How much did HE know? HH Emperor discussion (HH Spoilers)

[Legatus]

The Emperor ahd no idea that a heresy was coming. Here is a description from 'Visions of Heresy' about what the Emperor was preoccupied with when Horus betrayed him:

 

"Unbeknownst to his troops or the Emperor, Horus has been corrupted by the secret powers of the warp. Chaos has whispered in his ear and Horus has listened to its guile and wickedness. Why should Horus do as the Emperor bids? Was he not the one who led the Space Marine Legions to countless victories? Does he not bear the scars of a thousand battles? Was the Emperor there to shed a tear as brave Space Marines died horrible deaths at the hands of their alien foes? No, it was Horus who fought and bled and cried! Horus who planned the wars and the victories. Horus who has earned the loyalty of the Space Marines. Horus who should be acclaimed Emperor or Mankind!

 

The Emperor sits on his throne on Earth and dreams of the future. He has single-handedly created the most awesome military force ever known. His genius mapped the genes and artifice of the Primarchs and their Space Marine progeny. His brilliant mind conceived the Grand Plan: the marrying of the great Empires of Terra and Mars and their Great Crusade to rescue mankind from the thrall of aliens and warp-beasts. It was the Emperor who helped realise the full potential of the Navigators and enabled humanity to travel vast distances through the warp without peril. But his work is not finished and now he dreams his dreams and his vast intellect calculates the destiny of mankind. Time is against him. His precognitive powers are fading; the pressure to maintain the galaxy-wide signal of the Astronomican grows daily; the future has become clouded and dark. He is aware that others like him are aborning, but weaker than he, less able to fend off the seductive embrace of the Warp and the unknown horrors within.

 

It is upon these emerging psykers that the Emperor has focused his attention. Now is the time for him to order the fabrication of the Psy-Engines and Occullum Test Stations, the devices that will search out the inert psyker genes withon the populace. Emerging and latent psykers can thence be trained and purified, protected from the dangers of the warp and the malignant entities therein. Mankind's destiny is a fragile thing and only the Emperor can guide it well and safely forward.

 

The Emperor's great armies have served their purpose. Now is the time for the Legions to be disbanded and the Space Marines set to other tasks guarding the worlds of humanity and policing the new regimes. The warrior lords that are the primarchs are to become the rulers of worlds and administrators of the Grand Plan.

 

Horus seeks vengeance" He wants to rid the galaxy of mankind's alien foes utterly. Not a single alien should remain alive to threaten humanity. The Legions must hunt them down and eradicate them all! The glorious armies of the Imperium should not be forced to put down their guns and swords. They must not be emasculated and converted into mere policemen and gatekeepers! The daemon argues a clever and compelling case in Horus's ear and the Emperor should beware the serpent."

- The Horus Heresy - Visions of Heresy - Book One, p. 10

 

He was not expecting a grand betrayal. He was planning for a bright future.

[Mellow]

He has extreme levels of power. We know this to be true as all 4 Chaos Gods withdrew their influence from Horus just before The Emperor did his Soul-killing psychic lance. We can possibly deduce from this that the Chaos Gods themselves were worried they would be injured by this attack or possibly also have their "God Souls" damaged or destroyed by such an attack.

 

However we can also guess from Mechanicus that the Golden Throne is similar to the Silver Throne that was used on Mars as an Akashic Reader (essentially used to read knowledge from the Warp). Giving the user vast knowledge. I imagine this to be similar to Stargate where someone can have ancients knowledge downloaded to their brain providing they can cope with such knowledge.

 

My personal theory is that the Golden Throne may have been an Akashic Reader/Writer allowing The Emperor to create things, whether that be objects in the Human Webway or even perhaps ... souls for ... "Sons"

[Phoebus]

Legatus,

 

The caveat that comes with that view, however, is that aspects of the storyline have already been changed and thus we shouldn't be surprised if others are as well.

[Legatus]

That's from 2013. Has there been a more recent novel that disputes the Emperor's plans or Horus' reason for turning?

[Phoebus]

Visions of Heresy was written in 2013?

[Marshal Loss]

The latest version was indeed published in 2013. It's more or less just the old 'Collected Visions' with updated art in a single volume.

[Legatus]

That passage was in the previous 'Collected Visions' as well, so is older than 2013. However, other passages had been rewritten for the 2013 'Visions of Heresy' (most notably Horus' adress to the other traitor Legions after Istvaan V, where previously they were immediately departing to Terra, the new description now rather makes them prepare for a longer war.) So evidently the editors of the newer book were updating the descriptions they feld needed it.

