Pharos (Spoilders inside)

[Lord Tharand]

I have no quite finished the book and I'll save a detailed response until then.  However, I've thought the book was really enjoyable and I've liked the various characters and how they've been portrayed.  I've felt as if they've added depth to all three of the primarchs present.  I'm not an Ultramarines fan by any stretch but I really enjoyed their various characters in the book. 

 

Pharos gets two thumbs up from me.

 

More detailed thoughts when I finish reading.

[Arkangilos]

In regards to the Night Lords being incapable. They're not bad, just unsuited.

 

One of the Iron Hands had a good analogy on picking the tool for the job.

 

"Can you kill a man with a rifle?"

"Yes."

"Can you kill a man with a shovel?"

"Yes."

"Can you dig a hole with a shovel?'

"Of course."

"Can you dig a hole with a rifle?"

"..."

 

The quote was about using human auxiliaries in a war against Eldar who were messing up their bionics. But it works so well for all legions too. You wouldn't send the Death guard on a lightning fast attack. You wouldn't send world eaters as infiltrators. You wouldn't send Raven Guard as attrition defence (unless your Horus and feel like bullying your brother who doesn't like how you do things).

 

Night Lords do well against enemies that feel fear or can be surprised, as an aside, their tactic is to divide and obliterate the enemy. They don't have the speciality of the wolves, the sons or the ultras that let them win via tactical genius. Nor, I suspect, the numbers to just wipe them out in a fair fight.

They did have the numbers, according to what people are saying. And before anyone says that they aren't as good at fighting space marines, a half talon of Night Lords killed an entire squad of Blood Angels without taking casualties. Well ok, one died, but not to the Blood Angel tactical squad.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that the ultras had poorly written plot armor that only makes the Night Lords look bad.

 

At least when the BA died in Soul Hunter it was because they were ambushed completely, and there was that awesome line Talos said that helped. And one on one the BA seemed good, but never had that chance (they were ambushed)

[Legatus]

I have played Night Lords as my 'main' Chaos army since 2nd Edition (with World Eaters a close second). For a time I even played them more often than my Ultramarines.

 

The reason why I would generally consider them one of the "weaker" Legions is their Index Astartes article. I loved that article, it made the Night Lords out to be those absolutely nasty bastards, terrorizing and butchering entire worlds. But it pointed out that they preferrably attack less well defended worlds, and try to avoid stronger opposition. Makes sense, as they essentially pick their targets for fun and sports, not necessarily for any greater strategic purpose or to demonstrate their prowess. That does not mean that they are necessarily weaker, but you will generally expect other Legions or Chapters in the hardest confrontations, not the Night Lords.

The Night Lords will welcome an opportunity to land a heavy blow against any of their loyalists brother Legions/Chapters, but if there is heavy resistance, they will quickly lose any desire to fight on. They do not fight for any greater cause, mainly for their own benefit (down to the level where each individual Night Lord has primarily his own interests in mind), so they do not present as determined an enemy as other Legions would.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Much like the ultramarine's, there's been newer fluff for the night lords since second and the index astartes articles

[depthcharge12]

^^lol they're not from heretic geneseed or have half Eldar librarians :P

 

Does anyone think the part with Mericus was rushed at the end? I felt like puking when what happened to him happened, but it all felt to fast.

 

 

 

It's like he fought for like 3 minutes, got ambushed, and got skinned in a horrible way, and then just died. Like Guy Haley spent the whole time leading up to something and if Mericus had tripped over a rock and died, I would've felt the same way as I do now.

 

I will add that Guy Haley did do a sickening job of the exact details of Sadism the NLs did, like it was incredibly disgusting. ADB on the other hand made you feel like, "ok, yeah these guys are sick bastards, but it's tolerable because it's on the periphery." Guy Haley made me wonder if he thinks about this stuff regularly and should be admitted to a crazy hospital :P

 

 

I just felt the end was a bit rushed too, or that Haley had too many things he wanted to do, but didn't have time. F'rex the sword as people have mentioned, or Mericus as I've said above.

 

Overall I'd give this novel a 8.5/10.

