Dark Angels Successors Discussion

[Radoslav]

Brother Jack- as long as fight goes against heretics or xenos I do not think alliance of some sort would be considered unlikely. The only possible trouble would be justifying fight against another Imperium force (IG, Adeptus Mechanicus and such) but even that can be managed- age of a strife, with many various cults and forms of cults might call for confrontations between two forces that are actually both "pure"- just understanding various dogmas in different way. A bit like religious wars among Christians of XVI and XVII th century- from our perspective differences between them were not THAT huge (I mean- meaningful, but not justifying atrocities committed). In fact parallel between Your chapter and- say- knight Templars would not be quite bad. Plus- let us not forget that we are talking about entire planets, with their planetary, "petty" disputes between rulers/ administrators. Those can probably easliy lead to quite conflicts as well

If one really wanted to be a pedant, one could point out that from the 2nd Edition Angels of Death Codex through the 7th Edition Codex, you will never find a quote that states "all Successors of the Dark Angels are included in the Unforgiven", you actually won't find the word "all" used except where it states that "all Unforgiven Chapters use the same structure as the Dark Angels". The implication is that "the Successors" is "all", but the word is actually not used, and if you wanted to be a true literalist, rather than an interpreter of the lore, you'd have to have a quote that backs up the use of "all Successors". Luckily that isn't necessary and each can interpret that lore as they see fit.

From 4th ed. I believe:

" Dark Angels gene-seed has since been used to create other 'Successor' Chapters, most famously the Angels of Vengeance, Absolution and Redemption. Along with the Dark Angels themselves, these Chapters are collectively known as the Unforgiven. Most of the Unforgiven follow the same organizational structures as the Dark Angels themselves (including having their own Inner Circles) and all share the same great mission of finding and eradicating every lat one of the Fallen"

so if we will consider above biding (as mentioned before- we do not have to)- not all Unforgiven have inner circles (just "most" of them) but ALL of them hunt for the Fallen.

[Bryan Blaire]

Well, I never expected to ignite all this discussion! Although it has made me wonder – who outside the Dark Angels and their successors would know what “Unforgiven” would actually mean? I don't think I've ever seen any character outside of those chapters actually use it in fiction or fluff.

[Bryan Blaire]

The interesting and ever changing text on the Unforgiven (all bolded emphasis below are mine):

The three Space Marine Chapters shown here and the Dark Angels Chapter comprised the original Dark Angels Legion before the Second Founding, as described elsewhere in this book. Collectively the four Chapters are known as the Unforgiven. The Angels of Absolution, the Angels of Vengeance and the Angels of Redemption share the ancient secret of the Dark Angels and that Chapter's mission to reclaim its honour and eradicate the terrible shame of their part in the history.

 

The three Chapters follow the Dark Angels' pattern of organization closely and each has its own Inner Circle. They all have formations which are similar to the Deathwing and Ravenwing companies although they are not named as such. The Chapters of the Unforgiven coordinate their activities in regard of their secret mission and it is not unknown for the Supreme Grand Masters of the four Chapters to hold summit meetings on the Rock. Indeed, the various Grand Masters of the Unforgiven are frequent visitors to the Dark Angels fortress-monastery.

So originally, only four Chapters in the Unforgiven, and each had an Inner Circle and all have Deathwing and Ravenwing (named otherwise).

 

The Dark Angels Legion was the first and greatest of the original Space Marine Legions. Over time, like all the other original Legions, it was broken up to form much smaller Space Marine Chapters, becoming the Dark Angels Chapter known today.

 

Dark Angels gene-seed has been used to create other 'Successor' Chapters, most famously the Angels of Vengeance, Absolution and Redemption. Along with the Dark Angels themselves, these Chapters are collectively known as the Unforgiven. Most of the Unforgiven follow the same organisational structures as the Dark Angels themselves, (including having their own Inner Circles) and all share the same great mission of finding and eradicating every last one of the Fallen.

So already the first changes:

DA gene-seed was used to create Successors, naming three famous Chapters. It is then slightly vague on whether the "these Chapters" refers to all Successors, or only the named ''most famous" ones - which were the only Unforgiven named in the previous Codex, although the implication is that it should be all of the Successors (it doesn't actually say that specifically though - stupid sentence construction).

 

Also, now only most of the Unforgiven follow the DA structure, seeming to mean that there are Unforgiven out there that don't have Inner Circles (how do these ones work?).

