Lostrael Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Naaa...the secrets are not as bad as Alpha Legions. It's the kind of secrets you don't tell everybody due to ehrm... "operational security". Later on, you don't tell anybody because something went wrong and you know everybody would angry at you. "Just imagine you had a plague of ants in your room, because you left some cookies lying around. You feel guilty and don't tell your quartermaster. You swipe them away, cleanse everything and draw signs in cinnamon to prevent them from entering, but their invisible taint remains. Sooner or later they will find a way back in and will devour everything. You need to be ready to fight them, where ever they turn up." Ok... may be I should leave the apocryphal tales to the Chaplains... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 IMHo, it's much easier and plausible to have them be a later founding from DA gene-seed that by a freak accident on the warp or a Tyranid attack or something else,the assigned DA training cadre never reached the new chapter in one piece. Only a DA sgt and an apothecary that weren't fully into the DA secret survived. So they carried on their training duties while they waited for reinforcements to arrive ... Problem is The Rock moves around and the Warp is a fickle mistress so centuries passed and the Chapter grew from DA gene-seed while ignorant of DA's past. So basically you have a DA Chapter that still doesn't know of the fallen. Maybe they will in the future, maybe they won't. In any case saves you the trouble of messing with the Second Founding and keeps a lid on the Fallen problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbaeza94 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Yes as Chaps said. Chapters know about the fallen to varying degrees, I've heard that certain deathwing may even know more than entire chapters. Your chapter could be slightly indoctrinaed,such as the first rites of the raven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 I will probably keep them outside the Unforgiven. But , its a big galaxy and Fallen appear everywhere. They could later on apreeend some Fallen and learn of the events at caliban from the wrong source. Then is just a matter of keeping the dudes in stasis with psychic dampeners ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Arkley Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 I did the warp plot thing with added destroyed chapter. But my guys are pure Unforgiven. I could link it if you fancy a read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 Ye sure! Link it! I will start laying down the basis for the chapter in the Liber Astartes tonight. Hopefully my bits will arrive this week and in 2 weeks I have a kill team game. 250 points heralds of ruin rules. Probably will make a Terminator capatraci (or whatevs) sargent. Cause my chapter will have old school stuff ;) And being a Black Templar fan aswell, which actually goes well with DA 1st company, only them will use Terminator armour. Probably will use Belial Rules for my Grand Master. No ravenwing tho. But plenty of rhinos. Terminator and greenwing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Arkley Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308182-etl-the-blades-are-drawn-1st-vow-3k-wip/ Â I hope it helps in some way even a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 Read a bit, will read the rest when I get home after work. One question about the Order Ravenwing. Ravenwing guys used to quest alone right? I think that my Interrogator Chaplains, will be Knights Errant, not Garro related ;). Instead of Ravenwing, just a Guy on a bike on a quest. No markings just personal ones,and the only dudes with robes xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 I do like what Chap Lucifer said but I still don't see how they wouldn't know of the fallen pretty fast because of other DA and their SC's would happen to come into contact with them and would talk to eachother. SC chapter master goes to talk to their Chapter master and finds out somehow they know nothing about Fallen will bring up issues, as one they don't know anything and two the other SC just informed them then that there is something going on. Then that gets back to DA informing them the issue and then maybe that SC gets into trouble for them telling someone about the secret. Honestly going with fluff/lore influenced, I think better would be that they are similar to Angels of Absolution. They don't see themselves guilty. Understand not saying anything about the secret to others. Maybe they don't actively pursue but are more Info gatherers and pass along the info to the DA and other DA SCs only going after Fallen in the more direst of circumstances only if that. I am not trying to hamper you, but by fluff/lore it is really really hard to have them not be part of the Unforgiven, or not know about the fallen somehow, and them being an actual SC of the DA.I know the only reason of what I have said is that it is that I am being fixated on the fluff/lore as we now know of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 They only mention a bit of about Ravenwing in the Pre/Heresy era. One of the thing's I remember were they were mounted and very good. lqtm. I would have to reread the couple books I have that have mentioned them. But i might also be confusing The Raven's Wing. They have mentioned both in some of the DA HH novels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 Think it was Descent of Angels. The Order on Caliban had Ravenwing. Well, my guys will be more Knightly than Monk. So even if they dont hunt the fallen, its still a stain in the honour of the old legion. Maybe thats where my Ravenwing