Sete Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Greetings! So last year I was planning to do a DiY chapter called Angels of Wrath, DA sucessor, but the Fallen fluff and what not never was my type of thing.Now after finishing the Wolf King and discovering that some of Luther calibanites DA were loyal, is it feasible to do a DA second founding chapter that is not connected to the Unforgiven in any way? My fluff fu needs some work, but lets say that these DA where far away in garrison duty and due to the warp storms (plot) arrived at Caliban after it was destroyed and Guilliman was reforming the Imperium. Being part of Luther Calibanite DA they were regarded as traitors by their brethren, but in a political move lets say their captain accepted with no reservation the Codex Astartes written by Guilliman to prove their loyalty and to stay safe from retaliation from the unforgiven. Ofc they have no idea about the fallen and dont believe the DA story about luther being a traitor. And since for me fluff and gameplay go hand to hand I xan use astral claws rules. They have stubborn skilled rider for bikes and scout for land speeders. What do you guys think? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 I'm of the mind that the Dark Angels and Co would pummel those guys to the ground with very large, void-based weaponry. My Unforgiven Successor Chapter is about as far away from the Dark Angels as possible. The only things that connect them are secrets and those aren't even the same. We just happen to share the same gene pool. Why do they need to be a Second Founding Chapter? Who's to say the Warp Storm(s) didn't spit them out right away? Gameplay-wise, if you're running a Successor Chapter, why would you use the rules for a completely different Chapter? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 I'm of the mind that the Dark Angels and Co would pummel those guys to the ground with very large, void-based weaponry. My Unforgiven Successor Chapter is about as far away from the Dark Angels as possible. The only things that connect them are secrets and those aren't even the same. We just happen to share the same gene pool. Why do they need to be a Second Founding Chapter? Who's to say the Warp Storm(s) didn't spit them out right away? Gameplay-wise, if you're running a Successor Chapter, why would you use the rules for a completely different Chapter? Well DA revolves around a lot about Fallen and fight against chaos. Im taking my chapter on a different direction, with no fallen knowledge and ignorant about the destruction of Caliban. Need to think the fluff trought. Basically they maintain the traits of DA being but have no chaos bonuses. Im thinking on adopting the Ravenwing sword wing symbol as Chapter Badge. Colour scheme Silver, bronze details and caliban green shoulder pads. Also since I bought the BaC set, plenty of MK4 and i have plenty of MK6 torsos. Main point on the fluff tho is that they adopt the codex astartes to ensure their survival and to use it as "political" protection so they dont get destroyed by the unforgiven. Maybe they got news about the attack on Terra and while trying to reach it got lost in the warp for some centuries. I rather not use the lost in the warp plot but hey why not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Master Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 While I like the 'outside the box' thinking, I have to agree with the above, the Unforgiven chapters would go ape and wipe them off the map the moment they discovered the Luther connection. Then 'Black Templar' them. I have played with an idea of having a chapter consisting of the ship's company of a Battle Barge in the Lion's fleet being caught in the Warp storm and being flung into the future. They wouldn't be fallen (Being freshly betrayed they could possibly be even more anti-chaos) but being separate from the Unforgiven too. DM Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaine Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 You're building another issue if you use the 'lost in the warp for centuries' bit. What happens when they show up, announcing the Imperial Truth, and see that the entire Imperium has swapped over to the Lectitio Divinitatus wholesale, and that they're basically heretics of the highest order? "Adeptus Astartes proclaiming the God-Emperor is not divine!? HERESY!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 Well if they arrived at Terra after at the Time of the second founding? They appearing to help the loyalists, even if not in time no one would doubt their loyalty since they are from the 1st legion, and it would look bad for the DA to destroy them because no one knows about Luther betrayal, not even these guys. They would have to believe the warp storm destroyed caliban cover up like everyone else, but due to mistrust with the Lions DA they would go their own way and make their second founding chapter. Ofc they won't have close relations with the unforgiven. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 You're building another issue if you use the 'lost in the warp for centuries' bit. What happens when they show up, announcing the Imperial Truth, and see that the entire Imperium has swapped over to the Lectitio Divinitatus wholesale, and that they're basically heretics of the highest order? "Adeptus Astartes proclaiming the God-Emperor is not divine!? HERESY!" Only Black Templars do believe that the Emperor is a god and maybe red hunters?Space marines never believed that the Emperor is a god. And thats common even in 40k. Also its centuries not millenia. Even decades could do the trick. They just need to appear after caliban is destroyed at the solar sistem. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostrael Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 After reading the Wolf King I harbored some similar thoughts about making a Chapter that was created by Luther. If you want create a Successor Chapter, start thinking like a Dark Angel. Don't let the Lords of Terra, other Chapters, or the Inquisition know what you know. It's a secret and must be kept. The Dark Angels no longer know all Successor Chapters. The knowledge was lost by an 'accident' long time ago. Some Chapters have lost their commanding officers and knowledge of the past. As far as I remember, the Consecrators just popped up as a Successor Chapter with a lot of old Weaponry and Armor of the Dark Angels. Nobody knew where they came from. Well If you feign ignorance, you might not get an invitation to an Inner Circle afternoon tea party. