ASM Rhino Rush. Viable?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

'Lo again B&C,

 

I've been thinking on some alternate list ideas, and I've happened across about 20 or so ASM bits from a lost bits box. Which has me thinking about the Flesh Tearers formation that allows 6 fast attack slots. How viable do you all think 5-6 assault squads with rhinos would be if you pushed them up the board turn 1? Obviously there is always the drop pods as well, but I've always been partial to fast tanks that give great LOS blocking cover.

 

On a side note, outside of drop pods what do you like about the ASM utility with a free rhino, and how kitted out do you make them? I'm not talking about the standard Meltacide MSUs I'm looking at a tangible squad that also looks good, and feels like a BAesque unit, just without jump packs. Dual flamers and dual hand flamers?

 

I couldn't really find anything when I did a forum search so I figured I'd just post it here!

 

Thanks in advance!

DBH

[Riot Earp]

ASM in Rhinos where great when you could assault from the vehikles when you stayed a round in them.

Nowadays i only put ASM with 2 Melta Combimelta (or double infernus pistol) in a pod and let them hunt vehikles.

 

I like our vehikles and play from time to time some tacs in razorbacks with lasplas or assault cannon. 6 Objektive secured vehikles with marines + heavy flamer inside are nothing to sneeze at.

 

If i had to put ASM in Rhinos i would kit dem out with 2 meltas because of the two fire points. Drawbak they got no OS and cannot assault of them even when the rhino got blown up.

[shaun03]

It's not a terrible list but has be fully committed. Lack of assaulting out of them hurts, but there is work around to it.

 

Set it up so there rushing in teams of 3 rhinos this way the turn this disembark the other rhinos can sheild them, than move out way and let them assult in. Also pop smoke when doing this, gives the sheild extra staying power. If you get what I am trying to say.

 

 

Supporting the rest of the list with tanks as well, for heavy support option, sicarans are made for this type of list, fast tanks that can shoot over rhinos but still befit of cover save from them. Point wise there not much more than Baal pred are and superior tank. 3 of them are down right nasty. Plus they won't eat up chunk of points.

 

Also laser destroy vins are great as well, and with BA upgrades become fast tanks too. They will destroy most heavy AV with ease and you don't have to worry about pie palates scattering on to you own guys.

 

For specail weapons melta would be my go to as well. Plus grav pistol fot Sgt. And mix in squad of all flamers for clearing out obj and hordes. Maybe 3 to 1 split on that.

 

Points wise for elites jump DC would benefit from the vast amounts of moving cover. Same with SG cover helps them more so. But points are going to be tight.

 

Now on biggest issue scoring units. Do you play it cheap on points and take bare bones scouts and just plan kill everything they put on table? Nothing wrong with going for kill every game but it may lead to more L and than W.

 

As long as there bunch of threats on the table rhinos should fair well. When faced with options make them make hard choices.

[Charlo]

How much do people rate the space marine gladius for thier free transports. Now imagine that, but instead you get two special weapons per marine squad and you are better in assault (albeit at the expense of razorbacks and obj secured).

 

The main advantage we have is that ours are fast, so you combine it with a CAD to score while the rest bombs around shooting plasma at people. I'd also potentially advocate veteran sergeants with combi flamers and a power weapon. 5BA ASM with a tooled sarge can decimate a full enemy Tac squad on the charge. Even more so if you double up against units.

 

Fast battle tanks work well with this list (effective 36 inch range on our vindicators remember) and with all the walls of AV some DC/SG can hop behind.

 

Battle plan would be to pressure enemy units one at a time until they break and go for objectives. They have a cent star? So what, they just killed a Rhino or 5 Marines. Maybe less with FNP.

 

HELL, you want to go all out you pod in some dreads to bullet magnet or even pop a LR with a moderate combat into in to act as the distraction.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Thanks for all the insight. A lot of really great ideas and advice. I know Reecus was really a fan of the Ravenguard Rhino Rush, andI think being able to grab free Rhinos is pretty awesome. Not to mention a better combat oriented unit versus a standard tac squad. Thanks for the replies!

