How much did HE know? HH Emperor discussion (HH Spoilers)

[GoogleusMaximus]

Alright, Outcast Dead, a book that is no means everyone's favorite but in spite of the problems you might have with it we must remember that near the end the Emperor, in perhaps one of his more human moments, is telepathically conversing with the astropath the plot circles around.

 

This Astropath has seen the future and knows the Emperor will fall and Big E comments that HE knows.

Just what did he know?

In the Warhammer setting it has been explained in a myriad of ways that the future is not set (except for certain events where the gods of the warp take direct notice) and there are countless twisting potential futures that may be... narrowing down as the present draws closer to those potentials.

Just what did HE know, did he see the heresy coming, at least the potential of it?
Was the Heresy clouded from HIM until it was actually underway or was HE too distracted b y his project.
Was his manner of death fixed or did every potential future show him falling?

We may not know all the details but I am curious to hear ideas and fan theories.

[Legatus]

The lore has allways been fairly explicite that the betrayal of Horus came as a great shock to the Emperor.

 

He may have had an inkling that the Chaos Gods would try something, but the Heresy he did not see coming.

[ZebraM]

It's probably a "he can see all the different paths, but isn't sure which will come to pass" type deal for most things, but I think the Heresy was clouded from him by the Chaos gods.

[GoogleusMaximus]

And this is why I am asking that question... how much did he know once things kicked off?

[Void Knight]

It's possible that the Emperor knew he was going to fall and that one or more of his sons were going to betray him.

 

He just probably wasn't expecting his favored son, Horus, to be the arch-traitor.  Nor was the Emperor expecting a loyal son like Magnus to burst through the Emperor's secret webway project, ruining what is essentially a father's model train set, that when broken unleashes a portal to Hell.

 

My guess is that he would have suspected Guilliman to secede and create his own empire, or for either Cruze or Angron to go insane and have be put down (by none other than the Space Wolves, the Emperor Executioners).

[Augustus]

It's possible the Emperor knew a betrayal was coming and even planned for it or desire it (thunder warriors)
I agree with Croshaw in the Morning and that he could see futures. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't implied in the Night Lords series that Talo's visions are not induced by the warp and therefore desired by Abaddon? Perhaps the same can be said of the Emperor's. WHY he didn't see Horus or the others turning is a good question indeed because he did do things that would actively encourage them to do so.

[Mellow]

He could see a single "path" that Humanity could follow to salvation. Knowing that to deviate from that path would mean certain failure.

 

His foresight became clouded by the turbulence in the warp so he was unaware of many things.

[GoogleusMaximus]

All are good theories and ideas as to why it was that he didn't see Horus betraying until too late

[Sete]

He could not be all powerfull and all knowing at the same time. The mark of a true god. So I assume that by powering the astronomican he was all powerfull and did not knew what was coming.

[Brother Captain Ed]

He could not be all powerfull and all knowing at the same time. The mark of a true god. So I assume that by powering the astronomican he was all powerfull and did not knew what was coming.

What?

[Sete]

 

 

He could not be all powerfull and all knowing at the same time. The mark of a true god. So I assume that by powering the astronomican he was all powerfull and did not knew what was coming.

What?

The Emperor himself said he could not be all knowing and all powerfull at the same time right? Right.

He had a path that he had to follow to save mankind. How did he know this? And why didn't he saw the betrayal coming? I assume along the way he traded the all knowing ability for the all powerfull one. Like one at a time perk. A god has omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence. Old Emp didn't. Chaos gods on the other hand...

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

He could not be all powerfull and all knowing at the same time. The mark of a true god. So I assume that by powering the astronomican he was all powerfull and did not knew what was coming.

What?

The Emperor himself said he could not be all knowing and all powerfull at the same time right? Right.

He had a path that he had to follow to save mankind. How did he know this? And why didn't he saw the betrayal coming? I assume along the way he traded the all knowing ability for the all powerfull one. Like one at a time perk. A god has omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence. Old Emp didn't. Chaos gods on the other hand...

The chaos gods don't have all three either. They are famous for infighting where they have the wool pulled over their eyes.

[Sete]

Well I read somewhere that they aren't really gods, just extremely powerfull Warp Creatures. But my point on the Emperor remains.

Just an assumption tho.

[Marshal Rohr]

Gods don't really exist in the setting. Just powerful beings with the title.

[Brother Captain Ed]

 

 

He could not be all powerfull and all knowing at the same time. The mark of a true god. So I assume that by powering the astronomican he was all powerfull and did not knew what was coming.

What?

The Emperor himself said he could not be all knowing and all powerfull at the same time right? Right.

He had a path that he had to follow to save mankind. How did he know this? And why didn't he saw the betrayal coming? I assume along the way he traded the all knowing ability for the all powerfull one. Like one at a time perk. A god has omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence. Old Emp didn't. Chaos gods on the other hand...

 

Uh....no.  A monotheistic creator god as described by Aquinas and required by the various Abrahamaic faiths must possess the "omnis."  However a god is merely the supreme being of some particular thing or concept.  This is why pantheistic deities have portfolios.  Nothing about godhood in and of itself requires omni-anything and the Chaos gods, as described, certainly possess none.

[Sete]

Well we are describing a god according to our cultural definition of one.

Have anyone seen a God? No.

