Dark Angels Successors Discussion

[Harleqvin]

=][= Bryan Blaire: Alright all, I tried my best to split off the Successor lore discussion here, I believe I got as much of it as was possible without duplicating posts too much. Enjoy this discussion! =][=

 

I would be rather reluctant towards that (do not take me wrong- not dismissing idea totally). Please, consider: first and foremost trait of all Unforgiven chapters is fact, that they all remain connected so closely, they are practically a Legion. Add our secretive nature, fact, that chapter of Space Marines accepts orders only from chapter Masters (and they, in turn, from highest ranking officials of Imperium). Actually I am not quite sure if even Inquisitor can simply issue an order- I recall an short story from 4th edition SM Codex, where Inquisitor pressed for help, asked for assistance.

An idea- maybe if a shrine of Lion would've been involved things would be different? I mean: world once liberated (?) by Lion, with shrine dedicated to him and with contingent of Unforgiven as honorary guard in fortress- monastery outpost ? That might justify co- existence quite well. Just an idea.

Not all DA successors are Unforgiven, but my chapter could still be a part of the Unforgiven all right – it's only the members of the Inner Circle that would know this. There are other ways of keeping contact without arousing suspicion, such as secret signs left on a certain world or maybe even a hidden communication station, for example. They wouldn't really take orders from the Ecclesiarchy or the Inquisition either, they would just be more open to requests from those groups. Somebody trying to order them around would probably be diplomatically brushed off.

I do like your idea about the system having been liberated by the Lion though, it would give a good reason for the chapter to have been founded with DA geneseed.

What DA Successor Chapters are not part of The Unforgiven?

[Myrkul]

What DA Successor Chapters are not part of The Unforgiven?

There is a chapter that is aware of Luthurs betrail, but does not count themselves as unforgiven, they feel that they have redeemed themselves in the eyes of the emperorer (ill have to look later for the name, they wear all black PA, iirc).

 

Also the high lords often set up new foundings of chapters from various gene seeds, not all of them are told or supplied by the parent chapter. DA having one of the more stable gene seeds are used (on occasion). Im sure there are plenty that can trace roots.

[Magos Valkamar]

What DA Successor Chapters are not part of The Unforgiven?

 

To be honest, now that you come to mention it, I can't think of any...

[Frater Cornelius]

 

What DA Successor Chapters are not part of The Unforgiven?

To be honest, now that you come to mention it, I can't think of any...

Isn't that kind of their quirk? If you are DA, then you are part of the whole Unforgiven business. One of the DA successors, the name escapes me right now, have a slightly different approach. They believe that the sins of the past are not their sins and that those who remained loyal are already redeemed. But even they help hunting down the Fallen when asked.

 

If there ever was a Chapter that refused, we certainly will not be hearing anything about them anymore. DA have a talent to make certain things vanish mysteriously ;)

[rendingon1+]

@Myrkul You mean Angels of Absolution. They are Unforgiven.

 

Primarchs are venerated by ecclesiarchy - they were Emperor's sons alter all. Including Lion.

[Bryan Blaire]

There are Chapters that are rumored to have Dark Angel gene-seed, but generally either the Chapter claims it while the Dark Angels/Unforgiven deny it, or both sides deny it. Obviously if any of that is true, those Chapters are not Unforgiven. Whether it is or isn't true seems to be left to your imagination.

[Myrkul]

@Myrkul You mean Angels of Absolution. They are Unforgiven.

 

Primarchs are venerated by ecclesiarchy - they wear Emperor's sons alter all. Including Lion.

Yeah, and i read through the codex again, they "consider their guilt expunged," and "feel no spiritual damnation fir the actions of the fallen." But then they say they still pirsue the fallen for the same way as other chapters.

[Harleqvin]

What DA Successor Chapters are not part of The Unforgiven?

To be honest, now that you come to mention it, I can't think of any...

Isn't that kind of their quirk? If you are DA, then you are part of the whole Unforgiven business. One of the DA successors, the name escapes me right now, have a slightly different approach. They believe that the sins of the past are not their sins and that those who remained loyal are already redeemed. But even they help hunting down the Fallen when asked.

If there ever was a Chapter that refused, we certainly will not be hearing anything about them anymore. DA have a talent to make certain things vanish mysteriously

Yep.

