the Ultramarines and the Night Lords moral equals is laughable - and Curze knows it, I'll bet. Haley's characterisation of that broken angel thing hits the mark.

 

As to the whole Second Empire thing, I do think it suffers mainly from coming out of nowhere, and BL's scheduling meaning that it just sort of shuffled along forgettably. They had to do more work at the beginning to make us care about it, I think.

 

On a sidenote, Haley is really ruthless with his characters. There are plenty of the characters who get some first person screen time who come to unkind ends, or even fairly mundane forgettable ones. I'm not sure if it's interesting, or just sort of looses its teeth because it keeps happening.

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's pretty fair to say the Ultras would have a good kill ratio behind defenses while being commanded by Polux.

 

It's ridiculous that the Night Lord ambush with however many dudes (I think the ultra reported 46 and rising) on the ultramarine unit of 15 only killed 1 guy and lost them 6 from the initial bolter exchange. 

 

Honestly not my favorite portrayal of Night Lords. Most of them felt very saturday morning cartoony; Krukesh is mustache twirling and evil, Skraivok is pretty much Starscream, glaive-wielding bro is just evil and crazy. The Night Lords as a whole seemed grossly incompetent, only able to accomplish things with having hugely superior numbers and elaborate ruses.

 

I'm also not sure why the glaive brother got the daemon weapon, as it didn't really affect his character much; he killed and tortured people obsessively both before and after getting the sword. The character is so unrelateable that his being possessed doesn't create any sympathy to the point where his brother mercy killing him wouldn't have been out of place from the very start of the book. Maybe if the "good" brother got the weapon and was twisted and then the older brother who always protected him as kids on Nostramo had to kill him and he got snapped out of his nihilism as a result or had an arc of some sort it would have been better. 

[Kol Saresk]

It's ridiculous that the Night Lord ambush with however many dudes (I think the ultra reported 46 and rising) on the ultramarine unit of 15 only killed 1 guy and lost them 6 from the initial bolter exchange.

Breaching shields versus total lack of cover.

 

Honestly not my favorite portrayal of Night Lords. Most of them felt very saturday morning cartoony; Krukesh is mustache twirling and evil, Skraivok is pretty much Starscream, glaive-wielding bro is just evil and crazy. The Night Lords as a whole seemed grossly incompetent, only able to accomplish things with having hugely superior numbers and elaborate ruses.

Night Lords are probably the legion least likely to do well against other Astartes. I was honestly surprised when I heard they are considered to be one of the more competitive rulesets because of this. As for their potrayal, they're also somewhat shallow. Their better portrayals usually have to be subtle. Talos, the Hypocrite; aspires to nobility but behaves like a savage. Kellenkir, the Nihilist; Rather more traditional in that he carries the Legion's nihilist belief that the universe is made of suffering and it is his duty to spread that knowledge. Kellendval, the Traditionalist; a line soldier who truly believes in the idea of only using terror as a weapon. Krukesh, the Ambitious; the man who wants it all and sees the sudden absence of leadership as his chance to sieze the throne. Skraivok, the Paranoid; he jumps at shadows, believing his men are constantly out to get him, even believes his seniors just want to use him and whenever he makes a deal, he looks for the backdoor out of it. Think Cyrion, but without the sadism.

 

They are all so similar, but only subtly different. The Night Lords Legion is a pretty easy legion to get, and while there are shades of difference, the ends of the spectrum aren't very far apart. It isn't Batman at one end and Imperiex at the other. Instead it's more like you transition from Punisher to Darkseid.

 

I'm also not sure why the glaive brother got the daemon weapon, as it didn't really affect his character much; he killed and tortured people obsessively both before and after getting the sword. The character is so unrelateable that his being possessed doesn't create any sympathy to the point where his brother mercy killing him wouldn't have been out of place from the very start of the book. Maybe if the "good" brother got the weapon and was twisted and then the older brother who always protected him as kids on Nostramo had to kill him and he got snapped out of his nihilism as a result or had an arc of some sort it would have been better.

Actually, this one is even easier. Skraivok was hoping to get out of the deal with the daemon and still getting what he wanted by giving the sword to Kellenkir in the hopes they would be stuck together. And then, at a later date, he could kill Kellenkir and be done with the sword while still getting everything he bargained for. But as he found out, that wasn't going to happen.

 

And there was a change in character but again, it was subtle. Pre-sword Kellenkir was not a sadist. He saw torture as a way of enlightening his victims to the truth of the universe, that life was misery and torment. He held this view so strongly that he even planned on teaching this lesson to his own brother in a similar manner. Post-sword Kellenkir was a sadist. He actually took joy from making his victims suffer and where before he was a tortured soul/penitent, now he only lived for his self-enjoyment. Again, shallow and subtle.

 

As for the brothers killing each other, you were supposed to relate to Kellendval, not Kellenkir. Kir might have done the protecting on Nostramo, but Val did the protecting in the Legion as his brother's mind slowly detoriated. The mercy killing was simply Val having to face reality, similar to the relationship of the Gecko brothers in the original Dusk till Dawn movie where Clooney spends the movie trying to curb Torantino's insanity only to put him down after he becomes a monster that reflects his inner nature.