For all we know even without the omnis those warp entities can be described as gods.

Even without existing on a plane of existence they can affect it. Seems pretty powerfull to me. How would you categorize such a creature?

[Brother Captain Ed]

Well we are describing a god according to our cultural definition of one.

Have anyone seen a God? No.

For all we know even without the omnis those warp entities can be described as gods.

Even without existing on a plane of existence they can affect it. Seems pretty powerfull to me. How would you categorize such a creature?

I'd definately call the chaos gods...gods.  They appear to be the supreme incarnation of their respective traits and they act accordingly.  But you had said "A god has omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence."  Hence my disagreement. 

[Sete]

 

 

Well we are describing a god according to our cultural definition of one.

Have anyone seen a God? No.

For all we know even without the omnis those warp entities can be described as gods.

Even without existing on a plane of existence they can affect it. Seems pretty powerfull to me. How would you categorize such a creature?

I'd definately call the chaos gods...gods. They appear to be the supreme incarnation of their respective traits and they act accordingly. But you had said "A god has omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence." Hence my disagreement.

And I was wrong about the chaos gods on having those traits, true. They are not all knowing. But I think they might nulify each other on that aspect maybe? But its clear that the Emperor power and knowledge wise, was inferior to the chaos gods overall. While it seems he is as powerfull as them (maybe) he lacks on the knowledge department. Which brings to my previous point. How and when did he lost the all knowing ability and became all powerfull? Assuming that my interpretation is correct.

[Brother Captain Ed]

 

 

Well we are describing a god according to our cultural definition of one.

Have anyone seen a God? No.

For all we know even without the omnis those warp entities can be described as gods.

Even without existing on a plane of existence they can affect it. Seems pretty powerfull to me. How would you categorize such a creature?

I'd definately call the chaos gods...gods. They appear to be the supreme incarnation of their respective traits and they act accordingly. But you had said "A god has omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence." Hence my disagreement.

And I was wrong about the chaos gods on having those traits, true. They are not all knowing. But I think they might nulify each other on that aspect maybe? But its clear that the Emperor power and knowledge wise, was inferior to the chaos gods overall. While it seems he is as powerfull as them (maybe) he lacks on the knowledge department. Which brings to my previous point. How and when did he lost the all knowing ability and became all powerfull? Assuming that my interpretation is correct.

 

Well, he's not all-powerful either.  If he was, he'd have simply destroyed Chaos by fiat.  No entity in the setting is remotely close to omnipotent.

 

As for his relative power-level compared to Chaos Undivided....that's intentionally pretty vague. They are clearly afraid of him and the whole Firetide thing suggests that he can rival them in power.  On the other, they never seem panicky about the whole thing and the Warp is infinite.  I posit that the point is intentionally left to interpretation.

[Sete]

I was using his own description of his abilities on his talk with Pius. Know no fear book I think?

Not sure.

[Candleshoes]

If we are to base the answer in only what we have seen and read from the heresy novels, I think the best clues are in the chess game in Outcast Dead.

 

The whole premise of it revolved around the Emperor being either all powerful OR all knowing, not both. Since the critical points sought by all parties were information based, we can safely assume which of those 2 options the Emperor is: an all powerful being, who is ultimately blind, especially to those things he holds close.

[Legatus]

The Emperor has never been all powerful or all knowing. He had to rely on human science, even if he was of a supreme intellect so that he was able to greatly advance it. What human science was not able to produce, the Emperor was not able to produce. That means his knowledge was limited (couldnt just replicate Eldar-Tech/Necron-Tech/Tau-Tech at will, for example), as was his power (couldn't just poof powerful armies into existence from nothing).

 

Any talk of all powerfulness or all knowingness are just the respective author feeling smart and philosomical. Replicating a debate issue from the religion/science discussion of our times. It has really nothing to do with the Emperor and is misplaced in this setting.

[Phoebus]

The Emperor strikes me as being in a predicament very much like that of Paul Atreides, from Frank Herbert's Dune series: he possessed a great degree of prescience, but is ultimately (and tragically) unable to change what he knows is coming. I could be wrong, and may have to re-read The Outcast Dead again, but it seemed to me as if the Emperor was experiencing past, present, and future almost simultaneously - which may have contributed to his inability to affect change.

 

Ultimately, I think the Emperor was an incredibly powerful, nigh-immortal, potently prescient being possessed of an intellect and psychic prowess unmatched by other human beings (perhaps any non-divine creatures). His power was such that he worried the Ruinous Powers (as he threatened to undo the status quo, and could potentially have radically changed things by shepherding humanity into a "safe" psychic state), but he strikes me as always having been an underdog. He did the best he could facing a stacked deck, and came close - but not far enough.

[Kilofix]

How about a Renegades view on this topic, lol?

 

Maybe the Emperor didn't know, and never knew as much as we think he knew?

 

Maybe he just wanted everyone to think he knew as much?

 

Maybe it was just his hubris?

 

Or maybe Fateweaver is the Emperor?

[BNG1991]

I do believe the Emperor saw the possibility of Horus' betrayal, he simply didn't want to believe it as that might be the ploy of the Ruinous Power. Blind confidence on his beloved son did bring disaster in the end...

 

Speaking of that, did the Emperor truly believed the paths of his sons would eventually follow? it's just the matter of trust...