@Myrkul You mean Angels of Absolution. They are Unforgiven.

Primarchs are venerated by ecclesiarchy - they wear Emperor's sons alter all. Including Lion.

Correct.

There are Chapters that are rumored to have Dark Angel gene-seed, but generally either the Chapter claims it while the Dark Angels/Unforgiven deny it, or both sides deny it. Obviously if any of that is true, those Chapters are not Unforgiven. Whether it is or isn't true seems to be left to your imagination.

According to Fluff/Lore, All DA successors are a part of the Unforgiven. What chapters claim DA geneseed that the DA go "No they aren't with us"?

Even the Angels of Vigilance that helped in Armageddon third war don't say they are. The Chapter doesn't believe it, just that there are those in the Imperium that believe the Chapter is because of their look.

Star Phantoms don't say they are, they don't say who their progenitor chapter is. Some in the Imperium believe they are DA successor, the SP think it's a rude thing to even ask who their parent chapter is, and DA vehemently say that they aren't when those in the Imperium say they are.

I can't think of any Successor Chapter that tries to say the DA is their Parent Chapter, that either the DA says they aren't, or that the DA says they are but aren't a part of the Unforgiven.

[Bryan Blaire]

You're probably right, Harleqvin, I was probably thinking of "those in the Imperium", rather than the Chapter itself. Doesn't really change the fact that it could happen. At least one Chapter in the lore claimed to be one gene line while actually being another... It would make for an interesting story.

[Harleqvin]

Yeah. I think it would be neat if they do make a lore/fluff based SC that isn't with the Unforgiven, or that the SC is saying they are of DA geneseed knowing they are from another Progenitor Chapter/vice versa.
I was just going by lore. I don't recall any, and that all of the lore/fluff goes to saying that all DA successors are part of the Unforgiven.
So, it is pretty hard to try to make it work with the fluff/lore that there is an SC that isn't part of the Unforgiven, let alone working with the Inq, Ecl, or High Lords somehow with getting info about Cypher/Fallen and letting them live when it has been shown in the stories that they will kill a guy that has kept the secret for decades and then only told a single DA just for that DA to kill him after the info was told to him.

[Bryan Blaire]

It's not really that hard at all. A DA Successor that has no knowledge of the Fallen would have nothing remarkable about it. You likely would never even know they we Dark Angels gene line if they had no connection to the Unforgiven, they would be indistinguishable from an Ultramarine successor.

 

That's actually exactly what happened to the Carmine Blades... the real trick for a hidden DA Successor like that would be writing a convincing story about why someone found out and what happens afterward (after all, there's no real outward distinction for the sons of the Lion like there is behavioral weirdness with BA Successors). After all, it isn't like Successors automatically come with a "Who's Your Daddy" ID tag, or the Cursed Founding likely couldn't have happened. Look at all the unknown gene line Chapters, for whatever reason. It's not hard to believe that the High Lords might experiment with the Lion's gene-line, or even seed Foundings with them without saying so, if for no other reason than they can. Maybe some of those 3/5ths of all Chapters are Ultramarines actually contain a larger portion of "hidden" DA Successors.

 

Maybe the Chapter manages to unlock a gene-print sealed vault, something hidden by the Lion himself, etc. What makes it uninteresting is if everyone starts to do it in similar fashion. It would take some creativity, but it could be done.

[Harleqvin]

 

According to Fluff/Lore, All DA successors are a part of the Unforgiven. What chapters claim DA geneseed that the DA go "No they aren't with us"?

Even the Angels of Vigilance that helped in Armageddon third war don't say they are. The Chapter doesn't believe it, just that there are those in the Imperium that believe the Chapter is because of their look.

I don't know that the lore specifically states that all Dark Angels Successors are Unforgiven. It's obviously heavily implied that this is the case, but I doubt the writers would ever include something as absolute as that.

 

That aside, the only sources of lore I've ever seen for the Angels of Vigilance are the Armageddon and Codex: Eye of Terror material... Maybe I'm misunderstanding your stance, but nowhere is it stated that the Angels of Vigilance themselves don't believe they are descended from the Dark Angels. Everything about their background is stated from an outside perspective.

