LR Achilles Alpha or Vanilla Achilles

[God-Potato of Mankind]

Twin linked and master crafted are the same thing though, really.... Twinlinked just over writes MC.

Id go Volkite, but that's me.

Whaaa. So you don't get to reroll your rerolls? Maybe it's less good than I thought

Still good for nuking TEQs though. My Raiders will be full of pyros so I don't lack for anti-infantry firepower either.

On a huge plus, alot of my FLGS games aren't 30k v 30k. So I would be playing regular Guard and SM alot, so no Armoured Ceramite to stop me

edit: can you give Achilles pintle weps? Cos I want to add another multi-melta fo sho

[Slips]

You've never been able to re-roll re-rolls O_o

[Ishagu]

So what's the big fuss about these tanks?

 

Their firepower is meh, I can get more shooting from half the points.

Yes they are tough, but they suck as transports and aren't assault vehicles so their purpose seems defeated.

 

What am I missing, besides quite a nice looking model?

[God-Potato of Mankind]

So what's the big fuss about these tanks?

 

Their firepower is meh, I can get more shooting from half the points.

Yes they are tough, but they suck as transports and aren't assault vehicles so their purpose seems defeated.

 

What am I missing, besides quite a nice looking model?

 

I'm using them as objective holders. In cover, with a Forge Lord and 5 Pyroclasts. It's durability is excellent and they will deter anything attacking mostly.

 

Also they're 50pts more than a Phobos. I get the Phobos can have 6 terminators or 12 marines charging out, but that's all it does. Two TL lascannons and a TL heavy bolter are worse firepower than the quad mortar and volkite/mm sponsons.

 

For 50 pts I get two TL multi-meltas, a Quad Mortar and much better survivability. Seems decent, and I don't want to be assaulting as Salamanders. Otherwise Phobos is more suited as a traidtional LR.

 

You certainly don't want them for a melee orientated Legion like SoH, WE, EC, BA, DA etc. A Legion which loves short-range dakka though (Salamanders!) .. oh yiss.

[Hesh Kadesh]

5 or 10, not 6/12, sorry.

[Ishagu]

I still think there's no point to it.

 

For the price of one of these I can have 5 Quad Mortarts. That's 20 Str 8 Sunder shots, or enough templates to remove a horde in one turn. Not to mention that's 20 T7 wounds to get though that can hide in cover.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

I still think there's no point to it.

 

For the price of one of these I can have 5 Quad Mortarts. That's 20 Str 8 Sunder shots, or enough templates to remove a horde in one turn. Not to mention that's 20 T7 wounds to get though that can hide in cover.

 

True, it doesn't have the flexibility to move though. I am using mine to secure objectives, quad mortars can't do that.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Point well made, but disingenuous to Quad Mortars; you can only (!) take 4, but they aren't Grav, and they still take up elites choices, and although shooting is difficult, they die to CC with ease.

 

Also, they're static, so it LoS is blocked, then there's nothing they can do except fire blind.

[Ishagu]

You could take 5 before the price hike lol, I do apologise.

 

*Edit*

 

The price hike technically hasn't happened yet? Or was it in book 6?

[Slips]

Its in book 6. And its been renamed to Quad Launcher so is a different entity to the Achilles' Quad Mortar now.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

It's a balance I want.

Yes there are things that are shootier, but they aren't as mobile or resilient. One Achilles you can drown in firepower sure, but 2 Achilles AND a Typhon? Know fear, tiny mortals. The Devils from the Dark have come for you.

[Caillum]

I feel that the normal Achilles is better than the Achilles-Alpha. You get multi-meltas instead of volkite culverins, you can add upgrades to it (like another pintle-mounted multi-melta) and you save 25 points.

 

For Salamanders, the MC on the pintle weapon is useful, and you may have Move Through Cover from "Covenant of Fire", so the Alpha's Galvanic Traction Drive is wasted.

 

Love these tanks. :)

[Hesh Kadesh]

Mm are a free alternative, and do not get Shatter shells. So you are stuck with TL MM and Anti infantry blasts.

 

There are apparently enhanced ferromantic rites as well for the Achilles Alpha, but it's an absolute poop shower of an effort, and as usual, they do absolutely nothing different.

[01RTB01]

Mm are a free alternative, and do not get Shatter shells. So you are stuck with TL MM and Anti infantry blasts.

