DA successor and Ecclesiarchy "alliance"

[Magos Valkamar]

As part of the back story of my Dark Angel successor chapter I came up with the idea that they have close ties to the Ecclesiarchy – and by extension, the Ordo Hereticus and Soriatas – seemingly acting like loyal allies (dodging the “men under arms” issue). This is a front, of course, as they use this “friendship” to gather information on the Fallen.

Now before I start to flesh this out, do you think this idea is viable or do you think the other Unforgiven would consider this to be too risky?

[Isiah]

I guess it depends on how the close ties were formed. Probably need a bit more backstory before coming to an opinion.

 

But sounds interesting :)

[Bryan Blaire]

In my mind, the Dark Angels/Unforgiven would do something like this a lot, with both Marines and clandestine humans instructed to look for certain things without knowing any of the story.

 

Perhaps your Chapter's knowledge of the Hunt is minimal, retained only at the very highest echelon, who do not mix with the Ecclesiarchy except during battle planning.

 

One of the bigger questions is risk: what does the Chapter do in the name of friendship? Restrictions that cause questions would need to be minimized, so operational security becomes paramount. Does the Chapter Master keep off line records? How hidden are they? Do they have redundancy secrets to throw snoopy investigators off the trail? Does he maintain records off the cogitators network in private banks of records? Do they have secret nooks and crawl spaces, etc.?

[Harleqvin]

Yeah. More info may be needed. It's kinda hard to use outside The Unforgiven. DA are known to even kill someone who has not told anyone of info of Fallen for decades and the only one told the info to was the DA right before they killed him. That was actually one of the audio book stories. Malediction I believe.

[Magos Valkamar]

I guess it depends on how the close ties were formed. Probably need a bit more backstory before coming to an opinion.

But sounds interesting

The general idea is that they were created specifically to guard a highly populated system that consisted of several shrine worlds from a nearby xenos empire, mostly due to a lack of manpower (which sounds highly unlikely now that I think about it). That empire has been long since destroyed in a crusade the chapter was involved in however, and they now act like most other chapters, but keep their ties to the Ecclesiarchy as their fortress monastery is still located in that system.

In my mind, the Dark Angels/Unforgiven would do something like this a lot, with both Marines and clandestine humans instructed to look for certain things without knowing any of the story.

Perhaps your Chapter's knowledge of the Hunt is minimal, retained only at the very highest echelon, who do not mix with the Ecclesiarchy except during battle planning.

One of the bigger questions is risk: what does the Chapter do in the name of friendship? Restrictions that cause questions would need to be minimized, so operational security becomes paramount. Does the Chapter Master keep off line records? How hidden are they? Do they have redundancy secrets to throw snoopy investigators off the trail? Does he maintain records off the cogitators network in private banks of records? Do they have secret nooks and crawl spaces, etc.?

These are all things I really need to consider! I also think the chapter would try especially hard to look extra loyal, and probably try to give the impression that they have little or no interaction with their parent chapter, or even other Unforgiven.

[Radoslav]

I would be rather reluctant towards that (do not take me wrong- not dismissing idea totally). Please, consider: first and foremost trait of all Unforgiven chapters is fact, that they all remain connected so closely, they are practically a Legion. Add our secretive nature, fact, that chapter of Space Marines accepts orders only from chapter Masters (and they, in turn, from highest ranking officials of Imperium). Actually I am not quite sure if even Inquisitor can simply issue an order- I recall an short story from 4th edition SM Codex, where Inquisitor pressed for help, asked for assistance.

 

An idea- maybe if a shrine of Lion would've been involved things would be different? I mean: world once liberated (?) by Lion, with shrine dedicated to him and with contingent of Unforgiven as honorary guard in fortress- monastery outpost ? That might justify co- existence quite well. Just an idea.