 

Why better than most drivel put out these days, and advances the plot somewhat (nudge nudge Sevatar chuckle chuckle). But I did take breaks with the book as it got slow at some points, not like I've had with Abnett/ADB/McNeill (the bald trifecta) where I'll lock myself in my room till I'm done with the book.

 

But Haley shows promise. He's not quite Chris Wraight, but he's sure as hell no Nick Kyme.

[Mazryonh]

No nothing like that happens. When original heart to heart has sanguinius being very calm and insisting it's all a charade, he doesn't want to be set above his brothers and says he wouldn't have been worthy of the title warmaster either. Guilliman is angry because his plans have failed and sanguinius effectively calms him down.

 

At the end though sanguinius effectively says he's had enough, they made him emperor, and if they want that to continue they'll obey him. He's angry because he was kept out of the loop on what was happening and because the lion has failed miserably at defending the realm despite it being his job.

 

Get the distinct impression once they get back he'll be saying he's leaving to be honest.

 

I see, it's just that the Lion has shown that he is capable of becoming homicidally angry in what clearly should have been a non-combat situation.  Since that's now canon I thought other authors might have built on it showing other Loyalist Primarchs cracking under pressure even when not in combat--after all, having Guilliman's "precious 21-seat table" smashed to pieces by one of its intended occupants would be a nice metaphor for how the Heresy has torn the Imperium (and, by extension, the Primarchs) apart.

 

By the way, we know that at this point the Blood Angels have already shown signs of the Black Rage and Red Thirst, with many Blood Angels legionnaires eventually needing to be put down.  Did Sanguinius show any tell-tale hints of those around Guilliman in this novel?  This arc could be extended if Sanguinius' fitness for command is called into question because of these perceived flaws.

[b1soul]

At least when the BA died in Soul Hunter it was because they were ambushed completely, and there was that awesome line Talos said that helped. And one on one the BA seemed good, but never had that chance (they were ambushed)

In the entire NL trilogy, there was not a single "on-screen" BA on NL kill

 

Just repeated "ambushes", stranglings, and butcherings of BA by NL

 

NL casualties inflicted by BA are only mentioned in passing

[shandwen]

I had a problem with the exploding statue. Why was a statue in the outside of the throne room conected to a dead-switch on home-boys arm? If home-boy is inside the throneroom then the exploding statue will do no good, and it is just a plain bad idea. Bad tactical ideas always theow me off a book, just as massive leaps in character change do (why I hate the book where horus falls).

[MasterofMankind]

I think the idea is to have Azkaellon and the rest of the guard at the gate, and if they die then they blow the statue as a last resort.

But I guess they didn't factor in a lucky sniper taking Azkaellon out first and letting the explosives take care of the rest of the guard.

[Legatus]

The reason why I would generally consider them one of the "weaker" Legions is their Index Astartes article. I loved that article, it made the Night Lords out to be those absolutely nasty bastards, terrorizing and butchering entire worlds. But it pointed out that they preferrably attack less well defended worlds, and try to avoid stronger opposition. Makes sense, as they essentially pick their targets for fun and sports, not necessarily for any greater strategic purpose or to demonstrate their prowess. That does not mean that they are necessarily weaker, but you will generally expect other Legions or Chapters in the hardest confrontations, not the Night Lords.

The Night Lords will welcome an opportunity to land a heavy blow against any of their loyalists brother Legions/Chapters, but if there is heavy resistance, they will quickly lose any desire to fight on. They do not fight for any greater cause, mainly for their own benefit (down to the level where each individual Night Lord has primarily his own interests in mind), so they do not present as determined an enemy as other Legions would.

 

Much like the ultramarine's, there's been newer fluff for the night lords since second and the index astartes articles

 

Such as the second Horus Heresy volume from Forgeworld, 'Massacre', where among the exemplary battles is described an incident where a Night Lords force disengages from a powerful Ork force, leaving behind their allied Iron Warriors force to be slaughtered ('Velekshar', p. 111). Maybe the Night Lords were doing the sensible thing in the face of overwhelming force, but other Imperial personell seemed to disagree. Plus it fits with their previous description.

 

In that same book the Night Lords Legion is also given a special rule based on ganging up on an opponent. In a recent BL book hundreds of Night Lords are described as kicking to death a squad of unarmed Space Wolves who had come to them as allies (even if it was to observe them).

