Suggestions for AM Backup

[ElectricPaladin]

I just started a new project with my first homemade chapter, the Terminus Guard - previously, I've run "canon" chapters like the Blood Angels, the Knights of Blood, the Exorcists, and the Blood Ravens... lots of red and lots of blood there, huh, I hadn't noticed that before - and I thought it might be fun to create a Militarum regiment to back them up. The relevant bits of fluff behind my chapter are:

 

1. They were created to protect a strategically important world (called Ossuary) and recruit exclusively from that planet's population, though they also help out all over the sector.
2. Previously, the planet was protected by "Entombed" (ie. pseudo-dreadnought) elite soldiers who fought in close combat formations or fired heavy weapons on the move (the Imperium put a stop to that tech-heresy, and Entombed no longer fight in the world's defense, but the practice influenced the culture of both the planet and the chapter).
3. The chapter culture is to value mortal life; they view themselves as "dead" (much like the Entombed that preceded them) because they no longer participate in the cycle of birth, procreation, and death.
4. The chapter has a poor relationship with the Adeptus Mechanicus, so I've limited myself in a number of ways: no skimmers, no non-transport tanks, only godhammer land raiders.

 

So, my thoughts are for a small AM force focused on troops that can be useful while staying out of the way and letting the Astartes do most of the heavy lifting (valuing mortal life and being more willing to sacrifice Astartes), which means that they probably contribute mostly with tanks and/or artillery. I'd like to work this out in such a way that the AM allied detachment is filling in the gaps for their Astartes in a way that's neat and flavorful, but doesn't necessarily completely obviate my self-inflicted limitations.

 

I really have no idea how the AM codex works, though, so I don't know where to begin. Any recommendations?

[duz_]

Sounds like you want to add the new emperor's wrath artillery formation from the montka campaign

 

1 cmd squad

1 tech priest (although may conflict with you fluff)

2 squadrons of basilisks, wyvrens or hydras and

1 deathstrike or manticore

 

Or maybe one of tank formations

[HenricusTyranicus]

So I do something kinda similar. In the old days, the real Templars were of Noble birth. But if you wanted to join their ranks to help out, you were a "Sergeant" and you served as light cavalry support, spearmen, garrisoned places, helped take care of horses and such, etc.

 

So for my Templars, I created the Sergeant Regiment, who are soldiers drawn from worlds the Black Templars have liberated that help train Neophytes, drive vehicles, and act as support, i.e., guardsmen. Their color scheme is pretty reminiscent of the Templars, and the children of these soldiers have a higher chance of being recruited to the Templars proper.

 

With you, you might try something like saying the human population of the planet holds mechanized combat as the highest form, in honor of these "Entombed" who they half remember from generations before. Furthermore, since the marines are shorthanded on vehicles, they need the help of local regiments to bring up armored Leman Russes, Wyvern Batteries, etc. 

 

You could start by getting 2 Leman Russes, and running a Tank commander alone as the new Mont'ka formations allow. Then, if you want to expand, maybe an Emperor's Wrath Artillery company or something.  

[WarriorFish]

Guard and Marines go well together as allies, being able to fill gaps/weaknesses - which is the trick to allies as you gain more by supporting rather than stepping on toes. Sounds like you'll be wanting some troopers with armoured support. A Platoon with a Company Command Squad will be a good foundation to an allied Guard force, providing numbers and fire power as well as home objective holders.

 

Then you can look at supplementing them with some armour. For an allied force it'll be hard to get artillery and tanks in unless you're at higher points, what sort of points value are you looking at? Assuming it won't break your theme (but there's no reason the Guard can't be on better terms with the AdMech...) Russ tanks are always fun and Guard have some nice artillery options. Wyverns will be a good way to spend a few points and will help tackle hordes nicely for example and Bassies are dangerous (keep your Marines away from their targets!).

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I'd probably say that your guard contingent should be the ones to supply the direct firepower, in the form of tanks. I actually think that the Armored Battle Group list from IA1 would suit your needs really well. I'm a big fan of it, as you can load up on the hard hitting infantry like stormtroopers, and a few tanks and still have HS slots for artillery. 