[Carach]

he probably knew of possibilities involving betrayal. I consider it all to be a calculated gamble that just didn't pay off. The chess scenes very much resemble that kind of thing.

 

during outcast dead he obviously doesn't know of the exact facts on the future otherwise the entire story wouldn't occur (whereby this astropath has to seek out the emperor, with this knowledge of the future that he can only impart to Him. It's even admitted that the future is hidden from him at the time.

 

Don't really see why people would dismiss what was written under 3 years ago/kept in the re-release when other things were edited. There's nothing outlandish in that passage above and it's become more and more obvious as the series has developed that the Space marines and primarchs were made for more than merely war (Horus and co. simply did not realise that) 

[Brother Captain Ed]

 it's become more and more obvious as the series has developed that the Space marines and primarchs were made for more than merely war (Horus and co. simply did not realise that) 

I was just pondering this, as well.  The Thunder Warriors were purged precisely because they were aggression made flesh and the Emperor wanted his angels of death to be more than that.  It's rarely discussed in our age of war without end, but Space Marines are supposed to be have their mental faculties expanded as well as their physical ones.

 

Given that, and assuming the Emperor wasn't just a giant golden idiot, what if the rebellion of the primarchs was shocking to him because he expected their superior mental ability to be on the level of their physical ability??  The primarchs seem to overcome any physical obstacle thrown at them.  Guilliman even survived 10 hours in a vacuum without a helmet.  Perhaps, when tempted by Chaos, he expected them to be able to resist in a similar fashion.  Therefore, his surprise was a reflection on the singular design failure of an otherwise perfect system.  After all, he didn't make the same mistake twice with the Grey Knights...

[goosey_j]

He has extreme levels of power. We know this to be true as all 4 Chaos Gods withdrew their influence from Horus just before The Emperor did his Soul-killing psychic lance. We can possibly deduce from this that the Chaos Gods themselves were worried they would be injured by this attack or possibly also have their "God Souls" damaged or destroyed by such an attack.

As of ADB's Talon of Horus though, we know that the daemons in the warp refer to Horus as "The Sacrificed King". Ergo, he was always going to be a sacrifice, the gods would have known that from day 1. With that in mind, I think the gods withdrew their power from Horus intentionally to make sure his end came about. Did the Emperor have so much power that the Chaos gods (through Horus) were scared to go toe to toe with him? Or did they already have the outcome of the fight completely set up, and just needed to make sure that Horus went down?

I know one of those definitely sounds more Chaosy then the other...

And of course, there was the whole delicious bonus of the sheer despair Horus must've felt as they abandoned him completely and left him to realise the full extent of his actions.

Oh Chaos gods, you so bad.

[Legatus]

Given that, and assuming the Emperor wasn't just a giant golden idiot, what if the rebellion of the primarchs was shocking to him because he expected their superior mental ability to be on the level of their physical ability??  The primarchs seem to overcome any physical obstacle thrown at them.  Guilliman even survived 10 hours in a vacuum without a helmet.  Perhaps, when tempted by Chaos, he expected them to be able to resist in a similar fashion.  Therefore, his surprise was a reflection on the singular design failure of an otherwise perfect system.  After all, he didn't make the same mistake twice with the Grey Knights...

 

That was the original plan. But this is old material:

 

"The Emperor's most long-sighted plan to counter the insiduous influences of the Chaos Powers was the creation of the Primarchs: genetically engineered super-humans with god-like powers. The Emperor's intent was to create a whole race of super-humans from the genetic blueprint of the Primarchs. By making them loyal and strong he hoped that they would prove immune to the malign psychic influences of Chaos.

The Primarchs were to be shining examples of humans free from the taint of corruption. The energy of the uncorrupted warp would flow through them as it flowed through the Emperor himself, invigorating them and confering special powers such as were possessed by the shamans of old.

Unfortunately, things did not go quite according to plan. Despite the Emperor's best attempts to shield the project from the penetrating eyes of the Chaos Powers they still managed to learn of it. The Primarchs were still in their foetal stage, growing in special amniotic tanks, when the Chaos Powers combined their energies to spirit them away in an unexpectedly bold move.

Even for the Chaos Powers this kidnapping represented a colossal expenditure of energy. The Primarchs were sucked through the warp and scattered on separate human worlds in distant parts of the galaxy. The Chaos Powers did not have the resources to destroy the Primarchs, but they did the next best thing which was to hide them from the Emperor. They were to remain hidden until after the waking of Slaanesh.