 

When the Space Marine Legions were split into Chapters after the Horus Heresy, it is written in the few surviving histories that the Dark Angels Legion sired at least three new Chapters. These are the Angels of Absolution, the Angels of Vengeance and the Angels of Redemption, but more of these so-called 'Successors' are said to exist. Certainly, more were created than are recorded, and all of these Chapters are extant to this day. These Chapters collectively call themselves the Unforgiven, and they pursue their own, shadowy agenda, forever seeking to absolve themselves of the Dark Angels' ancient sin.

 

Each of the Unforgiven Chapters follows the Dark Angels' pattern of organisation closely, and each has its own Inner Circle. They all have formations which are similar to the Deathwing and Ravenwing Companies, although they are not named as such. Some of these Chapters use special uniforms and markings for these units, while others do not.

 

The Chapters of the Unforgiven coordinate their actions in regards to their secret mission and it is not unknown for the Supreme Grand Masters of the Chapters to hold summit meetings on the Rock.[/b][/b]

The Dark Angels and their Second Founding successors refer to themselves as the Unforgiven.

So now we have it acknowledged that there were more Second Foundings than just the three named and all still exist to the current time frame. Also, all these Chapters (Second Foundings) call themselves the Unforgiven.

 

And once again, all the Unforgiven Chapters have the same style of organization, with DW and RW analogs, along with an Inner Circle.

 

There is no notation on this page of any Chapters created after the Second Founding, and are the only ones specifically noted as having to be Unforgiven, though clearly there were, based on the text of the Disciples of Caliban (there is not a noted Founding time frame for the Guardians of the Covenant or Consecrators in their individual texts), and the DoCs are indicated to be a member Chapter of the Unforgiven. The Consecrators aren't noted in records until the 40th Millennium though.

 

From this, we know that Successors were created after the Second Founding, and the one we have specifically named is Unforgiven, but otherwise only Second Foundings explicitly must be Unforgiven by this text.

 

When the Space Marine Legions split into Chapters after the Horus Heresy, the Dark Angels Legion sired at least three new Chapters, but more are rumored to exist. Although frequently passed over in subsequent Space Marine foundings, the Dark Angels have periodically been requested to give gene-seed to found new Chapters.

 

The Dark Angels Successor Chapters collectively call themselves the Unforgiven, for their own Inner Circles are aware of the ancient Legion's history, and they too seek to absolve themselves of the ancient failure. Each of the Unforgiven Chapters follows the Dark Angels' pattern of organisation, including their own corresponding levels of trust. Most have formations similar to the Deathwing and Ravenwing companies, although they are not named as such.

 

The Unforgiven coordinate their actions, and it is not unknown for the Supreme Grand Masters of all the Chapters to gather for summit meetings on the Rock. Although duty-bound to run their formations independently, it is strongly suspected by some within the Imperium that the Dark Angels' Successor Chapters show too much deference to the Supreme Grand Master of their originating Chapter. It is, at least partially, this rumor of 'Legion-building' that often persuades the High Lords of Terra to overlook the Dark Angels' gene-seed when seeking to create further Foundings.

Here, we see another shift, this time it is noted that the Successors collectively call themselves the Unforgiven, and all have Inner Circles and specific levels of trust. However, now not all the Successors actually have Deathwing and Ravenwing analogs.

 

Finally,

Amid the ashes of the Horus Heresy, distrust and accusation thickened the air. Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines, initiated the Second Founding and, across the galaxy, the Space Marine Legions fragmented into the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes. Each of the original Legions spawned a First Founding Chapter that retained its name and identity, along with successor Chapters responsible for becoming their own, entirely autonomous entities. The Dark Angels could hardly resist this motion, for the cataclysmic destruction of Caliban was fresh in their minds, and they could not risk drawing undue attention to themselves. Thus they created several successor Chapters, and so it appeared that they followed Guilliman's dictates to the letter.

 

As with their every deed since the fall of Caliban, however, the Dark Angels were following a hidden agenda. Their successors, who would collectively become known as the Unforgiven, formed their own Inner Circles to guard the knowledge of the Dark Angels' secret shame. Each one established companies concurrent with the Deathwing and Ravenwing, though named differently to maintain at least the veneer of individuality. Finally, though the Unforgiven claimed their own Chapter home worlds, heraldry and doctrines, their leaders attended clandestine meetings on the Rock with the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels. These ritual-laden gatherings saw the Unforgiven take their orders from the master of the Dark Angels, so that the ongoing hunt for the Fallen could continue in utmost secrecy. The Lion's sons could not risk these meetings becoming common knowledge. Yet rumors persist of nepotism and legion building. Over time these have led to the Unforgiven being regarded with distrust.