[Magos Valkamar]

I would be rather reluctant towards that (do not take me wrong- not dismissing idea totally). Please, consider: first and foremost trait of all Unforgiven chapters is fact, that they all remain connected so closely, they are practically a Legion. Add our secretive nature, fact, that chapter of Space Marines accepts orders only from chapter Masters (and they, in turn, from highest ranking officials of Imperium). Actually I am not quite sure if even Inquisitor can simply issue an order- I recall an short story from 4th edition SM Codex, where Inquisitor pressed for help, asked for assistance.

 

An idea- maybe if a shrine of Lion would've been involved things would be different? I mean: world once liberated (?) by Lion, with shrine dedicated to him and with contingent of Unforgiven as honorary guard in fortress- monastery outpost ? That might justify co- existence quite well. Just an idea.

 

Not all DA successors are Unforgiven, but my chapter could still be a part of the Unforgiven all right – it's only the members of the Inner Circle that would know this. There are other ways of keeping contact without arousing suspicion, such as secret signs left on a certain world or maybe even a hidden communication station, for example. They wouldn't really take orders from the Ecclesiarchy or the Inquisition either, they would just be more open to requests from those groups. Somebody trying to order them around would probably be diplomatically brushed off.

 

I do like your idea about the system having been liberated by the Lion though, it would give a good reason for the chapter to have been founded with DA geneseed.

[Frater Cornelius]

I would be rather reluctant towards that (do not take me wrong- not dismissing idea totally). Please, consider: first and foremost trait of all Unforgiven chapters is fact, that they all remain connected so closely, they are practically a Legion. Add our secretive nature, fact, that chapter of Space Marines accepts orders only from chapter Masters (and they, in turn, from highest ranking officials of Imperium). Actually I am not quite sure if even Inquisitor can simply issue an order- I recall an short story from 4th edition SM Codex, where Inquisitor pressed for help, asked for assistance.

 

An idea- maybe if a shrine of Lion would've been involved things would be different? I mean: world once liberated (?) by Lion, with shrine dedicated to him and with contingent of Unforgiven as honorary guard in fortress- monastery outpost ? That might justify co- existence quite well. Just an idea.

Hope you do not mind me potentially copying that shrine idea. Just in case. It might become relevant :D

[Phoebus]

According to Fluff/Lore, All DA successors are a part of the Unforgiven. What chapters claim DA geneseed that the DA go "No they aren't with us"?

Even the Angels of Vigilance that helped in Armageddon third war don't say they are. The Chapter doesn't believe it, just that there are those in the Imperium that believe the Chapter is because of their look.

I don't know that the lore specifically states that all Dark Angels Successors are Unforgiven. It's obviously heavily implied that this is the case, but I doubt the writers would ever include something as absolute as that.

 

That aside, the only sources of lore I've ever seen for the Angels of Vigilance are the Armageddon and Codex: Eye of Terror material... Maybe I'm misunderstanding your stance, but nowhere is it stated that the Angels of Vigilance themselves don't believe they are descended from the Dark Angels. Everything about their background is stated from an outside perspective.

 

To the original poster:

 

Ties to the Ecclesiarchy are tricky. On the one hand, the newer background indicates (if I remember correctly) that the Dark Angels actually fought on the side of the Ecclesiarchy during the civil war fought in M36. And, yeah, there are superficial traits that would link the two factions together (a monastic knight look, etc.). On the other hand, the Unforgiven as a whole are, by definition, a conservative faction who maintain ethos and traditions dating back to M31. It would be very hard, I think for something like the Cult of the God-Emperor to supplant their beliefs. Is there room for something like this to happen? Sure. The Unforgiven being how they are, though, I imagine this would strain relations with their cousin-Chapters. After all, they're associating with outsiders on the basis of principles that don't have anything to do with the Hunt for the Fallen. Priorities!

 

Ties to the Ordo Hereticus, on the other hand? Dangerous. Very dangerous. Never forget that the Imperium is a realm defined by paranoia, overreaction, even outright insanity. The Ordo Hereticus is always on the look for the enemy within. The Unforgiven have had a "reputation" for millennia now. It will take some very creative writing to produce a plausible reason as to why the hunters of heretics would cultivate anything approaching a viable, long-term friendship/alliance with a Chapter whose pedigree should set off alarms.