 

I know you said the Chapter doesn't have good relations with the mechanicus, but the guard might have better ones. The ABG list also doesn't require any tech priests, so you don't have to go against your fluff to field it. And you can strip the list down to just 2 tanks for an allied detachment for your Space Marines. Also if you wanted you could just plonk a turret ring with a heavy stubber on a rhino chassis with doors off as a counts as centaur, to ferry vets around. ABG vets are kind cool, as they come with a Centaur carrier and 5 man squads. Sink a HWT in them with a couple of special weapons and you have a nice deadly little package (I like the idea of 2 melta guns and a missile launcher, or 3 meltas). The centaur is also open-topped, so while it gives the opponent more chance to explode it, all the occupants can fire out of it, and assault out of it, if they desired. Kinda makes me wish stormies could take it too. 

 

Anyway, I think the ABG would give you the most flexibility in how to support your marines, despite how limited the ABG is in terms of infantry (i.e. no platoons, and all infantry is mechanized). 

[ElectricPaladin]

Yeah... I see what you're getting at. An armored battle group makes sense as support for marines - the mortals get to hide inside their armored tanks and let the Astartes run around on the battlefield, they're the "honored dead," after all. Now, am I reading the list correctly when I say that I could theoretically start with one leman russ company command tank as an HQ and another leman russ tank as a Troops choice (with the option to add another two leman russes to the squadron). And then I could branch out with, say, a destroyer tank hunter squadron in Elites, or some sentinals or tauroses or the flame tanks in Fast Attack, or a hydra or griffon or an artillery battery as Heavy Support. Sounds like fun!

 

I'm assuming that I want the "all-purpose" leman russes for my troops squad, with their mid-high-strength pie plate weapon. What about the HQ tank, though?

[Guardsman1275]

Only if you use forge world, honestly a battleforged AM list is better than the formations. So what point value are we looking at here? for a basic 500 point mech list I would do something like this. HQ

Techpriest 75 (I think, didn't have the codex on hand)

Troops

IS Autocannon 60

IS Autocannon 60

Heavy Support

LRBT 150

LRBT 150

 

Works as a seperate army as well as an ally, but it is not really that effective since nothing you have should be moving, but as an ally to some fast moving Blood Angels these brave guardsmen will bring the pain on T3 4+ Infantry and MEQs alike. It can also deal with light infantry well. Overall this should cover you as allies for the BA. If you want a 500 point list that would work on its own, you COULD try this. It is your standard AM deathblob list

 

HQ

Lord Comissar 70

Troops

PCS 3x Melta Vox 65

IS Flamer Vox 60

IS Flamer Vox 60

IS Flamer Vox 60

PCS Autocannon  Vox 45

IS Autocannon Vox 45

IS Autocannon Vox 45 

This adds 61 models to your table great as meatshields

So there are two options, blob or mech both are good, but at low point levels blob will do a bit better, while mech does better the more points you are using. Welcome to the guard, I hope you bring the hammer of the emperor to many victories.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Yeah... I see what you're getting at. An armored battle group makes sense as support for marines - the mortals get to hide inside their armored tanks and let the Astartes run around on the battlefield, they're the "honored dead," after all. Now, am I reading the list correctly when I say that I could theoretically start with one leman russ company command tank as an HQ and another leman russ tank as a Troops choice (with the option to add another two leman russes to the squadron). And then I could branch out with, say, a destroyer tank hunter squadron in Elites, or some sentinals or tauroses or the flame tanks in Fast Attack, or a hydra or griffon or an artillery battery as Heavy Support. Sounds like fun!

 

I'm assuming that I want the "all-purpose" leman russes for my troops squad, with their mid-high-strength pie plate weapon. What about the HQ tank, though?

The Company Command Tank and Commissar Tanks are both BS4, which really lend themselves to the Vanquisher variant. The Vanquisher in the ABG list also has access to Beast Hunter Shells, which are S8 AP2 small blast and instant death. Additionally the Vanquisher has access to the Coaxial weapons (always take the heavy stubber, one extra shot and 12" more range than the stormbolter), which grant twin linked to the main gun when fired at the target before the main gun is fired. That set up really makes the vanquisher more versatile, and can even make the BS3 normal russes ok to use for the vanquisher. You can take any russ as a troops choice, they are separated into different squadrons though, with the seige tank variants being one squadron and the regular russes being a different squadron choice (Seige tanks have rear AV11, where the normal russ is AV10 rear). 