 

To the original poster:

 

Ties to the Ecclesiarchy are tricky. On the one hand, the newer background indicates (if I remember correctly) that the Dark Angels actually fought on the side of the Ecclesiarchy during the civil war fought in M36. And, yeah, there are superficial traits that would link the two factions together (a monastic knight look, etc.). On the other hand, the Unforgiven as a whole are, by definition, a conservative faction who maintain ethos and traditions dating back to M31. It would be very hard, I think for something like the Cult of the God-Emperor to supplant their beliefs. Is there room for something like this to happen? Sure. The Unforgiven being how they are, though, I imagine this would strain relations with their cousin-Chapters. After all, they're associating with outsiders on the basis of principles that don't have anything to do with the Hunt for the Fallen. Priorities!

 

Ties to the Ordo Hereticus, on the other hand? Dangerous. Very dangerous. Never forget that the Imperium is a realm defined by paranoia, overreaction, even outright insanity. The Ordo Hereticus is always on the look for the enemy within. The Unforgiven have had a "reputation" for millennia now. It will take some very creative writing to produce a plausible reason as to why the hunters of heretics would cultivate anything approaching a viable, long-term friendship/alliance with a Chapter whose pedigree should set off alarms.

 

There isn't anything stating they believe they are. The only thing that is said about them is that it is suspected because of their look.

So no, Until they say they believe they are, They don't believe they are. (edit - Or more to the point that because they have not said they believe they are, They are not a chapter that believes they are. Which goes to what i have said. There isn't any Successor Chapter that tries to say the DA is their Parent Chapter, that either the DA says they aren't, or that the DA says they are but aren't a part of the Unforgiven. According to the Fluff/Lore)

 

Also it states in the codices that all DA successors are part of the unforgiven. So yeah. They have made that absolute.

[Bryan Blaire]

Meh, the Codexes are also often boring and have been overturned/overwritten by GW. If there's a better story to be had, make it, as long as it is interesting and internally consistent, there's no reason anyone should have a beef over it. If people don't like other people's work, it needs to be posted constructively or moved past.

 

Besides, if Codexes are absolute, then the Dark Angels revere Robot Guilliman as their spiritual liege. ;)

[Harleqvin]

Well, If its fluff/lore in the codex, it's current lore/fluff.
Where does it say in the codex they revere Roboute as their spiritual liege? Asking as I might have missed something, but it looked like in the codex it said They didn't want to risk drawing undue attention, so they did the Codex* Astartes stuff, made SC's, so it appeared they followed Guilliman's dictates to the letter.

Also yeah, nothing wrong with making stuff up. But if one tries to abide by the official lore/fluff, there are certain things that don't fly. Like a DA SC that isn't part of the Unforgiven. That doesn't work well abiding by the fluff.
If you want to ignore the official fluff, and make up your own version of the Fluff where it works, more power to you.
But it gets really hard, if impossible, trying to do certain things because of the established fluff/lore for DA. Just say it's your own version of the fluff where it happens for whatever reason.

Which is why I say if you are trying to abide by the fluff it gets really hard trying to stray from the Unforgiven and such.

 

 

Edited content with *

[Bryan Blaire]

Says it right in the Space Marine Codex (the one everyone calls the Ward 'Dex, I believe). If you take one Codex as absolute, then they all have to be. You can't cherry pick the fluff you want to be absolute, even if they contradict each other, because a Codex is absolute.

 

That's the beauty of having loose canon, nothing is ever absolute, not even a current Codex. Right inside the rules on the game itself it tells each player that it is part of the game to add their creativity to it. The fluff is as much part of the game as anything. You don't have to conform to the printed 'Dex's fluff (or even rules, if the folks playing don't want to) and it doesn't make you right or wrong to make that choice. This isn't the old Star Wars with it's multiple layers of canon. It isn't even the new Star Wars, with the divide between current material and the Legends moniker. This is 40K, where bolters work five different ways, where there isn't agreement on what makes armor Mk5, where the timelines of events are confused and moved from edition to edition, and where stories are made from real happenings to apocryphal tales with the publication of a new Codex (and if you are an absolutist that liked Two-Heads Talking... Sorry, that's a legend that probably didn't really happen, or if it did, is different from how it was recounted - per the new 'Dex).