 

I don't think there has been any recent description of post-heresy Night Lords and their target preferences, so why not go with the good old index astartes?

[A D-B]

 

At least when the BA died in Soul Hunter it was because they were ambushed completely, and there was that awesome line Talos said that helped. And one on one the BA seemed good, but never had that chance (they were ambushed)

In the entire NL trilogy, there was not a single "on-screen" BA on NL kill

 

Untrue!

In the final battle when a Blood Angel Combat Squad is ambushed by First Claw (which is pretty much the only Blood Angel / Night Lord fight in the whole series), and both squads are backed up by Dreadnoughts, First Claw loses Adhemar on-screen and Malcharion dies, too, when the Dreadnoughts destroy each other.

 

 

 Just repeated "ambushes", stranglings, and butcherings of BA by NL

 

Untrue! Outside of that above fight, pretty much the entire boarding assault is only mentioned in passing. There are no repeated anythings.

 

 

 

NL casualties inflicted by BA are only mentioned in passing

 

 

True! And yet the Blood Angels are mentioned as inflicting far more damage overall than the Night Lords did in return.

And, let's remember, the Night Lords ran away from the Blood Angels, too.

 

 

Delicious, healthy perspective.

[Kol Saresk]

/

True! And yet the Blood Angels are mentioned as inflicting far more damage overall than the Night Lords did in return.

And, let's remember, the Night Lords ran away from the Blood Angels, too.

 

 

Delicious, healthy perspective.

That part is especially important to remember since the main point of Talos' gang going to the Red Corsairs is to get their ship fixed precisely because the damage they sustained from the Blood Angels is just too much for them to fix. And that was after they sized an entire Space Marines supply station.

I had a problem with the exploding statue. Why was a statue in the outside of the throne room conected to a dead-switch on home-boys arm? If home-boy is inside the throneroom then the exploding statue will do no good, and it is just a plain bad idea. Bad tactical ideas always theow me off a book, just as massive leaps in character change do (why I hate the book where horus falls).

 

 

I think the idea is to have Azkaellon and the rest of the guard at the gate, and if they die then they blow the statue as a last resort.

But I guess they didn't factor in a lucky sniper taking Azkaellon out first and letting the explosives take care of the rest of the guard.

Last resort, likely. More likely it would be one last ambush to kill everyone trying to break down the door and anyone who survives that gets to deal with Sanguinius, Azkaellon and the Sanguinary Guard.

[Lord Tharand]

^^lol they're not from heretic geneseed or have half Eldar librarians

Does anyone think the part with Mericus was rushed at the end? I felt like puking when what happened to him happened, but it all felt to fast.

It's like he fought for like 3 minutes, got ambushed, and got skinned in a horrible way, and then just died. Like Guy Haley spent the whole time leading up to something and if Mericus had tripped over a rock and died, I would've felt the same way as I do now.

I will add that Guy Haley did do a sickening job of the exact details of Sadism the NLs did, like it was incredibly disgusting. ADB on the other hand made you feel like, "ok, yeah these guys are sick bastards, but it's tolerable because it's on the periphery." Guy Haley made me wonder if he thinks about this stuff regularly and should be admitted to a crazy hospital

I just felt the end was a bit rushed too, or that Haley had too many things he wanted to do, but didn't have time. F'rex the sword as people have mentioned, or Mericus as I've said above.

Overall I'd give this novel a 8.5/10.

Why better than most drivel put out these days, and advances the plot somewhat (nudge nudge Sevatar chuckle chuckle). But I did take breaks with the book as it got slow at some points, not like I've had with Abnett/ADB/McNeill (the bald trifecta) where I'll lock myself in my room till I'm done with the book.

But Haley shows promise. He's not quite Chris Wraight, but he's sure as hell no Nick Kyme.

I think you summed up nicely my thoughts on the novel. It was good right up until the last 2-3 chapters when it just became very rushed.

[helterskelter]

I actually enjoyed Mericus' death scene, didn't feel rushed at all. It's like that bit in the movie where it blacks out for a bit, and then you see what's happened, and you go noooooooooooooooo.