 

It's up to you as to what you put in each slot, but you can also use infantry in the ABG list, and it's fluffy for you, as the infantry in the ABG list are all armored fist squads, meaning they all require transports, so the mortals are still in rolling bunkers.

 

Personally I went the opposite direction, my Space Marines are the back up for my guardsmen. Providing the vehicles (dreads and vindicators) and some specialized infantry support (jump pack troops and psykers). But I'm generally using Death Korps of Krieg as my guard rules, which gives me WS4 immunity to fear and my units don't take morale checks for taking 25% casualties. I actually really like the idea of hard as nails mortal men facing down the horrors of the 41st Millennium, with nothing but their determination, grit, and massive brazen balls. 

[Guardsman1275]

Space Marines providing vehicle support to the IG? *Laughs Hysterically* really though what to the SM bring in terms of vehicles that the AM do not do better? Of the top of my head the only thing they have that trumps the IG equivilent is deadnoughts to sentinels, but when the ratio is about 3 sentinels to 1 dreadnought that is a questionable matchup for the dreadnought. In terms of other vehicles Chimera beats rhino even with the extra price, LRBT beats preadator, and wyvern beats whirlwind. Overall it is quantity vs quality debate, while AM vehicles cost more they are overall better armed, armoured, and are more flexible than their SM equivilents. For example, the chimera is a great transport and can put out up to 6 shots or 2 flamer templates a turn with an AV12 front armour. So it can be a good light tank as well as a transport. And finally SM vehicles have signifigantly less DAKKA than AM vehicles do

 

TL;DR Space Marine vehicles are cheaper but are overall worse than AM vehicles due to their low armour and poor weapons. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Space Marines providing vehicle support to the IG? *Laughs Hysterically* really though what to the SM bring in terms of vehicles that the AM do not do better? Of the top of my head the only thing they have that trumps the IG equivilent is deadnoughts to sentinels, but when the ratio is about 3 sentinels to 1 dreadnought that is a questionable matchup for the dreadnought. In terms of other vehicles Chimera beats rhino even with the extra price, LRBT beats preadator, and wyvern beats whirlwind. Overall it is quantity vs quality debate, while AM vehicles cost more they are overall better armed, armoured, and are more flexible than their SM equivilents. For example, the chimera is a great transport and can put out up to 6 shots or 2 flamer templates a turn with an AV12 front armour. So it can be a good light tank as well as a transport. And finally SM vehicles have signifigantly less DAKKA than AM vehicles do

 

TL;DR Space Marine vehicles are cheaper but are overall worse than AM vehicles due to their low armour and poor weapons. 

Yeah, save a few notable examples, like the Dreads. They can take a variety of weapons, and they get 2 ranged weapons per walker, and a close combat weapon. They have high strength, and BS4 making them an excellent infantry support vehicle, regardless of what army you play. Also, Cash is rather tight right now, and I don't have many Guard vehicles, since my army has always been an Airmobile army (Vets/Stormies in Valkyries) heavy on deep striking and infiltrating, not so much on tanks. Since money is tight, I've been trying to find ways of switching up my play style, while getting some use out of things that don't see a ton of use from my Space Wolves. 

 

I'm not debating that IG vehicles are far and away better than their space marine counterparts. IG vehicles are far superior, I just don't have enough of them yet. I'm still trying to figure out how I want to employ tanks, and it's also got to do with my fluff. My IG are all Gebirgstruppen, or mountain troops. They hail from a mountainous world where there's not much in the way of flat land, so they make use of Sentinels and Aircraft as their primary vehicles. Basically if you can't deploy it by Sky Talon or Valkyrie, they don't use it much. That's where the Space Wolves come in, since predators and vindicators and dreads can be transported via thunderhawk transporter they can make planetfall with my guardsmen. 

 

It's like how the 101st Ariborne, 82nd Airborne, and 10th Mountain Divisions haven't had a tank since the US Army got rid of the M551 Sheridan, since no other tank can get pushed out of a C-130. That's why I'mm using Space marines as my supporting forces right now. When I get 4 more sentinels and some tanks I'll be happy to make it all guardsmen.