 

Despite their impeccably pure gene-seed, the Dark Angels have been passed over for many of the Founding that have created fresh Chapters to fight the Imperium's wars. Yet from time to time the Adeptus Terra have been forced to permit the Dark Angels another Founding, the records of which have mysterious vanished shortly afterward. In this way, an uncertain number of Unforgiven Chapters have been created, each giving every outward appearance of fighting their own wars for the Imperium, while secretly aiding in the Dark Angels' hidden hunt.

So once again, Dark Angels successors are collectively called Unforgiven, and now, all have Inner Circles and Deathwing and Ravenwing analogs.

 

What everyone wants to make with these changing lore points is up to each! Have fun and see where your ideas fit in!

[Wulf Vengis]

A chapter could feasibly not know that they were DA descendants, until the Inner Circle showed up to tell them.

The chapter master, librarians and chaplains are whisked away by darkly cloaked mysterious intruders. Spirited away in the night from numerous battlefields and locations across the Imperium at the same moment in realspace. Only to be simultaneously returned to their respective companies/deployments days or weeks later. Though now seeming somehow different, a dark brooding overcome them.

 

They call their chapter back to it's homeworld to "resupply" and while there the leaders take to holding private council. New combat disciplines are put into practice and units within the first company and other elites are segregated out and further specialize. A few brothers here and there have gone missing but no one seems too interested.

 

Now there's a story full of intrigue/secrets/subterfuge and grim-dark bad---ery that I'd read.

[Isiah]

That's a great summarisation brother Bryan Blaire. And just goes to prove how things change over the editions and that there are many ways to bake a cake :).

 

Who knows, in the next edition it all might be retconned into an 'apocryphal tale told to new recruits and Scouts', in the same way that the Deathwing Two Heads Talking story was ;)

 

Oy vey!

[Harleqvin]

Because this has been made into a thread and no longer spiraling away from that Topic thread it once was from.

@Pheobus: Actually, What I say isn't misleading. Till GW outright says somewhere that the Angels of Vigilance are from DA gene-seed, or They are DA SCs, or that the Angels of Vigilance believe they are successors of DA, They are not from DA gene-seed, nor believe they are from DA.

You can't say, with current fluff/lore, because they are from a world that the DA did something at that they are definitely from DA gene-seed stock. There isn't enough context with that link of they are from a world that the DA had a heavy battle at.

You can suspect/think they are. but by current Lore/Fluff they are not till GW says otherwise.

And also a lot of the rest of the above postings, goes to show that what is currently Lore/Fluff says what I have been saying about all the DA successors are Unforgiven and such.

 

 

Each new addition is an altering of what we know. Which also means that in a future edition they could change that all the DA successors are a part of the Unforgiven. It's just that currently it's like I was saying. Like before the 6th & 7th ed codex, Lion was wounded and being held by the WitD. Now he is held by the WitD but is completely healed waiting for the time he is needed.
But anyone can choose to alter the Fluff/Lore to allow their chapter or history (but that wouldn't be current fluff/Lore.) However, if you want to try to abide by the Fluff/Lore, it gets really hard to not have them be a part of the Unforgiven and such.

[Bryan Blaire]

And the lore itself is plenty wandering, allowing many little cracks where you can do all kinds of fun stuff.

 

Something I wrote up previously when people were trying to shout "Wrong" about a point of lore:

Here's the real question I have for everyone that is trying to debate it: why do you care about what a bunch of us that don't play in your gaming circle think about how you view Techmarine training, the AdMech, or anything else? If someone wants to have their TechMarine fully trained on Mars, partially trained on Mars and partially somewhere else, tested on Mars and trained somewhere else, or never even setting foot on Mars, it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever to me, my enjoyment of the hobby, or my understanding of the fluff. It's simply a different interpretation and/or view, which is 100% allowed to exist. Even GW encourages you to add your own thoughts to the game and setting in the rulebook:

 

What's more, Warhammer 40,000 calls on a lot from you, the player. Your responsibility isn't just to follow the rules, it's also to add your own ideas, drama and creativity to the game. Much of the appeal of this game lies in the freedom and openendness that this allows; it is in this spirit that the rules have been written.

