Is the answer to take more Bikes? Or less?

[Ipos]

Jink does not change the rate of overheating. Twin-linked plasma has a 1:36 chance of overheating. Both the initial roll and the reroll must be 1. You cannot reroll a normal miss into overheat

Debatable. I've seen it argued both ways.

[PhilB]

If you were snap shotting (be it from jinking or shooting at something in the air) and rolled a bunch of 1s-5s then rerolled them due to twin-linked, would any subsequent rolls of 1 not cause an overheat? I've been playing my Black Knights this way

edit; Just checked the PDF on my phone of the rules, it pretty clearly states they both need to be a roll of a 1, interesting! I've been playing that one wrong for a while then...

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yup, the process is simple;

Roll all your to hit dice, keep hits naturally,

Re-roll non-'ones' misses, add those hits to the first hits, discard all other misses from those dice, including any ones,

Re-roll original 'ones', keep those hits too, any 'ones' now Get Hot, so roll saves vs. only those 'ones'.

Bit off topic though, but for me more Knights is ALWAYS a good option

[Master Avoghai]

Yup, the process is simple;

 

Roll all your to hit dice, keep hits naturally,

Re-roll non-'ones' misses, add those hits to the first hits, discard all other misses from those dice, including any ones,

Re-roll original 'ones', keep those hits too, any 'ones' now Get Hot, so roll saves vs. only those 'ones'.

 

Bit off topic though, but for me more Knights is ALWAYS a good option :lol:

And how do you identify the model that suffered from the gets hot? The hunt master? The apothecary? The standard bearer? The company champion?

 

I personnaly roll my models one by one... Easier to identify. ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

How come the twin-linked overheating crops up almost as soon as BK are mentioned :D

 

Anyway, I do have another question. One thing that really annoys me is that DA have no bike Troops. With WS you can get Sicaran Battle Tanks, Pods and other toys all while having a biker core. DA can not do it without taking Tacs or Scouts.

In that respect, wouldn't WS be superior? Or do DA bring enough to the table to justify the literal Troops tax.

[DeadZone]

edit; Just checked the PDF on my phone of the rules, it pretty clearly states they both need to be a roll of a 1, interesting! I've been playing that one wrong for a while then...

They don't both need to be a roll of 1 to overheat. Just the 'twin-linked' re-roll. 

When you roll a snap-shot with plasma, your chance of overheating and hitting are the same. Now that you can re-roll, you get another chance at both hitting and overheating.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

 

edit; Just checked the PDF on my phone of the rules, it pretty clearly states they both need to be a roll of a 1, interesting! I've been playing that one wrong for a while then...

They don't both need to be a roll of 1 to overheat. Just the 'twin-linked' re-roll.

When you roll a snap-shot with plasma, your chance of overheating and hitting are the same. Now that you can re-roll, you get another chance at both hitting and overheating.

You are the only one arguing it this way. Besides, this is not what this topic is about.

[DeadZone]

 

You are the only one arguing it this way.

 

--------

 

@ DeadZone - Not quite true. I rarely jink with obscured RWSS, as they have a 2+ cover save, which is enough to bounce most shots off. 

 

1. Pardon me then (just checked it for the first time), I play with merciless 5th and 6th edition players that haven't read all of the rules. Now that I know this, the black knights are a little less bad imo.

2. You must play with lots of 4+ terrain cover. 

[Frater Cornelius]

No harm done, bud ;)

 

As for the RWSS, it gets +3 cover. You see, the Darkshroud has Shrouded and gives the Speeders in its unit Stealth. How? Because the bubble affects every friendly unit in the radius, including the own unit, but the wording says that only DS does not benefit from Stealth, but it does not say that other models in the same unit do not.

 

So, the DS has Shrouded and the Speeders have Stealth. Seeing as both rules are contagious (I.e. when one model has it, all in the same unit get this special rule) and a Vehicle Squadron counts as a unit, those special rules will be passed on and the Speeders will now have Stealth and Shrouded. It could be argued that the DS does not get Stealth from passing it on either, but I do not see any reason why the Speeders in the unit would not benefit from it.

 

So it is enough if the unit is obscured by anything, really. It will have a 2+.