[Guardsman1275]

Dreads are great, but are pretty risky. With a properly kitted out dread costing, let's say about 135-145 points + a drop pod costing 35 points you are spending 170-180 points on an AV12 walker with 3 HP. Not that Dreads are bad, far from it, but they require a very different playstyle than most vehicles, you have to be jut the right amount of aggresive. Not too aggresive or you will die, but if you stay back and never get to assault your points are wasted. Dreads are a great unit becuase they can be effective, but to use them in the most effective way you really have to think or the points and elite slot you invested will be wasted.

[Guardsman1275]

But back to the question at hand, an armoured company will give you more DAKKA and give the space marines some good long range guns, while an infantry based allied detachment will give you a lot more board control. Being able to bring 60 extra bodies in addition to your space marines will give you a lot more board control, and put your opponent on the defensive. So which do you perfer, drowning your opponents with a mass of large blasts, or rushing up and unleashing swarms of lasgun shots. While lasguns may seem useless, I have killed termies and lychguard with mostly lasguns, you just have to have enough guardsmen and the enemy will fail.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Dreads are great, but are pretty risky. With a properly kitted out dread costing, let's say about 135-145 points + a drop pod costing 35 points you are spending 170-180 points on an AV12 walker with 3 HP. Not that Dreads are bad, far from it, but they require a very different playstyle than most vehicles, you have to be jut the right amount of aggresive. Not too aggresive or you will die, but if you stay back and never get to assault your points are wasted. Dreads are a great unit becuase they can be effective, but to use them in the most effective way you really have to think or the points and elite slot you invested will be wasted.

Yeah, my plan was to walk them up the board, and I'm using Space Wolves, so an AssCan dread with a HF is 125 points, and again using space wolves I don't have to worry about elite slots, as cthe Company of the great wolf detachment gives me 8 of them to play with. I was going to use them to advance up putting down mid range fire with the asscan, and I would only assault vehicles as my dreads only get 2 attacks, and the HF would be used for clearing out cover campers off of midfield objectives. Infantry support is what they'd be used for.  I'd be using them to support a foot slogging infantry platoon (Krieg assault brigade platoons cannot take transports). 

 

 

But back to the question at hand, an armoured company will give you more DAKKA and give the space marines some good long range guns, while an infantry based allied detachment will give you a lot more board control. Being able to bring 60 extra bodies in addition to your space marines will give you a lot more board control, and put your opponent on the defensive. So which do you perfer, drowning your opponents with a mass of large blasts, or rushing up and unleashing swarms of lasgun shots. While lasguns may seem useless, I have killed termies and lychguard with mostly lasguns, you just have to have enough guardsmen and the enemy will fail.

I'll second that on the lasguns, I've lost Termies to massed lasguns. Saves forced are saves forced, volume and probability will cause losses just as surely as low AP. 

[Guardsman1275]

Agreed, get a 30 man blob, order First rank fire, use a psyker to give precience, and you are cooking with gasoline

[Guardsman1275]

Well you could do some conversions to make your vehicles of a more off road type. Or you could use tauroxes, in the fluff thry are described as off road vehicles, and the reroll on difficult/dangerous terrain suggests this 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Well you could do some conversions to make your vehicles of a more off road type. Or you could use tauroxes, in the fluff thry are described as off road vehicles, and the reroll on difficult/dangerous terrain suggests this 

You don't get much more off road than caterpillar tracks. Besides for me it's more to do with terrain being inaccessible by conventional vehicles, rather than simple off road obstacles. You either need legs or a very small wheelbase to traverse mountainous terrain. I do have tauroxes, and use them with my Militarum Temptestus Scions (The actual models, not my Kasrkin).

[Guardsman1275]

ahh I get it now, one thing you could try is getting some lascannons, autocannons and the like and converting them into a type of mountain gun. If you do not know (though you probably do) mountain guns were man portable versions of cannons used during WWI and II. Here are some pictures https://www.google.com/search?q=mountain%20cannon&rlz=1CAACAG_enUS666US667&espv=2&biw=837&bih=626&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZkaa984nKAhUE4SYKHaZhDPEQ_AUIBigB#tbm=isch&q=mountain+cannon+WWII&imgrc=3_GgO17fDUQtUM%3A

https://www.google.com/search?q=mountain%20cannon&rlz=1CAACAG_enUS666US667&espv=2&biw=837&bih=626&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZkaa984nKAhUE4SYKHaZhDPEQ_AUIBigB#tbm=isch&q=mountain+cannon+WWII&imgrc=HP5eQubwCfOsvM%3A