[Brother Raul]

I don't believe its viable. Your dual flamer squads will :cuss up your charges and ASM are pretty poor to assault with. Having 6 of them mean you can gang up on weaker targets but any competent general with a death star will eat you alive. You have practically no anti tank so those rhinos will be popped en mass and you have no AP2 so death stars are going to eat what you throw at them. Razorbacks would solve this issue but they're not free.

 

ASM need their JP's for HOW dice in CQC. Don't see why people bother with ASM for CQC with C:BA. 5 man DC aren't too much more expensive than ASM with special weapons.

 

Good luck!

[Charlo]

I'd argue against that Raul. Against a deathstar our dudes won't do much, but you have the speed to avoid and lead them around the table, maybe even cripple them with dreads and such.

 

If the enemy has a load of points sunk into a death star then you play to objectives and feed them units.

 

Never underestimate regular assault Marines on the charge. Even five with two special weapons end up with about 13 S5 attacks on the charge. While this math hammers to almost 1.5 dead Marines, it will usually be more effective than that. Plus even if they lose, you hopefully held up a death star for a turn.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Well if you're playing MSU, you don't care about death stars. Oh look that 450+ unit killed 110 points of ASM or free rhino and still have to deal with the boys inside. I'm not too terribly worried about Death Stars. And you have other options. Like what if you want to take vanilla marine allies, or another detachment with objective secured? Honestly, I'd probably go with Melta combi Melta with lightning Claws on the sergeants or maybe dual grav-pistols or Grav-pistol power sword combo. Tank moving plasma wouldn't be bad either. It's all in perspective though. I'm more partial to the old Descent of Angels list anyways, with a sky hammer formation allied in.

[Riot Earp]

The Rhino idea was growing on me.

 

I would play 5-6 full 10 men squads with 2xmelta 1 Powerclaw (with maybe an infernus pistol for the extra attack and shot.) on veteran seargent in an flesh tearer strike force.

Eventually two squads of those with 2 x flamer and poweraxe. Combat squad the units. When your time is to charge you may get rage on the 10.

 

1 Tactical squad in pod

 

1 Sternguard squad with combigravs pod with a sang priest.

 

2 Heavy tanks (Sicaran and a predator)

 

Will try this definitely out.

[Remtek]

I play Rhino lists a lot, either gladius or BA. So the main obvious drawback is all the rhinos from assault squads are not obsec. On the other hand, the discount is really nice. There is no denying that gladius is just flat out better, but that does not mean it's not viable. Let's say you run 6 rhinos with assault squads and 3 with tacticals, then not having obsec will in some cases not be an issue. Due to the nature of how Rhinos can block off an objective. They can also tank shock obsec units away from objectives if you move them in a correct order. 

 

Since you often don't want to disembark mid game, i'd reccomend not taking the combi weapon, 2 special weapons so you can maximise firepoints.

 

Vs most lists you want to start with assault marines wrapped around the rhino, so they get a cover save, unless your playing vs massive anti infantry blasts and templates. Eldar will aim to stop your transports first regardless of marines being disembarked.

 

Your main goal is to move up past the halfway marker and block enemy movement so they can't get on objectives, this works great if you are playing maelstrom, but for eternal war there is a good chanse you they will punch through.

 

Having an inquisitor and 3 servo skulls really helps rhino rush lists as so many armies have scout, but if your playing vs a white scar battle company you will probably loose if you go second even with servo skulls. They will just move everything up and pop smoke, or flatout into cover. Then beta strike you turn 2.

 

The tricky part is really the movement phase, last tournament i got outclassed by a gladius player who moved up his rhinos so i couldt really do anything in my turn, next turn he killed 2 of my units simply by boxing them in and tank shocking.