So choose your own creative path, and if there are naysayers, the doubters and those that tell you "You are wrong for your ideas", refer them to this passage and tell them "I am doing exactly what GW says my responsibility is for this game. You are wrong for trying to say otherwise." and then ignore them like they deserve. ;)

 

If it is fun for you, do it. If you don't like what someone else has done, there is no reason to fret, and you don't even have to discuss it with them unless you have to play with them (for some reason) or just really feel the need to express yourself. And if you are in the latter group, then on the B&C, we will continue doing it in a gracious manner, as we all have so far.

 

But in the end, we must all decide for ourselves how we want to play, view, and "hobby" this world of gaming we share. And sharing can mean just as much mutual but amicable disagreeing on a topic as it does coming to a mutual understanding of something. You aren't required to conform to new fluff, old fluff or fan fluff, you aren't required to do anything but enjoy yourself (and follow the board rules while you are on the B&C).

It's just as true here. If someone feels right only following to the letter the most recent stuff, that's great that it works for them. If others think that a previous point of lore in a Codex is more appropriate for their story, well, it's still official content, Games Workshop has never said things are invalid.

[Harleqvin]

That's why I usually say if following/trying to work with the fluff.
You can use older fluff. But there is a difference between current and older fluff. They have been furthering the Lore making older stuff obsolete.

 

Even though they have said that currently in the rulebook, and even more so in the past. They have been making the 40k world a lot more cohesive/structured than what it used to be.
They used to say they would never do the Horus Heresy in detail, that they would never make Primarch models. All because at the time they were trying to make it super loose so people could do whateverthey wanted/they (gw) didn't get stuck in a corner on something. But they are now doing an established Horus Heresy background, they are making Primarch models, and they have been further establishing a cohesive lore for 40k. Mainly because I think they realize people want more established lore, but they do still leave some space for people to do what they want for the most part.

There are those who try to abide by the lore as much as they can while they add their touch to it. It's just, in some instances, kind of hard to do that.

[Phoebus]

@Pheobus: Actually, What I say isn't misleading. Till GW outright says somewhere that the Angels of Vigilance are from DA gene-seed, or They are DA SCs, or that the Angels of Vigilance believe they are successors of DA, They are not from DA gene-seed, nor believe they are from DA.

 

You can't say, with current fluff/lore, because they are from a world that the DA did something at that they are definitely from DA gene-seed stock. There isn't enough context with that link of they are from a world that the DA had a heavy battle at.

 

You can suspect/think they are. but by current Lore/Fluff they are not till GW says otherwise.

The issue at hand is that you claim that the Angels of Vigilance do not believe they are Unforgiven. My position comes down to two items:

 

1. I don't claim that the Angels of Vigilance are Unforgiven for a fact. I am pointing out that all the lore about the Angels of Vigilance is informed from an outside perspective. As such, it is impossible to say, "The Angels of Vigilance believe X, Y, or Z" about their lineage. You can't know what the Angels of Vigilance believe, because the only perspective for their lore is written by someone who doesn't know either. Unlike the seven Unforgiven Chapters described in Codex: Dark Angels, none of the available background makes definite statements about their gene-seed. All we have are hints.

 

2. The fact of the matter is this: as the lore of 40k has evolved, the number of Dark Angels Successors has grown beyond the original three (Angels of Absolution, Angels of Redemption, and Angels of Vengeance). More specifically, it was qualified that more than three Second Founding Chapters were created even before Gav Thorpe released The Unforgiven. Despite this, only one more Second Founding Chapter has been given an official name (the Lions Sable, from the Cypher Dataslate). That means, that, even if you choose to restrict yourself to the canon provided by Thorpe, there are no less than seven unnamed Second Founding Chapters descended from the Dark Angels.

 

Where the Angels of Vigilance are concerned, the only bit of lore we have about their history directly relates to the Dark Angels. Specifically, it states that the Dark Angels attacked Pervigilium following the Horus Heresy, and that, years later, after the Second Founding, the Angels of Vigilance arrived to claim that planet as their fief.

