Leviathan Dreadnought Question

[Red-beard]

The Leviathan Dreadnought rules specifically state that the model may not benefit from any rules or bonuses conferred by being part of a specific chapter, formation, or detachment. 

 

This obviously means the dreadnought played as BA does not have Furious Charge (or Iron Hands chapter tactics for an Iron Hands army, etc.) and may not benefit from the +1 init from being in a Baal Strike Force. However, Corbulo's Red Grail and Sanguinor's Aura of Fervour grant bonuses to nearby friendly units with the BA "faction". Note, it is a "faction" benefit, not a "chapter" benefit. 

 

Are faction benefits the same thing as chapter benefits? Is a Leviathan Dreadnought eligible to benefit from these "faction" bonuses? Or are they the same as "chapter" benefits?

[shandwen]

I would say that faction (imperium) contains chapter (BA), so it would not get the bonuses. It is an area that could go either way (GW does tend to not quite follow thier own rule-set with faq's).

[Landrick]

"A model with this special rule may not benefit from any rules or bonuses
usually conferred by being part of a particular Chapter, detachment or formation"

 

^^ Taken from FW site for the Leviathan. And since both Corbulo and Sanguinor read "with the Blood Angels Faction," I do not believe you are able to benefit. Both of there buffs are benefits of being part of a particular chapter.

 

This does not, however, prevent the Leviathan from receiving psychic buffs.

[Red-beard]

For example, two Astra Militarum units are both from the same faction, but they don't have a chapter. Similarly, an Iron Hands unit and an Ultramarines unit from codex SM both have faction "space marines", per the SM codex, but they don't have the same chapter. So clearly, the terms "chapter" and "faction" can't always be used interchangeably.

 

The question is whether a faction is the same thing as a chapter. I think it's clear from the Codex: Space Marines example above, that they are not synonymous. 

 

The Leviathan rule prohibits the dreadnought from getting chapter benefits, it does not prohibit the dreadnought from getting faction benefits. The Sanguinor/Corbulo rules explicitly benefit units with the same "faction", not units with the same "chapter". 

 

In fact, the rule can be easily interpreted to mean that the dreadnought does not benefit from chapter tactics. Why does that prohibit it from receiving benefits from a nearby character bubble buff?

 

Iron Hands chapter tactics benefit vehicles in the same chapter, not the same faction. So clearly, some rules benefit models in a "chapter" whereas other rules benefit models in a "faction". It is clear that the Leviathan cannot benefit from the Iron Hands chapter tactics. But why can he not benefit from a "faction" benefit? It's not a "chapter" benefit. 

[Jolemai]

From the BA Dreadnought guide over on our Resources page:

 

Note that whilst it may never receive bonuses from our Chapter, BSF or FTSF Detachments, it might be able to receive psychic blessings - but that is subject to debate until FW say otherwise. It should also be noted that a nearby Sanguinor, Corbulo or the Sanguinary spells Unleash Rage and Wings of Sanguinius can make things very interesting with the potential that this Dreadnought has.

It is Faction:BA because it is a HS choice in our Codex. The only Chapter benefit we have is FC, which it doesn't get.

[RedemptionNL]

Well, Wings of Sanguinius wouldn't work, that can only target Infantry units.

[Charlo]

Yeah I'd say it can benefit. It's faction BA and the rules don't mention faction, which is a clearly defined term of the game.

[Kastor Krieg]

A faction is the column / row on the Allies table. "Astra Militarum" is a faction, "Tau" is a faction, "Skitarii" is a faction, "Imperial Knights" is a faction, "Clan Raukaan" is a faction, "Sisters of Battle is a faction, etc.; this more or less translates to "codex", as in "a group that has it's own book / ebook of rules".

So, technically, I could imagine that it doesn't gain the benefits of Iron Hands CHAPTER, but it might gain benefits of Clan Raukaan, if there are applicable ones. It will not gain benefits from Imperial Fists, but it might gain those particular to Sentinels of Terra instead. That's a logic example only, though. Because, in both those PARTICULAR instances, the bonuses are conferred to units with Chapter Tactics: IH / IF, substituting the original benefits. If there are any bonuses that refer only to "Sentinels of Terra faction" or "Clan Raukaan faction", the Leviathan should be able to benefit from them, per RAW.