(...)

The initial conquests [of the Great Crusade] concentrated in areas where the Primarchs had been hidden. Using his psychic powers the Emperor gradually located and found each of his original creations and united them with the Space Marine Chapters created from their genetic imprints. They seemed none the worse for their brush with Chaos, having grown up to be great leaders and warriors among the local human populations. In fact this appearance of normality was to prove deceptive, for some of the Primarchs had become tainted by their early contact with Chaos.

(...)

Horus's fall came as a great shock to the Emperor. For a vital month the Emperor hesitated, stunned by the extent of Horus's treachery, unable to believe that his friend and general was really gathering forces against him."

- 1st Edition 'Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned', p. 177-178

[Mellow]

He has extreme levels of power. We know this to be true as all 4 Chaos Gods withdrew their influence from Horus just before The Emperor did his Soul-killing psychic lance. We can possibly deduce from this that the Chaos Gods themselves were worried they would be injured by this attack or possibly also have their "God Souls" damaged or destroyed by such an attack.

As of ADB's Talon of Horus though, we know that the daemons in the warp refer to Horus as "The Sacrificed King". Ergo, he was always going to be a sacrifice, the gods would have known that from day 1. With that in mind, I think the gods withdrew their power from Horus intentionally to make sure his end came about. Did the Emperor have so much power that the Chaos gods (through Horus) were scared to go toe to toe with him? Or did they already have the outcome of the fight completely set up, and just needed to make sure that Horus went down?

I know one of those definitely sounds more Chaosy then the other...

And of course, there was the whole delicious bonus of the sheer despair Horus must've felt as they abandoned him completely and left him to realise the full extent of his actions.

Oh Chaos gods, you so bad.

True, they do refer to him as "The Sacrificed King" and Chaos being Chaos this could be either a) because his demise was planned or b) because they abandoned him right at the end and let him be beaten.

Both could be true, planning Horus' demise means that they have effectively crippled The Emperors plan of uniting Humanity or abandoning him because they found The Emperor couldn't be totally destroyed still ends with the same result. Crippled military forces, leaderless and no central long term "defence" or "plan" to fight against Chaos (that The Emperor did have, webway travel, etc)

[1000 Sons]

If what is told from Legion is to be believed, a Horus victory would result in the end of Chaos since he would go about killing them off after his victory over the Emperor.  The Chaos gods could have also known this and the extent of their plan was just to cause enough damage to the Imperium to have a steady source of people turning to chaos and swelling their numbers.

 

With the scattering of the primarchs the Emp must have known that at any time his plans could be turned on their head.  I think the prmarch and astartes plan was just the next step in the thunder warrior M.O.  Serve your purpose, then be prepared to be replaced with a new kind of soldier needed for the next job.  Everything he did was for the benefit of humanity, at some point he needed to know that humans could take care of themselves without the need of a super soldier baby sitter.

[Augustus]

Maybe he's called that because the Emperor was to be the one to sacrifice him?

[Marshal Rohr]

Maybe he's called that because the Emperor was to be the one to sacrifice him?

I doubt that's what ADB intended.

[Conn Eremon]

We only see that epithet used after the fact. Chaos being Chaos, it could be that Horus was always meant to fail, or it could be what they called him after he failed. He wasn't the Victorious King, but the act which killed him did put their enemy out of action. Almost like a sacrifice.

 

I would hardly argue that is the truth intended, but it's unlikely to be so cut and dry as to have only one truth, Chaos being Chaos, 40k being 40k.

[Lazarine]

I have always wondered just how much knowledge of Chaos the Emperor had before the heresy kicked off, especially after reading A Thousand Sons.

 

He clearly knew a lot about the Warp and the corruption that it can bring, but I do wonder if he was aware of the full power of the Chaos Gods themselves. A lot of his actions make more sense to me if I imagine that to a degree he actually believed in the Imperial Truth and that the full extent of the Gods was hidden from him. We know that they could cloud his knowledge of the future, so they may have been hidden from him.

[HeritorA]

BNG1991 - illogical conclusion. Which way the kind of Angron, Curze should have followed? 

[goosey_j]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Horus was always "The Sacrificed King", since, you know, Chaos is all knowing. Tzeentch knows everything that ever has been and ever will be. He is the great manipulator. Horus was the sacrifice needed to cripple the Emperor and put the Imperium into stagnancy, and he was always destined to be so.