 

Kir was always a monster, the sword just brought it out and made Val face the fact the brother he remembered from his childhood had never left Nostramo.

 

Also, Kir killing Val would have been rather shallow since even back when they were ambushing Ultramarines at the beginning of the book, Kir was already planning to kill his brother. So it just would have been a demonstration of how far he had gone rather than any kind of "redemption" act.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

Breaching shields versus total lack of cover.

 

The ultras had 5 shields for 15 men against roughly 50 guys. Weight of fire alone should have crushed them, but the Night Lords ambushed them on top of that. I agree that the Night Lords' conventional tactics wouldn't make them that efficient at killing other marines, but that doesn't mean they suck at being marines in the first place. In fact, the whole "used to scaring people, bad at fighting marines" argument gets weaker the further from Isstvan 5 you go. They certainly have experience at fighting marines, and as super soldiers should be able to reason out what works against themselves fairly well. In the case of the ambush, the Night Lords for sure had been part of the Thramas Crusade, while the Ultras may have been at Calth; they had the experience.

 

 

 

 Their better portrayals usually have to be subtle. Talos, the Hypocrite; aspires to nobility but behaves like a savage. Kellenkir, the Nihilist; Rather more traditional in that he carries the Legion's nihilist belief that the universe is made of suffering and it is his duty to spread that knowledge. Kellendval, the Traditionalist; a line soldier who truly believes in the idea of only using terror as a weapon. Krukesh, the Ambitious; the man who wants it all and sees the sudden absence of leadership as his chance to sieze the throne. Skraivok, the Paranoid; he jumps at shadows, believing his men are constantly out to get him, even believes his seniors just want to use him and whenever he makes a deal, he looks for the backdoor out of it. Think Cyrion, but without the sadism

 

You mention subtly a lot and I think that my main issue is that there really isn't a lot of it in Pharos compared to the Night Lord series. Krukresh and Skraivok are stereotypical of the VIII and almost tropey with their defining traits: ambition for someone else's spot and paranoia, even Kellenkir takes the penchant for torture and just runs with it. The characters fall pretty flat in terms of dimension and nuance compared to the original gang from the ​Covenant.

 

 

 

Actually, this one is even easier. Skraivok was hoping to get out of the deal with the daemon and still getting what he wanted by giving the sword to Kellenkir in the hopes they would be stuck together. And then, at a later date, he could kill Kellenkir and be done with the sword while still getting everything he bargained for. But as he found out, that wasn't going to happen.

 

And there was a change in character but again, it was subtle. Pre-sword Kellenkir was not a sadist. He saw torture as a way of enlightening his victims to the truth of the universe, that life was misery and torment. He held this view so strongly that he even planned on teaching this lesson to his own brother in a similar manner. Post-sword Kellenkir was a sadist. He actually took joy from making his victims suffer and where before he was a tortured soul/penitent, now he only lived for his self-enjoyment. Again, shallow and subtle

 

Imo Kellenkir was a sadist (his brother remarks on it at one point iirc), but even if he wasn't, the change is so negligible that it doesn't create any actual difference. He does tell other people about his outlook, but no one seems to care; the change went unnoticed by other characters, while his actions remained the same. Because he was so undimensional as a character, him being possessed doesn't really mean anything to readers as his actions don't change and no one cared about him to start with. If its just meant to show Skraivok is always looking for a backdoor, then there was other scenes that showed it.

 

 

 

The mercy killing was simply Val having to face reality, similar to the relationship of the Gecko brothers in the original Dusk till Dawn movie where Clooney spends the movie trying to curb Torantino's insanity only to put him down after he becomes a monster that reflects his inner nature.

 

Not too sure about Kellendvar's killing of his brother supposed to be wake-up call, as he calls him plainly evil far before that.

[Blindhamster]

No he doesn't.

 

 

He fears that kellenkir is just evil but is unable to face the truth

[d@n]

the book made me think. is curze actually the most powerful psyker? as her is the only one in the warhammer universe that can see the true thread of the future. everyone else can only see possible futures the emperor and chaos god included.

[Hergrmir]

the book made me think. is curze actually the most powerful psyker? as her is the only one in the warhammer universe that can see the true thread of the future. everyone else can only see possible futures the emperor and chaos god included.

I'm not sure that's true; I think Curze certainly thinks the future he sees is accurate (in that it's unchangeable) - which is part of what drives him so nuts. Certainly, he at least in part hoped Sangunius was going to kill him because then it would show him the miserable course of the future that he was plagued with could be otherwise.

[helterskelter]

Isn't curzes bag generally that he knows when everyone is going to die. A rather specific form of precognition

[Mazryonh]

So do the scenes between Guilliman and Sanguinius in this novel have any elements of this classic movie clip showing two characters arguing about which of them holds more authority in an organization?

 

*SNIP*

 

"Don't ever go over my head again, pal!"

[Kol Saresk]

So do the scenes between Guilliman and Sanguinius in this novel have any elements of this classic movie clip showing two characters arguing about which of them holds more authority in an organization?