I want polux to do exactly what dom did in gears of war 3 for dantioch

[Marshal Loss]

I felt like the way Mericus died helped to emphasise the terror of the Night Lords. After all this time surviving and doing brilliantly, he just dies a horrible death off screen. The abrupt nature of it felt intentional to me and I didn't mind it at all

[b1soul]

 

 

 

At least when the BA died in Soul Hunter it was because they were ambushed completely, and there was that awesome line Talos said that helped. And one on one the BA seemed good, but never had that chance (they were ambushed)

 

In the entire NL trilogy, there was not a single "on-screen" BA on NL kill

 

Untrue!

In the final battle when a Blood Angel Combat Squad is ambushed by First Claw (which is pretty much the only Blood Angel / Night Lord fight in the whole series), and both squads are backed up by Dreadnoughts, First Claw loses Adhemar on-screen and Malcharion dies, too, when the Dreadnoughts destroy each other.

 

 

 Just repeated "ambushes", stranglings, and butcherings of BA by NL

 

Untrue! Outside of that above fight, pretty much the entire boarding assault is only mentioned in passing. There are no repeated anythings.

 

 

 

NL casualties inflicted by BA are only mentioned in passing

 

 

True! And yet the Blood Angels are mentioned as inflicting far more damage overall than the Night Lords did in return.

And, let's remember, the Night Lords ran away from the Blood Angels, too.

 

 

Delicious, healthy perspective.

Sorry...I wasn't counting dreadnought on marine kills. Also...

 

Malcharion doesn't really die? Not in the way, say, Xarl dies.

 

 

Not really implying you're biased...just saying the graphic bloodshed/killing between NL and BA was all NL on BA. Thus when I first read the book, I felt the BA were getting dominated...when in truth, it would be more accurate to say that the BA who were unlucky enough to run into 1st Claw got dominated

[Frostmourne]

What's Polux doing at the end of all this? Any clue on if he will be at Terra?

[Emperor's Furor]

What's Polux doing at the end of all this? Any clue on if he will be at Terra?

He's mourning his Iron Warrior friend.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

 

 

At least when the BA died in Soul Hunter it was because they were ambushed completely, and there was that awesome line Talos said that helped. And one on one the BA seemed good, but never had that chance (they were ambushed)

In the entire NL trilogy, there was not a single "on-screen" BA on NL kill

 

Untrue!

In the final battle when a Blood Angel Combat Squad is ambushed by First Claw (which is pretty much the only Blood Angel / Night Lord fight in the whole series), and both squads are backed up by Dreadnoughts, First Claw loses Adhemar on-screen and Malcharion dies, too, when the Dreadnoughts destroy each other.

 

 

 Just repeated "ambushes", stranglings, and butcherings of BA by NL

 

Untrue! Outside of that above fight, pretty much the entire boarding assault is only mentioned in passing. There are no repeated anythings.

 

 

 

NL casualties inflicted by BA are only mentioned in passing

 

True! And yet the Blood Angels are mentioned as inflicting far more damage overall than the Night Lords did in return.

And, let's remember, the Night Lords ran away from the Blood Angels, too.

 

 

Delicious, healthy perspective.

Sorry...I wasn't counting dreadnought on marine kills. Also...

 

Malcharion doesn't really die? Not in the way, say, Xarl dies.

 

 

Not really implying you're biased...just saying the graphic bloodshed/killing between NL and BA was all NL on BA. Thus when I first read the book, I felt the BA were getting dominated...when in truth, it would be more accurate to say that the BA who were unlucky enough to run into 1st Claw got dominated

 

But that was my point. The Blood Angels were ambushed by Night Lords and lost in the fight. One on one,

a Blood Angel kicked the rear end of one of the Night Lords, but got shot in the back of the head before he was able to finish it

. 

 

When someone ambushes someone else, it should have similar results. It shouldn't be a lop sided victory for the one that was ambushed.

[b1soul]

 

When someone ambushes someone else, it should have similar results. It shouldn't be a lop sided victory for the one that was ambushed.

1st Claw won their squad-scale battle in lop-sided fashion

 

On a larger scale, the BA and the NL exchanged on more even terms

 

...but the "camera" focuses on 1st Claw. Thus why my initial impression was that the BA were getting butchered.