Dude will come in. A small elite squad to hunt down a fallen. Or Maybe the Knight takes with him the Failed neophytes on a near suicidal mission, if they survive they can have another go at being a marine. After mind wipe ofc. Yep Interrogator Chappy.with Shroud of Heroes, Mace of Redemption and a bike. Then I can ally him to my guard ;) just for fun games ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 While I like the 'outside the box' thinking, I have to agree with the above, the Unforgiven chapters would go ape and wipe them off the map the moment they discovered the Luther connection. Then 'Black Templar' them. Â I have played with an idea of having a chapter consisting of the ship's company of a Battle Barge in the Lion's fleet being caught in the Warp storm and being flung into the future. They wouldn't be fallen (Being freshly betrayed they could possibly be even more anti-chaos) but being separate from the Unforgiven too. Â DM Yeah from what I've read The Dark Angels go all "screw the rules, we're gonna make you repent" when it comes to instances of inter imperial red tape. Â I think the only way they could survive is to not be noted as Dark Angels at all, because by their existence they confirm the 'greatest shame' of the first Legion. Â Its a shame in the sense that its a terrible misunderstanding, many legions had divisions... Though too often the rebels won out over the loyalists. Then again, seeing what happened to the thosand sons, and suddenly not having a Primarch (how did they play that?) Must have made then really understandably nervous...the Imperium had just won a galactic civil war at GREAT cost, and the guys in charge were talking about dissolving the legions and dispersing power and I bet there were a lot of questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 White Scars had a division. No one seem to have bothered with them xD. I think i got my fluff worked out. So the Lion send Terran Marines and Luther back to Caliban. Luther then send a batch of Terran veterans with newly Calibanites marines to garrison duty to boring nebula or whatever xD. Soon after the warp storms intensified and the garrison got stranded for some years, and eventually when they came back Caliban was destroyed and the Lion and Luther wwre gone. Since they were loyal to the Emperor they participated im the scouring bringing their wrath to the traitors, being left behind bothered them and they wanted to prove their worth and loyalty. Eventually they find out about the Fallen due to chypher. Lets say they were one of the 12 chapters present. Since they were lets say put aside by the Lion and Luther, they dont consider this to be their fight, but pledge their oath of secrecy and aid to capture the fallen. They move to the galactic west, and get themselves a cosy feudal planet, and since the majority of veterans were from Terra, they adopt the old terrab knight traditions. They will have a 1st company terminator wing that goes with the Grand Master. To be a company master you need to have served on the 1st company. Then these badass dudes may have the option of going to Ravenwing. Ravenwing are the solo dudes of the chapter. They follow the Fallen Trail, and take with them 5 hand picked neophytes. They operate outside Chapter rules. Their objective is to capture fallen and deliver them to the Unforgiven, so they can do the repent thing. Its the chapter way to clear the stain on their honour. And a way to be above suspicion from their fellow Unforgiven "cousins" ;) If by chance any of the Neophytes survive or does a great deed, he can choose to go Knight Errant ( ravenwing) or Knight Exemplar ( deathwing). Â Rough sketch I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Questions : why did they leave their garrison duty? If they were sent back to Caliban by the lion and then received order to build a garrison by Luther, why would they be received as brother in arms and not with suspicion? After all their last commander was a traitor for all purposes. With the Lion dead and a fratricida war , anyone just appearing out of nowhere claiming Luther send them to Garrison a planet would be probably killed on sight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Think it was Descent of Angels. The Order on Caliban had Ravenwing. Well, my guys will be more Knightly than Monk. So even if they dont hunt the fallen, its still a stain in the honour of the old legion. Maybe thats where my Ravenwing Dude will come in. A small elite squad to hunt down a fallen. Or Maybe the Knight takes with him the Failed neophytes on a near suicidal mission, if they survive they can have another go at being a marine. After mind wipe ofc. Yep Interrogator Chappy.with Shroud of Heroes, Mace of Redemption and a bike. Then I can ally him to my guard just for fun games I like that idea. The SC is the testing ground for found Legionary DA that have been considered not to be actual Fallen/Lutherian Legionary DA after constant probing. Kinda similar to part of my workings for my army that I am working on a background for. I think it was that book. I know they made at least two mentions.One being The Ravenwing and another being The Raven's Wing. there was a guy who had on his right shoulder pad his knightly order colors and it was white/blue quartered and it had a wing with a claw/talon wrapped around a sword and the knightly order was called The Raven's Wing, and another book they called a group within, I believe The Order, called the Ravenwing and they were solely mounted knights. I think it was from a short story for the The Raven's Wing order. Maybe in the Primarch book. need to reread the books and short stories I have, because I lost the file I had that I was writing down all