[Frater Cornelius]

Ties to the Ecclesiarchy can take many forms. Remember that there are a whole lot of different variations of cults out there. As long as they have something positive to say about the Emperor and do not interfere with the Imperium it is usually fair play. Maybe that one particular branch is more conservative and thus barely acceptable for the Chapter.

[Magos Valkamar]

Well, I never expected to ignite all this discussion! Although it has made me wonder – who outside the Dark Angels and their successors would know what “Unforgiven” would actually mean? I don't think I've ever seen any character outside of those chapters actually use it in fiction or fluff.

Back on topic. I now think it's actually wrong to call the relationship between my chapter and the Ecclesiarchy an alliance, it's not really that close. I'm not really sure what sort of word to use in all honesty, but I feel there would be a degree of cooperation that the Unforgiven would want to take advantage of.

[GruntAngel]

A cooperation with the Ecclersiarchy could turn around your chapter secretely beleiving the Emperor to be more a God then a man. Or at least that's what you managed to make them believe. The religious nuts would want to challenge that regulary (as much as possible we are still talking about a space marine chapter related to the 1th legion here).

 

For the Inquisition you need to look for the really dirty jobs so you can pull the right favors at the right time. That means being at odd with other chapters at times and being seen as a bad guy while being incredibly skilfull at not attracing the Inquisition attention as to what you actualy want. Possible, but tricky since you'll need to infiltrate one of the most paranoid organisation in the galaxy. Small squads like the deatchwatch might be the core of your fragile cooperation.

[Magos Valkamar]

Brother Jack- as long as fight goes against heretics or xenos I do not think alliance of some sort would be considered unlikely. The only possible trouble would be justifying fight against another Imperium force (IG, Adeptus Mechanicus and such) but even that can be managed- age of a strife, with many various cults and forms of cults might call for confrontations between two forces that are actually both "pure"- just understanding various dogmas in different way. A bit like religious wars among Christians of XVI and XVII th century- from our perspective differences between them were not THAT huge (I mean- meaningful, but not justifying atrocities committed). In fact parallel between Your chapter and- say- knight Templars would not be quite bad. Plus- let us not forget that we are talking about entire planets, with their planetary, "petty" disputes between rulers/ administrators. Those can probably easliy lead to quite conflicts as well

 

You actually read my mind about the Knights Templar, as I wanted to go back to the organization's roots. They were originally founded to protect pilgrims traveling to the holy land during crusade, and I wanted to riff on that by having my chapter's original purpose protecting pilgrims (amongst other things) traveling to the shrine system. I don't want them to be the Ecclesiarchy's attack dogs, just to give the appearance of being more willing to help with their requests.

 

A cooperation with the Ecclersiarchy could turn around your chapter secretely beleiving the Emperor to be more a God then a man. Or at least that's what you managed to make them believe. The religious nuts would want to challenge that regulary (as much as possible we are still talking about a space marine chapter related to the 1th legion here).

 

For the Inquisition you need to look for the really dirty jobs so you can pull the right favors at the right time. That means being at odd with other chapters at times and being seen as a bad guy while being incredibly skilfull at not attracing the Inquisition attention as to what you actualy want. Possible, but tricky since you'll need to infiltrate one of the most paranoid organisation in the galaxy. Small squads like the deatchwatch might be the core of your fragile cooperation.

 

That does give me an idea; that non-Inner Circle marines believe whole heatedly that the Emperor is a god, and perhaps questioning this is actually the first step on the path to joining the Inner Circle? As for the Inquisition, I think I'll drop that, as it does seem a little too risky.

[Harleqvin]

Outside of the DA and their SCs. It's Ragnor Blackmane, The Crimson Slaughter, the Fallen, and at least one Inquisitor ( Can't remember the inquisitors name but he doesn't really care and Blackmane doesn't say anything iirc.)
There might be more. But can't think of them besides those that "suspect something is a amiss and don't normally allow new DA SCs from happening," but I believe that's more to the fear they are legion building in secret.