Daylight Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 After reading through Tempest from Forgeworld about the Ultramarines and their noted strategic tendencies (targeted decimation, shock assault, limited rebuilding campaigns, etc.) I started wondering how different those would be for the chapter after the second founding. I assume most legion actions were performed by groups not much bigger than a few 40k sized companies to a chapter (post heresy, not the 1000 strong companies of the legion). As such, would the chapters act differently post- second founding? Or would they act in much the same way, though on a smaller scale? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/318222-legion-to-chapter-doctrine-differences/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 Well, the Ultras especially had a huge number of Marines, already split into multiple chapters - some if which exist in 40k. It imagine specialists would probably have stayed together to create a chapter that leans to a certain style of warfare OR mixed amongst themselves to promote a new brotherhood and build the wide skills foundation needed in a chapter of Marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/318222-legion-to-chapter-doctrine-differences/#findComment-4277127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 Strategic differences between the legions and chapters are huge. The legions did not require much (if any) support from imperial navy/guard forces compared to the chapters which lack nearly every type of heavy support, along with the com ppl lete lack of any abilty to keep a presence accross any place larger than a city (fluff has companies conquering planets but no 1,000 bodies could scour an entire planet even at the chqpters tech level). On a tactical level not too much would change though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/318222-legion-to-chapter-doctrine-differences/#findComment-4277438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 the theory behind a chapter 'taking' a planet will be with them doing the Sons of Horus approach of taking off the head(s). Imagine surgical strikes into each of the controlling points of a world - especially when in the 41st millenium, there tends to be a single person or group of people that control entire planets. Marines are not typically used for drawn out wars in 41st millenium (that is the job of the guard), they were however used for them during the 31st Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/318222-legion-to-chapter-doctrine-differences/#findComment-4277554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AfroCampbell Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 An interesting read is the Soul Drinkers novels, in there they discuss the splitting of the first founding chapters from the VIIth legion based on both the leader's preferences of style and selection of marines. It specifically states the Templars were selected by Sigismund, and Polux being assigned the newest recruits to form the Crimson Fists, whilst the Soul Drinkers were formed from the planetary assault companies that already existed in the VIIth legion. The fluff of the Excoriators also established that these dudes were formed from those elements under Archamus defending the wall during the Seige of Terra. The Fists Exemplars are also a first founding chapter from those marines who supported the split to chapters earliest in the VIIth's history. Similarly the Executioners were formed later on from elements of the Imperial Fists under Fafner Rann and were kept as a single chapter due to their combat tendencies. I think overall each chapter retained some elements of its parent legion, whilst also being a distinct enough entity within a legion to be recognised as a united force with commonality. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/318222-legion-to-chapter-doctrine-differences/#findComment-4277593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 AfroCampbell has said what I did but used an example to make it make sense :P top dog! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/318222-legion-to-chapter-doctrine-differences/#findComment-4277614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AfroCampbell Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 Haha sorry Charlo! I got on a bit of a roll ranting on about 7th legion successors! You had totally already nailed it! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/318222-legion-to-chapter-doctrine-differences/#findComment-4277623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AfroCampbell Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 And you are totally right about the Ultramarines too Charlo: there has already been fairly explicit mention of Novamarines and the Praetors of Orphaeus, not so much in name, but in the heraldry described. Interestingly the heraldry of those marines at Sotha also matches that of the Death Spectres, however oddly these are supposedly Raven Guard successors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/318222-legion-to-chapter-doctrine-differences/#findComment-4277634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 I thought the Heraldry was Scythes of the Emperor? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/318222-legion-to-chapter-doctrine-differences/#findComment-4277643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 I thought the Heraldry was Scythes of the Emperor? Correct, the Scythes homeworld is listed as Sotha. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/318222-legion-to-chapter-doctrine-differences/#findComment-4277698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AfroCampbell Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 Oh sorry, you are right, they have very similar heraldry! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/318222-legion-to-chapter-doctrine-differences/#findComment-4277717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 After reading through Tempest from Forgeworld about the Ultramarines and their noted strategic tendencies (targeted decimation, shock assault, limited rebuilding campaigns, etc.) I started wondering how different those would be for the chapter after the second founding. I assume most legion actions were performed by groups not much bigger than a few 40k sized companies to a chapter (post heresy, not the 1000 strong companies of the legion). As such, would the chapters act differently post- second founding? Or would they act in much the same way, though on a smaller scale?During the Scouring Era, it would end up being a mixture. In Sons of Wrath by Andy Smillie, we see the Flesh Tearers and the Eagle Warriors. Because Amot starts out so anti-Codex(even though the Blood Angels had already acceded to it and split up) that he keeps the Flesh Tearers together as a Chapter and isn't letting them split up into Companies yet. But on the flip side, we also see an Eagle Warriors Company that is operating as a sole Company. So it's kind of a haphazard, give-and-take as Guilliman's new Codex Astartes begins to take hold and break the Legions down into their independent Chapters and everyone slowly begins to follow suit. And contrary to Guilliman's vision of the Chapters being versatile forces that can break apart and reform at whim, and because of the familiarity of tactics, multiple Chaoters could act in concert in mimicry of the Legions, many of the Chapters began to immediately form their own traditions right off the bat and basically ruined the idea. So in the Scouring era immediately following the Heresy, yeah it probably wouldn't be that uncommon to see the Chapters still trying to function as they had before by either operating as whole Chapters or having the Companies clump together. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/318222-legion-to-chapter-doctrine-differences/#findComment-4277754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomMarine Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 I'd say going to the codex would have been fairly easy for the RG and salamders due to their drastically reduced size and the ironhand essentially just fractured down clan lines. The blood angels didn't have a primarch to gainsay it. The codex actually suits the scar style of warfare with lots of smaller rapid forces compared to a singular legion size force. Dark angels are still legion pretty much just on the sly. Wolves don't care. So that just leaves the fist and dorn who in general resist the codex until almost the end of the scouring. IMO the breaking of the legions was actually a pretty good idea as u have lots of what what essentially garrisons of you hardest hitting troops scattered far and wide enough that you lots of high power rapid response forces to quickly smash the problem if they can if not fight holding actions until the guard and navy arrive with the hammer to the sm scalpel. Where as the legions would be just a few massive armies that can only take years to get places due the scale of the galaxy. And going by the new beast arises book the imperium rapidly loses the ability the produce Astarte's on the scale required by a legion. Yes there has been times when the presence of a legion strength force would have turned the tide but at the same time what about those times when 20 marines on sector patrol found a space brimming with genestealer on course to a planet or came to the aid of a single planet being attacked by DE slavers. IMO it basically comes down to this legions existed to create the imperium Chapters exist to protect it That was probably my longest post Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/318222-legion-to-chapter-doctrine-differences/#findComment-4278287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 Chapter Organization sucks for any job besides a HVT elimination mission. Codex fleets are incredibly hamstrung compared to the insanely strong fleets of the Legions. Legions could also successfully conduct conventional open terrain operations that chapters can't. Essentially, a legion can do anything. A chapter can only deploy quickly, kill a specific person or blow up a specific target and then they have to withdraw before they are overwhelmed on the ground or in space. The only reason you ever see space marines doing otherwise in the fluff is because it's written by a studio filled with wanna be marvel writers. Read ADB novels for good examples of realistic space marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/318222-legion-to-chapter-doctrine-differences/#findComment-4278375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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