[Radoslav]

Well- that's all sweet and wonderful, but as with everything- there are some boundaries.  We are all creating this universe- its story basically and yes- because of that collaboration it is a bit like a picture made with a dirty camera- a bit fuzzy on edges. It has solid core or backbone we have all kinda accepted or agreed upon (with bigger or smaller frown... at times)... and further we move away from that, the blurrier, less defined it becomes. Problem is how blurry we want to allow it to be.  If one will stray too far away from "canon" (whatever it is at the moment- I've seen more then few changes, playing from 2nd edition up)- say: painting your DA pink with a large unicorn on chest and insisting on fact that they are of Horus gene seed but somehow remain loyal and still belong to Unforgiven- one will surely have fun (especially watching sheer horror on faces of  opponents of fellow DA players) and nobody will have right to tell you you can not do it, but... well...you will cross boundaries of Grimdark a bit too far IMHO

[Bryan Blaire]

The only thing with that is, Radoslav, "we" don't get to decide how far to slide from "canon" (of which there is very little bound - see ADB's post on his own musings on the concept of "loose canon" for 40K). You and those you play with/care about working with get to define how far to slide from "canon", it's not every denizen of the Internet or even this forum's collaborative choice unless the creator makes it so. It's a mistake for anyone here to think that any member of this forum need approve of what you do with your own stories. Even if someone crosses the boundaries of Grimdark, so what? You have the right to speak your piece about it in a constructive manner, but that's it. If the creator ignores you, they are not wrong, except maybe in your mind. Again, so what?

 

The easiest way to prove beyond a doubt that we denizens of the B&C do not dwell in a single collaborative universe is the plethora of II and XI Legion creations in our own forum. Clearly more than one of them each could not have existed at once in a collaborative universe, so they must not all dwell in a single collaborative space. Considering how many believe that making a 2nd or 11th Legion story is an anathema to 40K, there also are some who disagree that any of those Legions created ever existed.

 

Nothing that was posed by Jack of the Pelt comes close to "violating" any of the foundations of the mythos, and even if he did, conformity to norms is hardly a measurement of creative story-telling, especially if the story deals with the bounds of those norms in innovative ways.

[Harleqvin]

Says it right in the Space Marine Codex (the one everyone calls the Ward 'Dex, I believe). If you take one Codex as absolute, then they all have to be. You can't cherry pick the fluff you want to be absolute, even if they contradict each other, because a Codex is absolute.

 

That's the beauty of having loose canon, nothing is ever absolute, not even a current Codex. Right inside the rules on the game itself it tells each player that it is part of the game to add their creativity to it. The fluff is as much part of the game as anything. You don't have to conform to the printed 'Dex's fluff (or even rules, if the folks playing don't want to) and it doesn't make you right or wrong to make that choice. This isn't the old Star Wars with it's multiple layers of canon. It isn't even the new Star Wars, with the divide between current material and the Legends moniker. This is 40K, where bolters work five different ways, where there isn't agreement on what makes armor Mk5, where the timelines of events are confused and moved from edition to edition, and where stories are made from real happenings to apocryphal tales with the publication of a new Codex (and if you are an absolutist that liked Two-Heads Talking... Sorry, that's a legend that probably didn't really happen, or if it did, is different from how it was recounted - per the new 'Dex).

So, the Space Marine Codex says that. And we know that the DA codex says they went along with it so they didn't raise suspicion. That means the DA don't revere Roboute as their supreme liege.

So those two go together. Fluff still works.

 

There are differences between stories they tell within the lore and the elements they give that is lore. So yeah, Two heads talking Deathwing bone white armor and all those other stories told in the lore probably didn't happen/happen the way they tell it. Those are supposed to be stories in the world being told to instill the whole Fall of DA on Caliban.

They have been over the past couple years tying things together a bit more cohesively. There are still some leeway, but there is still established canon and they are cementing it more and more with the HH books from BL coming out along with other books from BL.

If you want to just do whatever, cool. But if you want to try to abide by current fluff/lore, it gets hard trying to go against it.

[Isiah]

Which is exactly why one should do so. Huzzah for creativity

[Radoslav]

Brother Isaiah- I think we are kinda "missing" each other arguments. I am not saying being inventive is bad (even if it crosses boundaries). Far from that. Anyone has right to make his own story, his own game as it fits him. That's one point. Totally valid and beyond discussion. One has right to do whatever one wants. Personal expression and what not.