 

*SNIP*

 

"Don't ever go over my head again, pal!"

Not exactly. There is a bit where Sanguinius voices his opinion that he should be kept in the loop more to help keep up the charade, but by the end of the novel due to Curze's confirmed existence, Sanguinius demands an end to the charade and that if he is to be emperor, then he will be obeyed as an emperor. Another motivator is the fact that the Lion, who is supposed to be the Lord Protector and thus in charge of situations such as Curze and Pharos, is gone the entire novel, gallavanting off and doing who knows what.

[SkimaskMohawk]

No he doesn't.

 

 

He fears that kellenkir is just evil but is unable to face the truth

Sorry, yea the section says 

 

"for a long time he had thought Kellenkir insane....Kellendvar was beginning to think that was not the case. He was beginning to fear that his brother was simply evil."

 

So yea, he fears that he's evil, but he already accepts that his brother is insane and that the legion as a whole are monsters. This goes back back to the point that there's really no moment of realization for Kellendvar, because he already accepts all the relevant points of his brother long before killing him

[Mazryonh]

 

Not exactly. There is a bit where Sanguinius voices his opinion that he should be kept in the loop more to help keep up the charade, but by the end of the novel due to Curze's confirmed existence, Sanguinius demands an end to the charade and that if he is to be emperor, then he will be obeyed as an emperor. Another motivator is the fact that the Lion, who is supposed to be the Lord Protector and thus in charge of situations such as Curze and Pharos, is gone the entire novel, gallavanting off and doing who knows what.

 

I see, it's just that the video I linked is a classic scene from a well-known movie between two characters who don't normally mince their words and who, like Sanguinius and Guilliman, need each other's help to keep a lid on things.  In case anyone wants to see it for themselves, it's from the 1995 film Casino where Robert De Niro's and Joe Pesci's characters have a heart-to-heart in the Las Vegas desert.

 

Disagreements between the Primarchs could well lead to their own three-way civil war since two out of three aren't particularly enamoured of the Imperium Secundus, so even in these "friendly conversations" the stakes are high.  Let me guess, did one of them get mad enough to bang on Guilliman's "big family table" with enough force to damage/break it?  Or did nothing of the sort happen there?

[Blindhamster]

No nothing like that happens. When original heart to heart has sanguinius being very calm and insisting it's all a charade, he doesn't want to be set above his brothers and says he wouldn't have been worthy of the title warmaster either. Guilliman is angry because his plans have failed and sanguinius effectively calms him down.

 

At the end though sanguinius effectively says he's had enough, they made him emperor, and if they want that to continue they'll obey him. He's angry because he was kept out of the loop on what was happening and because the lion has failed miserably at defending the realm despite it being his job.

 

Get the distinct impression once they get back he'll be saying he's leaving to be honest.

[depthcharge12]

My bet is that the Lion was out looking for Russ to get together for a big bully beat down on Horus, thinking that he'll head toward Ultamar since he doesn't know the Emps is alive. Once he and Russ kiss and make up, Russ will tell him about Terra.

 

Sangy will get ticked and head out looking for the Lion and get an opportunity to go towards Terra, possibly bumping into the Scars along the way.

[goosey_j]

I really didn't have a problem with the way the Night Lords were portrayed in this novel, and that's coming from someone who really liked ADB's trilogy. The fact of the matter is that not every single Marine can be deep and interesting. This is especially so in a legion that's whole bag is "we like to torture and kill people for fun".

 

Look at Ramsay Bolton from the Game of Thrones series. Is he a deep character? Nope. Is he someone we enjoy watching on screen because of how :cussed up he is? Hells yes. Roose on the other hand, is a bit more mysterious and cunning, and has a bit more depth. 

 

The Night Lords to me are a lot like the Boltons. You've got your Ramsays, and you've got your Rooses. If it was either solely one way or the other, it would be boring, but thankfully we have both, thanks to different authors. I personally would get really tired of reading about noble but brutal conflicted psychopaths all the time. Sometimes, a story just requires some bad dudes. And in the case of Pharos, they were enjoyable enough to carry the story through.

[Lars Skywolf]

In regards to the Night Lords being incapable. They're not bad, just unsuited.

 

One of the Iron Hands had a good analogy on picking the tool for the job.

 

"Can you kill a man with a rifle?"

"Yes."

"Can you kill a man with a shovel?"

"Yes."

"Can you dig a hole with a shovel?'

"Of course."

"Can you dig a hole with a rifle?"

"..."

 

The quote was about using human auxiliaries in a war against Eldar who were messing up their bionics. But it works so well for all legions too. You wouldn't send the Death guard on a lightning fast attack. You wouldn't send world eaters as infiltrators. You wouldn't send Raven Guard as attrition defence (unless your Horus and feel like bullying your brother who doesn't like how you do things).

 

Night Lords do well against enemies that feel fear or can be surprised, as an aside, their tactic is to divide and obliterate the enemy. They don't have the speciality of the wolves, the sons or the ultras that let them win via tactical genius. Nor, I suspect, the numbers to just wipe them out in a fair fight.