There are apparently enhanced ferromantic rites as well for the Achilles Alpha, but it's an absolute poop shower of an effort, and as usual, they do absolutely nothing different.

Alphas do have shatter shells and ferromantic rites -1 on the damage table.

[Hesh Kadesh]

RE Caillums post above.

[Memento Of Prospero]

This probably does not fix their cost efficiency, but I would love to get them as a dedicated transport for a command squad or any other high profile unit. They aren't worth the heavy slot is the real problem to me.

 

Maybe even as part of the Head of the Gorgon landraider access ;)

[ElectricPaladin]

I'd be more likely to use the regular Achilles - even in Covenant of Fire - for two reasons:

1. An entire land raider squadron is only one Heavy choice, and an achilles-alpha can't squad up with other land raiders. Especially in CoF (but really anywhere, because Heavy is such a great category for the Legions) competition for Heavy slots is fierce.
2. Squadding up with a proteus gives you the possibility of Scouting or Outflanking the entire squad, which is great on a weapon as mobile and durable as a quad mortar glued onto a land raider! This is even more valuable in Covenant of Fire, where you can't Deep Strike!

[God-Potato of Mankind]

 

I'd be more likely to use the regular Achilles - even in Covenant of Fire - for two reasons:

1. An entire land raider squadron is only one Heavy choice, and an achilles-alpha can't squad up with other land raiders. Especially in CoF (but really anywhere, because Heavy is such a great category for the Legions) competition for Heavy slots is fierce.
2. Squadding up with a proteus gives you the possibility of Scouting or Outflanking the entire squad, which is great on a weapon as mobile and durable as a quad mortar glued onto a land raider! This is even more valuable in Covenant of Fire, where you can't Deep Strike!

 

 

Plus you get pintle-mounted multi-melta! Even with AC that's a lot of pain. That said an Achilles with pintle is 295pts so only 5 pts less.

 

Can somebody confirm the transport capacity? Hesh says 5, yet my (admittedly old) rulebook says 6/12?

 

Also only the Achilles Alpha gets the Volkites right?

 

You don't need to worry about Heavy Support slots in CoF though, cos Pyroclasts are non-compulsory troops! Huzzah!

[Caillum]

Don't know what you mean about 6/12, but it's capacity is 6. :)

[Hesh Kadesh]

The Land Raider is a sole purpose unit. It gets units from A to B safely. Safe from all but Archaeotech Weapons like Graviton, or the heaviest of effectively point blank artillery, or Titan Killing Missiles.

 

In fluff, the Land Raider is the crem de la crem. It has a pair of Heavy Bolters, each shooting let's say 600 explosive roubds per second, that each pack the killing power of an XM25 shell. Its Godhammer pattern Lascannons are among the best the Imperium produces, and can just 'freem' through Leman Russ Armour with ease.

 

In game... Not so much. A TL'd Heavy Bolter doesn't have the killing power necessary (a maximum of let's say 18 kills against things like Eldar), while a Machine Spirit Lascannon, despite useful targeting mechanics is still only a pair of shots that has a 1 in 18 chance of blowing up a 75pt Predator.

 

The damage models in the game do not account for the damage that would be done in real life. One of the few things that Age of Sigmar did get 'correct' was that Creatures had reduced profiles for more damage taken, although some of the mechanics could be questioned, the idea was there.

 

As it stands, a Castellax on 1 wound having taken 3 wounds from a Lascannon in reality is possibly suffering targeting malfunctions, possibly lost limbs, etc.

 

Meanwhile, the damage model for vehicles is even further off.

 

Just taking off inconsequential damage until a certain death threshold is reached means that the binary/simplified yes/no nature of the game cannot account for it. Im fluff? It can hold off a Scout Titan. In game, that same Warhound equivalent Logis Engine simply allows it to shoot at a different target than the rest of the tank; something that a person with an IQ in the low twenties could achieve in fluff.

 

In game, this 'rare'/powerful almost 'medium' Super Heavy Equivalent has a role of deploying units into close assault range. Rather than having to progress kilometers of no-mans land, they are traversing 18-24" (when the tank is 7" long), and is a distance that can be covered in a single turn or two.

 

Their shooting is terrible for what they cost. You are paying for their resilience, and for their assault special rule. The resilience is only really of worth if they have something to protect.