[mc warhammer]

i always wondered how curze could hold on to his personal philosophy in the face of grand utopias like the guilliman’s system; now i know. guy haley is a smart man and writer. another win.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

When someone ambushes someone else, it should have similar results. It shouldn't be a lop sided victory for the one that was ambushed.

1st Claw won their squad-scale battle in lop-sided fashion

 

On a larger scale, the BA and the NL exchanged on more even terms

 

...but the "camera" focuses on 1st Claw. Thus why my initial impression was that the BA were getting butchered.

 

... You are missing my point... 

 

What started my string of posts about the Night Lords and the Blood Angels was this post:

 

It's ridiculous that the Night Lord ambush with however many dudes (I think the ultra reported 46 and rising) on the ultramarine unit of 15 only killed 1 guy and lost them 6 from the initial bolter exchange. 

 

 

To which someone replied with this post: 

 

Breaching shields versus total lack of cover.

...

Night Lords are probably the legion least likely to do well against other Astartes.

 

 

And this post followed it up: 

 

The ultras had 5 shields for 15 men against roughly 50 guys. Weight of fire alone should have crushed them, but the Night Lords ambushed them on top of that. I agree that the Night Lords' conventional tactics wouldn't make them that efficient at killing other marines, but that doesn't mean they suck at being marines in the first place.

 

 

Which was retorted with this post:

 

In regards to the Night Lords being incapable. They're not bad, just unsuited.

 

One of the Iron Hands had a good analogy on picking the tool for the job.

 

"Can you kill a man with a rifle?"

"Yes."

"Can you kill a man with a shovel?"

"Yes."

"Can you dig a hole with a shovel?'

"Of course."

"Can you dig a hole with a rifle?"

"..."

 

The quote was about using human auxiliaries in a war against Eldar who were messing up their bionics. But it works so well for all legions too. You wouldn't send the Death guard on a lightning fast attack. You wouldn't send world eaters as infiltrators. You wouldn't send Raven Guard as attrition defence (unless your Horus and feel like bullying your brother who doesn't like how you do things).

 

Night Lords do well against enemies that feel fear or can be surprised, as an aside, their tactic is to divide and obliterate the enemy. They don't have the speciality of the wolves, the sons or the ultras that let them win via tactical genius. Nor, I suspect, the numbers to just wipe them out in a fair fight. 

 

 

To which I started the thing that that is bull crap, and as we can see, when the Night Lords Ambushed the Blood Angels, the Blood Angels got crushed.

 

I'm not looking at the effects of the whole scheme of things, I'm looking AT THE AMBUSH. 

 

So when the Night Lords can do that to the Blood Angels with what, six guys against five? But can't do it against fifteen Ultramarines when they have over forty? There is no excuse for that, it's bull crap.

[Kol Saresk]

Ultramarines are obviously better than Blood Angels :P

 

But honestly, I don't think there's going to be a solid explanation. Why is it a few dozen soldiers can survive an attack by dozens, if not hundreds more, while out on patrol? Luck? Skill? Training? Superior position and firepower? Usually it's a combination, but it's a scene repeated time and time again throughout history. And sometimes it is an ambush.

 

Honestly, if I had to speculate, in Soul Hunter, First Claw has been fighting Astartes for roughly 400 years(100 years leading to the Shattering at Tsalgualsa; 300 years following) and they did while constantly fighting on the backfoot. Rather different from the Legion days when you could expect to get your armor sufficiently repaired the next day versus when you never know when it might get fixed.

 

Meanwhile, the Blood Angels they are fighting have a life expectancy in the decades, are much more susceptible to the Red Thirst and therefore are less likely to actually think in battle.

 

But, back in 30K, the Night Lords and Ultramarines only have a few years each of actually fighting Astartes. Skraivok is obviously not experiencing the desparation Talos and Co. have been because he is willing to throw away his men and he is pretty much relying on the good ol' fashioned "Rush 'em as fast you can."

 

So yeah, they only got the five shields, but as soon as the ambush started, the Ultramarines gathered behind those shields, while the squad was still in the doorway. In fact, out of the entire group of fifteen, Skraivok could only see six of the Ultramarines were in the room. Those six being the five breachers and the dude with the auspex.