Per RAI, it's a typical omission by GW desing team and the intent obviously excludes factions or any other "group" bonuses as well.

[Jolemai]

Well, Wings of Sanguinius wouldn't work, that can only target Infantry units.

This is why I always ask people to let me know should there be any errors in the summary ;-)

[Xenith]

So is your argument for this that the BA are not a chapter, but a faction?

[Charlo]

So is your argument for this that the BA are not a chapter, but a faction?

 

That is exactly what they are :) in the terms of the rules at least.

[Jolemai]

So is your argument for this that the BA are not a chapter, but a faction?

Who was that in response to?

[Red-beard]

So is your argument for this that the BA are not a chapter, but a faction?

 

My argument is:

 

1) Of course the BA are a chapter. But there is also a BA faction. Chapters and Factions are two different things by definition.

 

2) Corbulo's and the Sanguinor's rules benefit models in the same "faction", not models in the same chapter 

 

3) The Levithan's rules prohibit him from gaining benefits from chapter/formation/detachment special benefits, not special faction benefits. I read this as the Leviathan can't benefit from chapter tactics or from detachments such as the BSF.

 

 

RAW, the Leviathan should benefit from the blessings of the Sanguinor and/or Corbulo. RAI....who knows?

[FarFromSam]

"A model with this special rule may not benefit from any rules or bonuses
usually conferred by being part of a particular Chapter, detachment or formation"

 

I'm of the idea this is meant to deter abuse the mix and match of Chapter tactics and or formation bonuses, and not unit/item help.  For example, a banner that confers +1 to combat resolution to say all other Ultramarine units in the army.  The dread would benefit from the banner, but not UM chapter tactics.  My two cents.

[Charlo]

Exactly that farfromsam!

[Xenith]

Does the Leviathan's rules say explicitly that the Leviathan becomes part of the BA faction? Otherwise it's a non-faction unit, that is allowed to be taken by the BA faction. Like fortifications.

 

Not that I'd ever ague this in a game. - passive effects, no, but active stuff, yes. If it's red / black, then it's BA.

 

 

 

 

I'm of the idea this is meant to deter abuse the mix and match of Chapter tactics and or formation bonuses, and not unit/item help.  For example, a banner that confers +1 to combat resolution to say all other Ultramarine units in the army.  The dread would benefit from the banner, but not UM chapter tactics.  My two cents.

 

Whatever you do, don't go to the Iron Hands part of the forum. Plenty of people there arguing that models without the Chapter Tactics Special rule, are not from a chapter (like predators, the Leviathan, etc).

[Jolemai]

Does the Leviathan's rules say explicitly that the Leviathan becomes part of the BA faction? Otherwise it's a non-faction unit, that is allowed to be taken by the BA faction. Like fortifications.

 

Not that I'd ever ague this in a game. - passive effects, no, but active stuff, yes. If it's red / black, then it's BA.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm of the idea this is meant to deter abuse the mix and match of Chapter tactics and or formation bonuses, and not unit/item help. For example, a banner that confers +1 to combat resolution to say all other Ultramarine units in the army. The dread would benefit from the banner, but not UM chapter tactics. My two cents.

Whatever you do, don't go to the Iron Hands part of the forum. Plenty of people there arguing that models without the Chapter Tactics Special rule, are not from a chapter (like predators, the Leviathan, etc).

It says it's a HS choice for a C:BA army. FW datasheets are selected as if they belong to said Codex.

 

Flipping this over, if a Leviathan is not Faction BA, it can't be chosen in a BSF or FTSF. I seriously doubt a Leviathan is Faction-less. Otherwise it wouldn't need the disclaimer it has in the Relic of Darkness rule.

[Xenith]

Yes, re reading it, I agree.

[Red-beard]

Yes, my reading is also that, since it may be selected for a codex:BA army, it is faction BA.