 

That cannot be a shooty unit; they have no Firepoints, and paying 200pts-250pts to get a shooty unit in a position to flank invariably means that they are giving up a turn of shooting to do so, plus another if they are not relentless, wasting further points.

 

As an assault unit, their capacity is the same as a Dreadclaw, except the latter is 50-60% cheaper, has 3 Hull Points protected by a 4+ Jink (ie. 6 Hull Points excepting against Ignores Cover of which there is very little Ignores Cover Anti Tank), and can fly, at the expense of a few points of Armour. That, as a flyer it can also arrive first turn is incredible.

 

What this essentially boils down to is spending 100pts on 2 Lascannons and a Heavy Bolter. Whether this design mentality was to make Vehicles rarer, it also exacerbates the problem is that its anti infantry firepower isn't good enough to warrant that increase in cost.

 

So, it is resilient without a purpose, its shooting is desultory, and it provides fast movement to try and get a turn 2 assault, for 250pts minimum. After then, ot serves little purpose. In a large Ultramarines game, when it score thanks to Roboute, it can be good, but that is only a single Objective controlled, and takes up more Heavy Support choices if you did want that; as opposed to say a Leviathan which isn't a squadron, and can cap 3 from one unit.

 

That is the baseline for the Achilles chassis. It becomes a little bit more survivable (-1 damage results, any can pick up Armoured Ceramite), you get a Tank with 2 Multimeltas, and a Quad Mortar.

 

A multimelta is a weaker Lascannon with armoured ceramite knocking about. The Quad Mortar is S5 AP5 Barrage 4 Small Blast Weapon, available as an Elites Choice for 180pts, to get 200% more shots, in exchange for a slight maneuverability issue. In exchange you also drop your capacity by 4, meaning that you are limited to Command Squads, Terminator Command Squads, Destroyer Squads, Veteran Squads, Support Squads, and Heavy Support Squads. Maybe a few other various Legion Specific Squads.

 

So, paying 250-275pts for an anti infantry Quad Mortar and a pair of short range AT guns, combined with a criminally low transport capacity lacking assault vehicle or fire points, it is hard to think of a tactical reason to use it.

 

I like the idea of a Trio of Scouting Land Raiders, but it is still only getting 6 Lascannons/Multimelta into a side arc, for 750pts, and I can't see a vaguely competitive use for them.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

Tactical Reason 1: Salamanders can't deep strike in CoF, so I want a resilient vehicle to deliver Pyroclasts.

Tactical Reason 2: Resilience pairs nicely with invuln from CoF

Tactical Reason 3: Pintle-MM becomes master-crafted

 

It's quite specific, but I still think it works really well as a Salamander Covenant of Fire slot, while being fluffy to boot.

[Hesh Kadesh]

That is fair. However, why not a Rhino? They can take Rhino's, can they not? They have no purpose to assault but can at least shoot without the need to

 

They are non compulsory, IIRC, as well, so you have a lot of points in Tacticals already. You are then spending points on Pyroclasts; 185+275 (achilles gets sunder shells at least, 6 man squad), to get 6 S5 Flamers or a frankly ridiculously poor melta pistol (6" range, S6, doesn't even grant +1 Attack, 3" melta).

 

Unless they have changed, of course, but why not just take more Pyroclasts and less Land Raiders, and being less susceptible to having your opponent just concentrate all his fire on your one Pyro squad?

 

The resilience might pair nicely thematically, but you only get a 5++ Invuln against Meltabombs, as you're already immune to the melta special rule by ferro-Invuln.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

I think they only get Land Raiders, that would be a great idea though.

 

I am plotting to throw in 5 Pyros with an IC designed to buff them. a Forge Lord with rad grenades, or a Libby for various sweet powers.

[nefarious squirrel]

With the above Hesh said regards to a standard LR and a standard Achilles, his very correct espicially regards the equivalent to real weapons and there effective output. But that can be placed in to so many things in 30k, 24" range for a bolter? Real fire fights happen at between 200 to 300 m.

I think main problem here is how would you use and support that vehicle, a Achilles can carry a six man squad that can buff it in regards to extra fire power and assault. Lile a support squad with plasma weapons that coupled with a AV14 block of ceramite on a flank will ruin some ones day!