[PhilB]

I wish I could figure out how to quote on this forum...

 

@ Immerstrum regarding White Scars, completely discounting any fluff (forgive my ignorance), to me White Scars seem more suited to aggressive mounted/mechanised combat, they seem to excel at taking ground through aggressive use of bikes, transports and supporting units.

Whereas the Ravenwing seem more to be a complimentary force to the Deathwing. Their core rule (Ravenwing) seems like it's geared towards letting your bikes survive long enough to get into position and precision drop your Deathwing in.

These two points of view aside, when you look at both sides formations (as in the special rules they gain) it feels to me that if you like to play aggressive and get your bikes stuck into assault, White Scars are the way to go, but if you prefer circling around the board shooting then Ravenwing look more appealing.

[DeadZone]

As for the RWSS, it gets +3 cover. You see, the Darkshroud has Shrouded and gives the Speeders in its unit Stealth. How? Because the bubble affects every friendly unit in the radius, including the own unit, but the wording says that only DS does not benefit from Stealth, but it does not say that other models in the same unit do not.

It passes it to units within 6" instead of models. Since the Darkshroud counts in the same 'squadron' for the formation, it wouldn't confer the stealth unless it seperated from the unit, in which case it wouldn't confer shrouded.

 

These two points of view aside, when you look at both sides formations (as in the special rules they gain) it feels to me that if you like to play aggressive and get your bikes stuck into assault, White Scars are the way to go, but if you prefer circling around the board shooting then Ravenwing look more appealing.

It's the trade of having a better charge + troop choice bikes, or having more bikes survive the impending shooting to charge (and hit and run, if white scars don't have it).

[Frater Cornelius]

@ DeadZone - Read it again, please. It says 'friendly unit', which always includes the own unit. Or are you telling me that Ezekiel's +1A bubble does not apply to his own unit? Or do you want to tell me that the Ravenwing Banner does not allow the bearing unit to re-roll morale checks? Because then the bearing unit wouldn't count as a friendly unit.

Furthermore, the DS does not affect itself, but nowhere does it state that it does not affect other models in its unit/squadron.

 

But I do admit that this is, once again, a very shaky topic and yet another proof of GWs inability to make Formations in line with their own rules.

[DeadZone]

Comparing the Dark Shroud to the Banner is a fair argument, and I wouldn't have thought about it that way. Having a 4+ cover save out in the open is pretty nice, and I will be taking advantage of it.

 

As a side note, Ezekiel's thing only affects models within 6".

[Frater Cornelius]

Comparing the Dark Shroud to the Banner is a fair argument, and I wouldn't have thought about it that way. Having a 4+ cover save out in the open is pretty nice, and I will be taking advantage of it.

 

As a side note, Ezekiel's thing only affects models within 6".

 

And so he does. Fancy, that :D

 

Anyway, now that the rules debate is resolved, lets return to the original topic ;)

[Brother Dark]

yes, lets,

 

id like to see a survivability and damage output matrix for std bikers, black knights, deathwing terminators and deathwing knights all related to their points cost?

perhaps via percentage of the points cost so we can compare?

any takers?

[Frater Cornelius]

I'll see what I can cook up.

[Grand Master Raziel]

yes, lets,

 

id like to see a survivability and damage output matrix for std bikers, black knights, deathwing terminators and deathwing knights all related to their points cost?

perhaps via percentage of the points cost so we can compare?

any takers?

I don't have maths to back it up, but my gut feel is that standard Bikes and Ravenwing Knights are more survivable than Terminators of any stripe.  My group plays under a 40% Troops house rule, so what tends to get Terminators is volume dakka, which Ravenwing are more survivable against both on an individual model level and on a points level, particularly when the Dark Shroud is around.  Plus, Ravenwing have a better range of weapon upgrades than Deathwing, and far more mobility.  I've pretty much just stopped using Terminators.  These days, my go-to hard unit is Ravenwing Knights (sometimes the RWCS).  They can murder most things in assault, and vaporize harder assault units with their plasma talons.  They have the value-to-points ratio Terminators ought to have, but don't even come close to.

[DeadZone]

Yeah, if you're playing to play with/against the shooting meta then Ravenwing is by far the way to go.