Berzul Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 So, there are some pretty awesome stuff you can do with a regular command squad. Ideas like giving everyone grav guns, making them relentless, and then drop podding them into the fray, stand out as good tactical power units. I've been planning on these ideas and I find myself wondering about point efficiency and overall cost. This question started when I began planning a command squad that has an Apothecary, and the Chapter Banner, with 4 guys carrying Plasma Pistols and Power Swords. The idea is to have an Interrogator Chaplain with an Auspex and the Eye of the Unseen join the squad, and then give them all a drop pod or a rhino. That would make the unit pretty much unbreakeable, and it would give them 4 plasma shots at short range, with rerolls on the 1s (avoiding gets hot and ensuring wounds), and then a total of 24 attacks with AP3 on the charge, rerrolling all attacks and the 1s on all wounds; without counting the attacks from the Interrogator Chaplain himself. Sounds powerful on paper, but then again, it would still be a 6an squad, with just a T4 and a 3+ armor save, which makes it somewhat fragile, even with feel no pain. This becomes a problem, for a unit that would dispense some good damage, but would die quickly, for over 400 points. You work around it. Take out the powerswords, maybe. 24 attacks at ap - can still pose a threat by sheer number of attacks. Or you could take the plasma pistols, which would make the eye of the unseen like less of a sound investment, saving you a 100 points in total right there. How would you guys manage the cost of the squad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostrael Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 If you opponent knows what he is up against you will lose this unit quite soon. I used it 4 times in a game. First time it worked pretty well. The other times this unit was ripped apart after 1-2 rounds, because my opponent focused his fire on it. So the first question I ask myself: Will it make up the point cost? If you know your opponent has something in this army, this squad can easy kill, go for it (a nasty tank, riptide, a monstrous creature something like that) If you know he has too many shots that he will kill you whether you have an apothecary or not, just leave him home. He can collect the gene-seed later. The relentless banner is good for grav. If you arrive from reserve, you are not allowed to charge. No point in using it for melee, I think... some might disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berzul Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 Of course, any unit can be countered. Specially in a tight gaming group, where your opponents will learn your army farilt quickly. There are many configs for the squad that could prove useful too. What I find myself wondering with this, is the cost of power. How much should the unit be worth, and from what point and onward is it too much. For instance, I could try a "cheap" version of the 4 plasma pistol unit. Just Bolt Pitols and Chainswords. Regular Chaplain without the Eye. That would keep the command squad at, around 260, WITH a Rhino w/Dozer Blades. Still has the ability to dispense 29 attacks on a charge, with rerrolls on To Hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostrael Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Yes, that's the thing about gaming groups. I would not do it that way, because you cannot charge when you disembark from a rhino. I know I would get charged in the next turn by crazy Space Wolfs, mad Blood Angels, Demons of Khorne, drooling Zombies... or simply get shot by Tau. Perhaps it works against Imperial Army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berzul Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 Im planning this unit against Tau, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Raeven Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 Im planning this unit against Tau, actually. That could go wrong real fast. I tried something similar against a Tau player. I got hit from interceptor and during his shootingfase. The few guys that managed to declare an assault got wiped out from overwatch. Overwatch from Tau is real nasty if they have supporting fire and markerlights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 Yup, don't bother with the CC stuff at all, no Apothecary either, keep 'em cheap or the rest of your army will suffer. I use 5x Grav guns with the Relentless Standard in a Droppod, at most I add the 'cheap as you can' Master for Eye re-rolls and to tank AP2/3 hits. Plan to land them somewhere out of interceptor danger, that will invariably be on a flank where your CC is limited due to having infantry speed movement once on the ground. Efficiency and redundancy are better than elite unit overkill these days with Greenwing forces, the dirty Xenos we face all seem better armed than the Emperors Finest, so keep 'em cheap and expendable---Not priceless! Anything too over the top ends up dead before they even get close to working if your opponent is good at target prioritization. 2c bs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 They need a role Sitting in a Command Rhino all game till the end game is a points not well spent and coming out of a Drop pod they need to make an instant impact. The only way you'll get a unit into combat is from an assault vehicle, I'm barley making it with 1 guy left from a Deathwing Knight squad with storm Shields so 5 3+ guys don't have a cat in hell's chance most times even with FNP. Against Tau I wouldn't take them at all but use my points to create multiple target saturation with Obj-Sec units and play the mission chipping away at stuff you can actually kill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve86 Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 A couple of friends that run tau told me kill whatever is bringing markerlights to the table. Also using psyker powers that cause enemies to make snap shots put a real kink in tau shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Yep, Whirlwinds and other markerlight killers are as important as anything when facing Tau. Take away their remove cover ability and you can take the upper hand much more easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Dark Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Havent used a cmd sqd against tau yet, but i used a "cheap" cmd sqd against a daemonkin (khorne) game on sunday. 