[Conn Eremon]

That's not actually true though. Chaos has never been all-knowing. The closest to it is Tzeentch, but his knowledge of the future is based upon his not infallible ability to tell the lie from the truth that his oracle provides in equal measure. Not to mention that his own nature or deific domain precludes the possibility of being all-knowing.

 

They're certainly hyper-aware, you could say, knowing more about the scheme of things than probably anything else, but they are far from all-knowing.

[Mellow]

I have always wondered just how much knowledge of Chaos the Emperor had before the heresy kicked off, especially after reading A Thousand Sons.

 

He clearly knew a lot about the Warp and the corruption that it can bring, but I do wonder if he was aware of the full power of the Chaos Gods themselves. A lot of his actions make more sense to me if I imagine that to a degree he actually believed in the Imperial Truth and that the full extent of the Gods was hidden from him. We know that they could cloud his knowledge of the future, so they may have been hidden from him.

Of course he didn't believe The Imperial Truth himself. It was purely designed to stop the masses of Humanity from worshipping Gods and providing them with power. He was after all, entirely immune to the corruption of Chaos and from what is written he was trying to keep Humanity going until evolution caught up with him and the rest of Humanity could resist Chaos as he could.

 

After all, he was a psychic reincarnation of thousands of Shaman. (and yes I know that's old fluff but until the HH series retcons it we don't have anything else to go by. If it gets retconned then so be it, I will have to put up with it just as everyone else will).

[Lazarine]

 

I have always wondered just how much knowledge of Chaos the Emperor had before the heresy kicked off, especially after reading A Thousand Sons.

 

He clearly knew a lot about the Warp and the corruption that it can bring, but I do wonder if he was aware of the full power of the Chaos Gods themselves. A lot of his actions make more sense to me if I imagine that to a degree he actually believed in the Imperial Truth and that the full extent of the Gods was hidden from him. We know that they could cloud his knowledge of the future, so they may have been hidden from him.

Of course he didn't believe The Imperial Truth himself. It was purely designed to stop the masses of Humanity from worshipping Gods and providing them with power. He was after all, entirely immune to the corruption of Chaos and from what is written he was trying to keep Humanity going until evolution caught up with him and the rest of Humanity could resist Chaos as he could.

 

After all, he was a psychic reincarnation of thousands of Shaman. (and yes I know that's old fluff but until the HH series retcons it we don't have anything else to go by. If it gets retconned then so be it, I will have to put up with it just as everyone else will).

 

 

And if the Gods were able to hide their existence from the Emperor, in the same way in which they hid the future from him during the Horus Heresy. If he believed that there were no Gods, that the Warp was simply another dimension containing entities that he sought to combat, then the Imperial Truth makes a lot more sense, as does the way in which he treated some of his sons.

 

I very much like the Shaman theory, and hope that the fluff from Realm of Chaos is kept, but I do wonder how much He truly knew (at least before Horus turned). The war against Chaos is not the same as the war against the Chaos Gods.

[Midgard]

My take, and the one I adopted in Twisthammer (Horus Heresy reimagining with fan-made primarchs), is that the Emperor knew that some of his sons would rebel, and worked to direct the events in a manner where he would still be able to defeat them in civil war. It would be consistent with what he told the astropath in "The Outcast Dead" (paraphrasing from memory, that sometimes you cannot win a game, all you can do is play for a tie or for "least worst" outcome), and it would also make sense in light of how the Emperor treated some of his sons (i.e. Angron, Lorgar) - almost as if he was driving those specific sons into heresy. Now, I don't know if Horus was his intended primary antagonist, or if someone else was supposed to take that role (and Chaos managed to up the stakes by converting the one son who was not expected to fall), but looking at the traitor primarchs, there seems to be a pattern of misfits who are often mistreated by the Emperor, or whose worse tendencies were not curbed.

 

Another thing to support this view - the concept of the Emperor is clearly influenced by Dune's Paul and Leto II, especially the latter's planning for a collapse of his empire as a part of his master design to preserve humanity. As ruthless as the Emperor is shown in the background, this would fit his character as portrayed in the Horus Heresy series.

 

We may never know the truth (unless GW/BL give us an explicit answer via novels, which would be the kind of reveal that can cast the entire Heresy in a different light), but it is, IMO, a valid theory at this stage.

[HeritorA]

And still one BL authors clearly described that Emperor know his future, and some hints that he does not. That what you get then different authors write the setting.

Clear conclusions will be given by A-D-B in his 'Master of Mankind', I think