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

ahh I get it now, one thing you could try is getting some lascannons, autocannons and the like and converting them into a type of mountain gun. If you do not know (though you probably do) mountain guns were man portable versions of cannons used during WWI and II. Here are some pictures https://www.google.com/search?q=mountain%20cannon&rlz=1CAACAG_enUS666US667&espv=2&biw=837&bih=626&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZkaa984nKAhUE4SYKHaZhDPEQ_AUIBigB#tbm=isch&q=mountain+cannon+WWII&imgrc=3_GgO17fDUQtUM%3A

https://www.google.com/search?q=mountain%20cannon&rlz=1CAACAG_enUS666US667&espv=2&biw=837&bih=626&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZkaa984nKAhUE4SYKHaZhDPEQ_AUIBigB#tbm=isch&q=mountain+cannon+WWII&imgrc=HP5eQubwCfOsvM%3A

Yeah, never heard them called mountain guns though, always heard them called pack howitzers. I use lots of heavy weapons teams mortars, autocannons, heavy bolters, and missile launchers (don't use many lascannon teams, the single shot seems a waste of points for BS3 models). and I'm not saying I won't use or don't want to use tanks, just that right now with funds being somewhat limited I have to make use of what I have. I've got some ideas on how I'm going to do it, but it's a far cry from what ElectricPaladin has in mind. I also didn't mean to derail the thread too much.

 

One thing that guard has is easily accessed barrage weapons, and I love mortar squads. There's nothing quite like seeing your opponent smirk as he puts his dudes behind cover, only to discover that you have now made your mortars ignores cover and you proceed to drop them on top of the unit he didn't want you to kill. 

[Guardsman1275]

My favorite guard unit (after the leman russ of course) is the wyvern. It earned this love after one game against a Dark Eldar player. We got night fighting. Now with a shooty army the DE getting night fighting usually means game over. Nope, while I lost the game his force was toally decimated by the Wyvern. And in the net game I kill 6 Skitarii rangers with 1 round of shooting with the wyvern. Such a fun unit.

[ElectricPaladin]

My favorite guard unit (after the leman russ of course) is the wyvern. It earned this love after one game against a Dark Eldar player. We got night fighting. Now with a shooty army the DE getting night fighting usually means game over. Nope, while I lost the game his force was toally decimated by the Wyvern. And in the net game I kill 6 Skitarii rangers with 1 round of shooting with the wyvern. Such a fun unit.

 

And... the fluff behind my force is that one of their main enemies is Dark Eldar raiders... :D

[Guardsman1275]

well take at least 2 then, they are the best vehicle 65 points can buy in the whole game IMO. Less utility then a chimera, but the dakka on them is crazy

[duz_]

When I take multiple I try and keep them as separate units when I can.

I find this makes its a bit harder for your enemy to kill them in one round of shooting or combat as they have to target to separate vehicles.

 

Of course this isn't always possible.

[Guardsman1275]

agreed. Since my lists are pretty  mech heavy i can sometimes run out of heavy support slots. And if I have the coice of seperating my Leman Russes or my wyverns I always go with wyverns

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

My favorite unit, or rather the unit that I try to include in all my lists is stormtroopers. They are death to MEQ's. I'm also a big fan of Armored Sentinels, especially when armed with plasma cannons. 

 

Unfortunately, the ignores cover order comes out of C:AM, which is not the book I'm using. I'm using DKoK and ABG, so no ignores cover mortars for me, also no Wyverns. But I can take heavy mortars with Carcass shells which are S5 AP4 shred, ignores cover, and gets hot! so there's that.

[Guardsman1275]

Back to the question at hand. Since you fluff is an anti eldar raider regiment you have 2 main options. Now, the eldar move very fast, the only AM regiments that can move fast enough to catch them are airmobile regiments. Airmobile regiments will often fight Eldar. But when Eldar attack a planet there is another type of regiment that they often fight. Instead of veterans in fast movie and heavy hitting valkyries they will be confronted by a planets PDF. This is a force of conscripts, usually relying on numbers and artillery for its killing power rather than tanks or aircraft. I would suggest you go with a footslogging PDF list out of the two for two reasons. 1. People will hate you if you come to the table with 3-4 flyers. 2. a footslogging list plays to the strengths of the guard better. You get massive table control with it, which should offset the low numbers of space marines.