that info into. Details for doing my Pre/Heresey army. I actually used the quartered blue/white with the ravenwing emblem for my Int-Chap/Chap in TDA's right Shoulder pad ={D> I'm actually trying to find more documented knightly orders and the books/short stories. Questions : why did they leave their garrison duty? If they were sent back to Caliban by the lion and then received order to build a garrison by Luther, why would they be received as brother in arms and not with suspicion? After all their last commander was a traitor for all purposes. With the Lion dead and a fratricida war , anyone just appearing out of nowhere claiming Luther send them to Garrison a planet would be probably killed on sight... I don't think they would be killed on sight. I think they would be heavily questioned about everything. To make sure they weren't traitors, especially if they didn't run or try to shoot them when they got back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Maybe even that's why the Int-Chaps were created. To root out if a DA was actually Fallen.To "interrogate" them if you will ;{D> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 The Fallen (and the list thereof) are only those Dark Angels that were known to be on Caliban at the Fall of Caliban. Those that weren't there, regardless of reason for not being there, are not Fallen, as they weren't tossed through the Warp Storm. Those traitors absent from the Fall are just traitors. There may even be DA that tried to remain loyal to the Lion and Emperor while on Caliban who are named as Fallen. Â The knightly order called "The Raven's Wing" was the same order incorporated into The Order as the "Ravenwing". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 So basically what if they weren't on the Lions fleet they were traitors? I think that's 40k DA level of paranoia. Its a very unflexible way of seeing things. When my dudes get in contact with DA, they dont know about the fallen yet. Maybe they are not regarded with the same level of trust, and are interrogated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Ignorance and innocense proves nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 For what it's worth, Sete, I offered you my thoughts on this question earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 So basically what if they weren't on the Lions fleet they were traitors? I think that's 40k DA level of paranoia. Its a very unflexible way of seeing things. When my dudes get in contact with DA, they dont know about the fallen yet. Maybe they are not regarded with the same level of trust, and are interrogated. That is the key to DA modus Operandi. If they don't trust you, they interrogate you. If still they don't trust you, then you will be dead. A garrison coming out of the black, not fully respecting the Lion, won't win 100% trust.. and when it comes to DA you either have 100% trust or you have zero. 99.9% doesn't cut it. That garrison at worse would be interrogated and then dead... at best they would7could be divided through existing chapters and carefully watched. In no way they would spawn a founding chapter, not in those days of post Heresy where the there were so many great acts of treachery. Trust was not in abundance those days. Sorry if I come off as harsh, but if you want to mess with established cannon, the explanation has to be flawless from a DA stand point. Just saying "my guys are second founding, they were in a black out, came later after the war on Caliban, and don't really care about the Fallen, Luther or the Lion but help the either way because they learned the secret from Cypher" doesn't cut it as far as a believable Second founding Chapter goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 Well lets try to get a flawless explanation then. Its alright and im appreciating the input. It seems my best chance is to make them "disappear" in order to survive and later appear as a unknown founding chapter. now how can you make that happen? I really would not like to go unknown founding, but it seems I will at least until we get more info from the HH books. A Garrison that quietly disapeared during the turmoil of the Horus Heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 It seems I will have to be ambiguous on the chapter lore. Until at least more info comes out fr the HH books. Etheir way I choose to go, it seems secrets will be close behind. Either way it will be Lions Gene Seed, and I had some good ideas around here. Probably I will follow the Angels of Vigilance and Star Phantoms route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 You can always create a cursed founding chapter. They mysteriously vanish or transform themselves or something happens. So maybe your Chapter was created with DA Geneseed during the Cursed founding and always had Da traits... Until one they they cross paths with DA, hunting for the fallen... So they are involved in the Web and the truth is not to their liking... Begrudgingly, they accept to keep the secret and aid DA but fallen hunting is far from their top priorities... Rumors say that they even aided Fallen escape. But that's only rumors... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 After reading the thread again, going with my original idea is a bit hard. I aim to do a old school chapter with mk4. I can't plausibly separate them from the Fallen Hunt without arising several issues. In truth DA are too damn paranoid to let anyone with the smallest Fallen knowledge go away. So ill go traditional way. A regular unforgiven chapter. Then if more info comes to light I can alter the chapter lore to my will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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