 

So starting out, the ambush is forty(some of whom are outside the station getting ready to sieze the ship IIRC) Night Lords firing into a limited field of fire, in which only six of their targets have presented themselves, five of which have boarding shields made for exactly that situation.

 

Am I making excuses for poor writing? Possibly. But honestly, there is enough difference between the two situations that I'm okay with the "disparity".

 

EDIT: Question, which ambush are you referring to exactly? Is it the one in the short story before Soul Hunter or is it towards the end of Soul Hunter when the Blood Angels were going cray-cray and running off solo before they were cornered and killed?

 

Because if it was the short story, I believe those were Scouts IIRC so you end up with Veterans of the Long War versus kids, basically. Who don't even have Power Armour.

[Arkangilos]

I was talking about Soul Hunter.

 

And I'm not saying the Ultramarines should have lost or anything.

 

And people in my unit have been in ambushes that you described, where they were ambushed by a hundred of the enemy and they won, but there is a difference between a less trained and poorly equipped army ambushing a well trained and equipped army, and an army of super humans ambushing another army of super humans.

 

On equal ground, I think the Blood Angels would have won (I mean, that small glimps we saw kind of proved it at least with those two members), just like I think the Ultramarines would have won. But in the ambush the ultras should have at least suffered a lot more casualties.

 

And I think as a whole, the Ultramarines would win any *wars* against them, or even prolonged battles.

 

But I suppose you are right, given the situation. It depends on how the ambush started.

[Izlude]

Just finished reading this book and I have to say it is an amazing book. I am really impressed with what Guy Haley has done here. I didn't know this was his full length novel. I have enjoyed his other short stories with the ones leading to this book like safe and shadowed place along with laurel of defiance. The first two chapters with Oberdeii was little boring and was worried (didn't read spoilers) the rest of the book would be the same, glad I was wrong. Some of the things I really enjoyed (Apologize for spelling of characters...not sure why but in this book I found many of the character names hard to pronounce):

 

1. I typically do not enjoy reading about extensive "normal" humans like the remembrances crap. Very few authors can pull it off well like Abnett or ADB but Guy did a great job with the main humans here. I really enjoyed the salty Mericus and his band of misfits. Their interactions with the SM was believable and felt for them in the end.

 

2. Polux and Dantioch: I love both these characters and have followed them in all their respective stories and was looking forward to this duo after UE. Their relationship is very touching actually and the book does a great job to highlight their bond. I typically don't get emotional with these books but the end had me almost shed a tear...it is totally a movie-type scene in the end especially with Dantioch's helmet.

 

3. Night lords: Love reading about these heartless bastards. Man...Guy did an amazing job really highlighting their fractured nature, the infighting, the torturing, etc. I actually loved the Kellendvar brother relationship and their upbringing. Even though Kellendvar is still a nightlord bastard, it is nice to see his desire for a brotherly bond with his psycho half. The banter between Krukesh and Skraivok was always fun to read.

 

4. Primarchs: I think when you have multiple primarchs in a book, it is definitely hard to make them come together and bring out their personalities well. I think Guy did a great job here and was enjoyable. The interactions between Sang and Guilliman was fun with Guilliman losing his cool and Sang sort of poking him. The "fight" between Curze and Sang was enlightening. While the book description made it sound like it was going to be some sort of show down I didn't feel it was a let down.

 

Not sure what the Lion is doing this whole time, sounded like he was being sneaky and stuff but it wasn't clear to me what exactly he was doing and the whole thing about "understaffing" pharos with troops wasn't clear to me either.

 

I think these are the main things I really enjoyed about the book. The pacing was good and he did a great job to end each chapter with sort of cliff hangers and then transition to another view point or character. The first few chapters were slow but once the nightlord derelict ship shows up it moves fast and was hard to put the book down.

 

The last bit about the great devourer seeing the burning out of the pharos to me was really cool. I know people seemed to hate this 40k-30k thing but after reading about the background of sotha and the scythe (?) chapter that was destroyed by the tyranids it seemed like cool foreshadowing that the tyranids slowly make their way over.

 

Overall a great book and up there with my holy trinity (KNF/Betrayer/First Heretic)