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Some spoilers about the new book within this post. Well, after the most recent DA novel. I can see even more how it could be possible to have good guy DA that were on the planet of Caliban when the destruction happened and went through the "warp" rift.The only issue with having a Luther followers group, is the only guys that were with Luther were, well, were on the planet of Caliban. I actually have my own idea about good DA from that time getting pulled through the rift, a few ships that got pulled through the warp at the time of the destruction that happened to be too close. Which is now a bit more justified but needs a bit of tinkering. Because of the ending of the new book, I can have them just being good guy DA that were on the planet. We know that not all of the DA on the planet were traitors, and not all of the traitors were tainted/chaos traitors like how Luther and quite a few others were. So it would have to be after the events of the latest book.the only issue beyond all those Luther DA is the issue if the DA knew they are current Luther followers, they would put the smack down on them. If they were ones that realized they were wrong and ended up fighting against Luther in the end because Luther lost it, maybe ok, fluffwise that is.@Lostrael. The DA know all their successor chapters. It's kinda the big thing that DA and SCs are all secretly one giant chapter, a Legion if you will. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 When I say Luther Calibanite DA, it just means that they were trained by Luther at Caliban and sent off for duty. Having never met the Lion, their loyalty is to the Emperor alone. Also they are ignorant of what transpired at Caliban. After being delayed in the warp when the attack on terra happened, they arrived late at the "party". I could tie their foundig with the Angels of Vigilance. Part of them formed the Angels of Vigilance and other formed the Angels of Wrath. Not knowing what happened at Caliban they are not trusted by the unforgiven and are regarded with suspicion. Yeah I think im going with this. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Luther didn't let any DA off planet after he arrived. Would be the issue then if you are meaning he trained them as the only connection. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 Luther didn't let any DA off planet after he arrived. Would be the issue then if you are meaning he trained them as the only connection.The DA's at the wolf king, where did they came from then? I will alter the bits so it fits the continuity.I assume then that those Wolf King DA were sent by the Lion then? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 I do need to amend that. It was a several years after Luther arrived that he stopped sending out newly trained. My bad on that. lqtm. So they could have been ones after Luther arrived but before he stopped sending them out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostrael Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 @Harleqvin, yes I think I mixed that up with the plasma explosion aboard the rock and the disappearance of the data about the Lions Sable Chapter. I had been a while. Did you read the Wolf King Novel? I liked it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265252 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 The explosion was all to hide the info they have, but they have a bunch of info hid elsewhere. that silly Cypher. Screwing with current DA. lol That's one I haven't read, nor looked up much info on. It's on my list of novels/novellas for DA I need to read.and I know why I thought Luther stopped outgoing marines and such when he arrived on Caliban. Prologue of Fallen Angels has them arriving on Caliban and then in chapter two it has Luther canceling all departures and shipments. odd chapters are with Nemiel* and even chapters are with Zahariel. The year gap between the prologue (arrival,) and chapter two (canceling all outgoing vessels,) is 53 years. lol. All the Luther major downhilling started happening in chapter 2.$28 for the eBook of Wolf King.....GW, you're killing me, smalls. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostrael Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Knowledge is rare, precious and costly... and a drug of some kind. I fear know I already spend more in equipment of my library than in my troops. *sigh* The Dark Angels became a huge Legion, thanks to Luther. I guess now only Lord Cypher knows the exact numbers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Not near as huge as Ultramarines. lqtm. Both times a Legion was smote from the records (the ones they never talk about,) the Ultramrines became larger. Why they had so many damned second founding chapters. lqtmZahariel and them did a good job improving the training regiment for the training cycles of the recruits.Edit - to get back to the OP. Yeah then that wouldn't be bad as a second founding idea.Just a detachment of enough marines for a chapter that happened to arrive late. They probably would still do stuff based upon the Unforgiven directives fluffwise, though. Depending on how many centuries before they appear, they might have been first heavily questioned by the DA. It was sometime during M31 that the fallen first appeared. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted December 31, 2015 Author Share Posted December 31, 2015 It seems that the DA Captain from the wolf king was bitter because they were "forgotten" and didn't actively participated im the great crusade. Tomorrow ill think more about this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 Okay, here's a thought: In most cases, chapters are actually founded by Terra, with the Mechanicus providing the gene-seed from its vaults and the High Lords nominating either the parent legion or one of their descendants to provide a training cadre (so, for example, the chapter I'm working on right now was founded to protect a tactically important world using Imperial Fists gene-seed with a training cadre from the Excoriators). Sometimes, a chapter is founded when an existing chapter grows too large due to some legit (or "legit") mistake or circumstance and asks for permission to split in two. My impression is that the