1000 pointer, where i made a lions blade with the minimum choices, plus a RAS. Cmd sqd were on foot, had a champion, apoth, sacred std, pwr maul and a pwr fist, and bolt pistols. I joined em up with my company master, who had a relic blade. Unit chewed up 3 units of bloodletters, full bs overwatch followed by counter attack is sweet. Lol Btw i won game 10 points to 2. For the Emperor! For the Lion! For the first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L30n1d4s Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Against high threat enemy units, like Tau Riptides/Stormsurges and Eldar Wraithknights, I think you can't go wrong with the following unit lay-down: -Librarian with Prescience -Command Squad with 5 Grav Guns, Banner (for Relentless) -Drop Pod Using a normal CAD you can take two of these "battle groups", giving you redundancy and/or the ability to take out two enemy units on the turn they drop in. With Twin-Linked from Prescience, each of these squads puts out 15 Grav shots, about 13-14 hits, and 8-9 wounds against MCs with a 3+ save (like Wraithknights and Stormsurges) and 11-12 wounds against MCs with a 2+ save (like Riptides and Dreadknights). Alternately, you can use this battle group against high value units, such as Eldar Jetbikes, Ork Meganobz, Necron Lychguard, Sternguard, Thunderwolves, etc. Either way, unless you are facing a pure horde army, like Ork Green Tide or pure Daemons, a unit or two of Grav Gun Command Squads will almost always bring value to your force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Havent used a cmd sqd against tau yet, but i used a "cheap" cmd sqd against a daemonkin (khorne) game on sunday. 1000 pointer, where i made a lions blade with the minimum choices, plus a RAS. Cmd sqd were on foot, had a champion, apoth, sacred std, pwr maul and a pwr fist, and bolt pistols. I joined em up with my company master, who had a relic blade. Unit chewed up 3 units of bloodletters, full bs overwatch followed by counter attack is sweet. Lol Btw i won game 10 points to 2. For the Emperor! For the Lion! For the first! Had a Company Master with articifer armour & shroud of heroes hold up a Paladin squad for 2 full game turns this weekend ended locked in combat at the end of the game, I give him the Mace for the extra attack. Given the fact that he tanked everything and did all the killing he could have been with a scout squad for all it mattered. Had a game a few weeks back where he took out an Ultra Marine Command squad on his own while the couple of tactical left absorbing wounds. The main reason he survived unscathed was the 2+ armour and the inbuilt FNP, beefing him costs +35 giving you an extra attack as well as blind checks, even against Marines there failing 1 in 3 giving you a huge bonus in attacks back. I'm currently building vets / command at the momment but points wise the Company Master comes 1St Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Ciaphas Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Hail! Quick question on Command Squads. It says that any veteran can take a special weapon - and that one veteran can be upgraded to an Apothecary. Can the Apothecary still take - say - a gravgun? Or is he stuck with his reductor-bolt pistol? I am thinking this little squad: Command squad - Apothecary - Standard Bearer (with the relentless banner) - 2 gravguns and I would like to give the Standard Bearer and the Apothecary the two gravguns. With time, I will give the remaining veterans gravguns as well...and ideally they will accompany a librarian with Interromancy in a Razorback with the twin-plasma & lascannon (Forge World) turret... Regards, Master Ciaphas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Dark Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 I don't think Apothecaries can be further upgraded ( I could be wrong), but as he is now an apothecary...he is no longer a veteran? maybe we can get more help on this, but, for me, I modelled my apothecary with a chainsword and the doctor arm thingy (can never remember its name..narcathium....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 The wording is not 100% clear. It see,s that the order you make the upgrade counts, and we don't have official stance on that so you have to check with your gaming group/TO. So if you buy the weapon first and then upgrade, you can have a grav gun apothecary, but if you upgrade first to apothecary, then you can't have a grav gun. We can discuss this to exhaustion and o side will prove the other wrong, so like I said, check with your gaming group/TO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Ciaphas Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Fair enough - I think that it is possible - as it depends on the sequence your perform the upgrades. That said, having a command squad with banner, apothecary and 5 gravguns is expensive anyway you look at it, and probably not a cost-efficient use of points. But it would certainly look cool! Regards, Master Ciaphas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalleron Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Looking at the comm squad entry in the iBook codex it says upgrade one veteran to an apoth. It goes on to say any veteran may take items from the various weapon lists, no limits. So my last codex command squad still has plasma guns, yes guns, and power weapons of varieing types. Even the banner bearer lol. Yes it doesn't make sense and army builder programs don't like it, but it doesn't say I can't. Marines have these things called mag locks. The squad is hideously expensive and will probably never see a table but it looks bad a**. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twopounder Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 I just purchased a metric ton of grav weaponry for my lion's blade. I'm going to have enough for 2 command squads (including the sacred standards). At 200 points each, they're a might expensive. But it's also 15 grav shots. Since I'm building out the full battle company, the free razorbacks provide the medium/light infantry killers. They're also backed up by two 5 man veteran squads with a bolt pistol and grav pistol each (also with razorbacks). The result is a pretty decent mix of weaponry. And while neither squads are exceptional in close combat, the command squads have counter attack (giving them 3 attacks when charged) and the vets get the bonus attack for two close combat weapons. Both have 4 attacks per model on the the charge as well. When combined with full BS grav overwatch, they generally don't worry much about heavy infantry charging them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Fair enough - I think that it is possible - as it depends on the sequence your perform the upgrades. That said, having a command squad with banner, apothecary and 5 gravguns is expensive anyway you look at it, and probably not a cost-efficient use of points. But it would certainly look cool! Regards, Master Ciaphas An argument against, is that there is no 'order of operations' upgrades etc unless specified are done at the same time regardless of how the page is laid out. It posits that only a Vet can have a Special weapon, ergo an Apothecary which has a separate entry line cannot. But yup, it is unclear and you might really need to speak to your opponent first. I personally just don't take the Apothecary, the extra shots in the turn they arrive are more valuable than saving a marine later on. Twopounder, where did you get your grav weapons from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twopounder Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Fair enough - I think that it is possible - as it depends on the sequence your perform the upgrades. That said, having a command squad with banner, apothecary and 5 gravguns is expensive anyway you look at it, and probably not a cost-efficient use of points. But it would certainly look cool! Regards, Master Ciaphas An argument against, is that there is no 'order of operations' upgrades etc unless specified are done at the same time regardless of how the page is laid out. It posits that only a Vet can have a Special weapon, ergo an Apothecary which has a separate entry line cannot. But yup, it is unclear and you might really need to speak to your opponent first. I personally just don't take the Apothecary, the extra shots in the turn they arrive are more valuable than saving a marine later on. Twopounder, where did you get your grav weapons from? *in optimus prime voice* Ebay... Though I'm strongly considering picking up Kromlech's grav-cannons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aura_enchanted Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Yup, don't bother with the CC stuff at all, no Apothecary either, keep 'em cheap or the rest of your army will suffer. I use 5x Grav guns with the Relentless Standard in a Droppod, at most I add the 'cheap as you can' Master for Eye re-rolls and to tank AP2/3 hits. Plan to land them somewhere out of interceptor danger, that will invariably be on a flank where your CC is limited due to having infantry speed movement once on the ground. Efficiency and redundancy are better than elite unit overkill these days with Greenwing forces, the dirty Xenos we face all seem better armed than the Emperors Finest, so keep 'em cheap and expendable---Not priceless! Anything too over the top ends up dead before they even get close to working if your opponent is good at target prioritization. 2c bs well that and CC was dragged out behind the shed and shot this edition and no number of formations with unimpeded charges will change that. cc has become absolutely worthless and investing points into it isnt just wrong its objectively speaking worthless. no cc unit that isnt in a gimmick squad like that has a hope of getting to cc. even the new orks codex supplement wont be enough. being able to waagh every turn means little if mechanically your enitre army will never see that CC. this orks update i feel will blow up in GW's face, they were hoping for it to probably tip the balance again to cc but it wont, it wont unless they close up the pandoras box of superheavies and D weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAngeal Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 As long as you are investing more points into protecting this unit, why not forget the apothecary, run 5 grav guns and a sacred standard, and then run Azrael. If you deepstrike on top of an objective, then you are getting the benefits of an apothecary, and his 4+ invulnerable save. On the offensive side, Ezekiel will buff the squad's close combat stats and bring some interromancy trickery to the table too. I know that Azeke bomb isn't a new idea, but with a command squad with 5 grav guns? I really can't think of better support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twopounder Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 As long as you are investing more points into protecting this unit, why not forget the apothecary, run 5 grav guns and a sacred standard, and then run Azrael. If you deepstrike on top of an objective, then you are getting the benefits of an apothecary, and his 4+ invulnerable save. On the offensive side, Ezekiel will buff the squad's close combat stats and bring some interromancy trickery to the table too. I know that Azeke bomb isn't a new idea, but with a command squad with 5 grav guns? I really can't think of better support. Why not go all in? Az, 5x grav, and a librarius conclave to fill up the rest of the drop pod. Give them all combi-grav and mastery 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalleron Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 That would be fun to run, divination, interromancy and telepathy. You could wreck so much stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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