[Brother Raul]

Was a little curt with my answer, pardon my poor expression and any offence cause. Late night posting :/ Think a rhino rush is absolutely viable; just not with ASM.

 

And yes an objective secured list beats deathstar list in most mission types, but why feed them expensive ASM when you can roast them and tie them up with a cheaper unit and have more of said unit?

 

Use 5 man tacs with heavy flamer, combi flamer or ten with a special & heavy dependant on meta. ASM just don't compliment the list because of cost and access to the heavy flamer weapons platform. You get roughtly 1/3rd more rhinos with savings on ASM to tacs too.

 

The idea of bubble wrapping a tac squad in a rhino being a good role for ASM to me is dubious. For deployment bubble wrap maybe scouts against a 1st turn melta alpha strike. It just doesn't make sense to use an expensive offensive unit to bubble wrap almost the same points. Bubble wrap a landraider with important cargo that is the lynch pin of your list by all means, but I'd personally prefer another rhino with and get the tacs for almost the same cost to saturate threat.

 

ASM to me are best used as a 5 man meltacide. x2 specs in a 5 man is their standard point of difference plus a free pod.  Jumpack wearing to deny charge, grab objectives and harassment unit or DS as a 10 man to combat squad are secondary roles. Bikes are arguably a better use of a FA slot too. I love ASM, I've done mathhammer so many times to try to justify their inclusion into a list outside of meltacide roles. I just can't find the points for them in my budget and the points decrease and obj sec for DC in the new dex has taken their secondary roles. Hell even a 5 man VV points wise is a better use at these secondary roles.

 

The use of the flesh tearer strike force is poor for a rhino rush too. It is made for a old school descent of angles list (buff sucks but; odds are roughtly 1/6th it will proc) but is best exploited as a either a razorback or bike slots detachment or carage detachment drop pod FA slots for allies. Just not ASM for a rhino rush imho.

 

Hope this helps you with your list! But as always play what you want, not what some dude on the internet thinks. I just tend towards optimal list strategies online except for when it comes to the Sanguinor haha.

[Remtek]

ASM in Rhinos are really one of the cheaper untis in our book. The reason you wrap is to make opponent choose. It of course depends on the list you are facing, but it is possible to wrap for a 5+/4+ cover and still keep melta guys out of los. If your transports get smoked turn 1, melta assault marines become kinda worthless. This of course depends on meta, but i have found double melta in rhinos much more effective than the 3melta drop pods. You either pop smoke or flatout them into some ruins mid field making a big threat zone. If you are playing vs an IG long range tank line, you can still get them very deep turn 1. 

 

So when you wrap 5 dudes around a rhino, if opponent goes for marines first what often happens is that there will be a few left alive, most likely with the special weapons that embark in our turn. Opponent will not really have accomplished anything, only killing a few ablaitive wounds.

 

Once they are mid field with smoke popped, it becomes an extremly durable unit considering the points, and with a maximum of 18" melta threat range 6"+6"+6" it will make manouvering towards or around them tricky. When podding meltacide squads, they really need that turn to count, and if your playing vs non mech lists or attrition lists they dont bring much to the table. 

 

Vs non mech lists; take wolf star for example, you can disembark your guys before moving and flat out the rhinos in front of the star. Considering they have 60mm bases and you can't move closer than 10mm to a model, thats let's you make a 14 inch wall with only 2 rhinos 5" +4" spacing 5" (length of a rhino). Assault units will either have to go around, loosing a turn, or charge the rhinos (while not being able to consolidate) Fast rhinos are also excellent for blocking the relic turn 1, while your infiltrated + scout moved scouts grab it turn 1.

 

I'm rambling now, but in my biased opinion i'm a huge fan av Rhinos. It's frustrating the gladius hit, cause rhino rush felt like one of the stronger list options for tournaments, it's to bad they are outclassed by gladius now.