 

Totally other point is "what fans of WH40 consider "canonical" and how to fit your personal narrative story into it"- not because you HAVE TO, but because you WANT TO. You do not have to conform to lore, but it you want- remember about this, this and that. Simple as that. Without being rectal about adhering to lore (let me repeat it once again- I do not consider it mandatory by any means)- just for fun. And just for fun- and in spirit of having fun together- we are asking each other here about said lore and quarreling about it.

 

Having said that- end of side track discussion on my side. Grabbing my popcorn and waiting for OP to continue with his story, whichever way he will choose it to go.

[rendingon1+]

Says it right in the Space Marine Codex (the one everyone calls the Ward 'Dex, I believe). If you take one Codex as absolute, then they all have to be. You can't cherry pick the fluff you want to be absolute, even if they contradict each other, because a Codex is absolute.

Can you give me a quote?

[Bryan Blaire]

Can you give me a quote?:P

Do you have the Codex? :p

 

Does it really matter? :p

 

No Dark Angels player/follower is actually going to agree with the ridiculous statement that was made in that Dex, but if one Codex must be absolute, then by that logic, all Codexes must be absolute. :p

 

If you really want it, I'll have to dig it out, I don't carry the book around with me for reference, it's in the 5th Edition Codex. :p

 

If one really wanted to be a pedant, one could point out that from the 2nd Edition Angels of Death Codex through the 7th Edition Codex, you will never find a quote that states "all Successors of the Dark Angels are included in the Unforgiven", you actually won't find the word "all" used except where it states that "all Unforgiven Chapters use the same structure as the Dark Angels". The implication is that "the Successors" is "all", but the word is actually not used, and if you wanted to be a true literalist, rather than an interpreter of the lore, you'd have to have a quote that backs up the use of "all Successors". Luckily that isn't necessary and each can interpret that lore as they see fit. ;)

[Isiah]

Brother Isaiah- I think we are kinda "missing" each other arguments. I am not saying being inventive is bad (even if it crosses boundaries). Far from that. Anyone has right to make his own story, his own game as it fits him. That's one point. Totally valid and beyond discussion. One has right to do whatever one wants. Personal expression and what not.

 

Ok, apologies if I did :)

 

Frankly I was getting bored with the whole circular nature of the argument that this topic has slumped into and was hoping to close it out. But I'll duck of it and allow those who want to slug it out continue :yes:

 

Cheers

I

[Harleqvin]

@Bryan  It does say that "Their successors, who would be collectively known as The Unforgiven" doesn't say that some of their successors. It says "their successors" which would indicate all.

That's the last thing I will say on this, Brother Isiah. I know I am one of those responsible for the spiral. My apologies on that. Also, what Radoslav said is basically what I have been saying, and others just keep saying that canon doesn't matter even if you follow canon (trying to state so with means that actually don't even make sense because how they connect, like the above SM codex saying whatever and then me pushing that away with the stated from the DA codex which makes them both work, or with some other response,) though they have been making it more cohesive the last several years and all. 

It just comes down one more time to that no matter how much you can show what's in the current lore (codices and BL books,) there will be someone who goes "nuh-uh" like you have said to me in another post. At least I think it was you, Isiah. lqtm

I also want to see what the OP works up for his chapter.

[Phoebus]

There isn't anything stating they believe they are. The only thing that is said about them is that it is suspected because of their look.

So no, Until they say they believe they are, They don't believe they are. (edit - Or more to the point that because they have not said they believe they are, They are not a chapter that believes they are. Which goes to what i have said. There isn't any Successor Chapter that tries to say the DA is their Parent Chapter, that either the DA says they aren't, or that the DA says they are but aren't a part of the Unforgiven. According to the Fluff/Lore)

You're not giving an entirely accurate summary, and are kind of missing the point, friend.

 

All of the lore focused on the Angels of Vigilance is from an outside perspective. They can't tell you what they believe they are because at no point does the lore say, "The Angels of Vigilance believe X, Y, or Z."

 

Nor is it just a case of "the monastic nature" and "unflinching devotion to duty of the Space Marines within the Chapter's ranks" that leads readers in the real world and agencies of the Imperium alike to consider these Angels to be Unforgiven. The links between their homeworld to the Dark Angels Legion can't be ignored.