Unforgiven have grown by pleading the latter case as often as they reasonably could and, in the case of the former, making sure that the training cadres include enough members of the Inner Circle to indoctrinate the new chapter. So, what if this chapter was founded, but the training cadre was composed of a bunch of non-fallen Lutherian Dark Angels who had been hiding among the Dark Angels for a couple of centuries. They realize that they're living on borrowed time, so when the High Lords commission a new chapter of Dark Angels gene-seed, they arrange to get themselves onto the training cadre. Then they kill off anyone else in the training cadre, making it look like an accident, and indoctrinate the new chapter with their own view of history. By the time the rest of the Dark Angels find out about it, they can't really do anything about it, because the new chapter is considered loyal and upstanding by the High Lords, and chapters can't just run around declaring war on each other without one of them being excommunicated! They'd still be seriously on the outs with the Dark Angels, of course, but as long as they stay in good with the High Lords and the Inquisition and stay out of the way of the rest of the Unforgiven, they'll do okay. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostrael Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 That would be a vile dishonorable act... Lord Cypher would not approve. You don't need to declare war. It is an unforgiving galaxy and sometimes whole chapters just vanish. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted January 1, 2016 Author Share Posted January 1, 2016 Actually its the back stabbing and secrets that I want to avoid xD Just some dudes that have no connection to the Fallen and the Unforgiven due to specific circumstances. Why the Lion gene seed? Apart from perturarbo it's the only primarch I can relate to. Despite liking BT I don't relate to Dorn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 The Dark Angels no longer know all Successor Chapters. The knowledge was lost by an 'accident' long time ago. Some Chapters have lost their commanding officers and knowledge of the past. According to who? According to the latest Codex, it's quite the opposite: “Despite their impeccably pure gene-seed, the Dark Angels have been passed over for many of the Foundings that have created fresh Chapters to fight the Imperium’s wars. Yet from time to time the Adeptus Terra have been forced to permit the Dark Angels another Founding, the records of which have mysteriously vanished shortly afterward. In this way, an uncertain number of Unforgiven Chapters have been created, each giving every outward appearance of fighting their own wars for the Imperium, while secretly aiding in the Dark Angels’ hidden hunt.” Excerpt From: Games Workshop. “Codex: Dark Angels (Enhanced Edition).” Games Workshop, 2015. iBooks. https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/codex-dark-angels-enhanced/id1008194787?mt=13 Regarding the Consecrators, it's never mentioned that the Dark Angels don't know where they came from. The ignorance shown is that of the Imperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostrael Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 Actually its the back stabbing and secrets that I want to avoid xD Just some dudes that have no connection to the Fallen and the Unforgiven due to specific circumstances. Why the Lion gene seed? Apart from perturarbo it's the only primarch I can relate to. Despite liking BT I don't relate to Dorn. No back stabbing secrets... Where is the fun in that? You could say that it is a first founding chapter, originally created and dispatched by Luther. Not present at the fall of Caliban... Loyal to the emperor. After the destruction of Caliban they distanced themselves from the other new found Dark Angel Chapters. Thinking the destruction was their primarchs fault and don't regarding their Calibanite Brothers as traitors. ...Sounds somehow boring. The Dark Angels did not share the secret of the rebellion with their brothers or they just shared it with their Leaders, who refused to listen. @ Phoebus I'm sorry, as I stated above I just mixed up something I read a while ago. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 Something else. I question whether it's a foregone conclusion that the Unforgiven would destroy loyal Lutherites popping in from some flavor of time travel. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the Dark Angels and their Successors would try to corral any such pre-Heresy Lutherite force before the Imperium made contact with them. I think it's also safe to assume the Supreme Grand Master would have the Librarius put these loyalists through the ringer to dig up any evidence of treachery. That having been said, I think the Inner Circle is more than aware that there were Luther-trained garrisons who didn't turn traitor. Remember, if Fallen Angels is to be trusted (and I don't see why it shouldn't be), Luther had his lieutenants send detailed reports to the Lion on the disposition of manpower and materiel he was sending off from Caliban. We as readers don't know how many such garrisons were sent out, Wolf King-style, but it's probably a safe bet that the Dark Angels did. It's inconceivable that the Dark Angels Legion would not have tried to reconnect with them at some point either before or after the destruction of Caliban. Any such garrison will either have stayed put, marshaled forth to join the Imperium or Horus, will have been recalled by Luther... or will have been lost in the Warp for decades/centuries/millennia, until they arrived to become the subject matter of Sete's DIY project. Where the possibility of being recalled to Caliban is concerned, however... Wolf King makes it seem that Luther did not try to recall every garrison he had sent out, not even after he declared rebellion against the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Syddraf Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 I always liked the idea of the Consecrators being saved/returned legionnaires from Calibans fall. Maybe even a parallel to the wolf's 13th company, hence why multiple pattern components in one suit Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317707-angels-of-wrath-color-scheme-opinions/#findComment-4265449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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