 

Now, you can certainly claim that is nothing more than coincidence that a Second Founding Chapter with characteristics associated with the Dark Angels ("monastic nature", an "unflinching devotion to duty", and a penchant for disobeying the Imperium) occupied a world the Dark Angels had - for reasons unknown - attacked just years prior. You can chose to ignore the fact that the author mentions the Dark Angels' attack on Pervigilium immediately in the same sentence that he states the reasons why the Angels of Vigilance have sworn a blood oath to never leave that place unattended are unrecorded. You have every right to say that, in your 40k, the Unforgiven and the Angels of Vigilance are unrelated. You can't, however, claim that the Angels of Vigilance categorically don't believe they are Unforgiven, because their belief is never stated. Nor can you plausibly expect someone to take your word for it that the Angels of Vigilance categorically are not Unforgiven when the only lore about them is directly linked to that of the Dark Angels and their characteristics.

 

Again, feel free to share your opinion, but understand that there are too many connections between the Angels of Vigilance and the Dark Angels Legion for you to offer it as fact.

 

Cheers!

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I have to agree with Phoebus. The rumors of Angels of Vigilance being a DA Sucessor, backed with so many evidence point that they are indeed of the Unforgiven, even if not confirmed by GW. The coincidences are just too much! Still, there always the chance coincidences are just coincidences... When it comes to DA and their Sucessors we will never know for sure, it's hard to say a definite yes or no.

Now, that said it doesn't mean that all DA Sucessors are Unforgiven...

It's perfectly plausible that some Chapters are still in the dark... but the reluctance of the High Lords of Terra to create new Chapters with the excellent DA gene-seed probably means that DA/Unforgiven have the means of tracking and turning Sucessor Chapters into Unforgiven too, so if a Sucessor will have a good chance of becoming Unforgiven too.

[Radoslav]

Please, be so kind to remind me, brothers- do High Lords have DA gene seed stored somehow? I would imagine that even if they did (and used during "Dark founding") their storage, without active replenishment, would have to be depleted by now, thus making new, Lion' geneseed based chapters almost impossible without cooperation from one of existing Unforgiven chapters (and thus- without at least knowledge- if not agreement- of Grandmaster).

[Harleqvin]

It's stored by the admech for new chapters decreed ok by the high lords of Terra. It's also in the chapter, because the glands are in the space marines and they will keep some cultivated for when they need to add new marines, but all the ones in a chapter are for only increasing the chapter. the high lords have to agree to make new chapters.

 

 

Actually what I said is true. Until GW says they are, they aren't. We can suspect they might be because of what they said, or think it is highly likely. Especially with the only stated things is "suspected" and even too many coincidences.  It's a kind of :cussty way that I am correct in this, but I am correct ={(>

Never said there weren't more than the 7/8 they have stated. I know there are more, they just haven't been named yet..

And the current codex says DA successors are known collectively as the Unforgiven. It doesn't say some of them.
Also, Progenitor Chapters can't just make SCs. They have to get the ok from the High Lords. Which is why there aren't that many because the High Lords keep passing them over, mainly because of the fear they are legion building.

 

[Chaplain Lucifer]

You are indeed correct that GW doesn't list Angels of Vigilance as Unforgiven/Sucessor Chapter of DA. You are not correct however in dismissing them as Unforgiven just because they aren't listed as such.

Plus.. re you going to say to this guy: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298905-angels-of-vigilance/?p=3858173 , this guy: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/293112-angels-of-vigilance-marine/?p=3732624 or this guy: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273677-wip-angels-of-vigilance-and-dark-angels-7-5-dreadrazor/?p=3343217 that they totally wrong and should take their models anf fluff to another part of the forum because AoV are not classified as Unforgiven?

 

I think this is a case of not seeing the forest for the trees. :) You are totally correct that AoV are not listed as an official Unforgiven Chapter, but we have enough leeway and pieces of evidence to make them Unforgiven if we chose to, because in GW universe there are some things we can change without big fuss and others we can't.  I mean.. it's an extra 1000 bodies looking out for Fallen, hard to refuse, heh?

 

Cheers! :D

[Harleqvin]

I never said they couldn't be DA. Just that officially they aren't, and that I'm right in that regard. Because of all that info we have for them, I think they very well could be DA SCs.
Those mates/loveys who have done AoVig, have all the right to be here in the DA section.
There is enough people of the thought of them being DA SCs, I think it is fine they are on this section of the Forum. They could also be on the SM section, too, if they wanted.

Please don't try to put words in my mouth.

I thought this thread was about what is "officially stated" DA & their Successor Chapters? Not who we think/believe are based off of speculative information.

[Phoebus]

Harleqvin,

 

I have not put a single word in your mouth, and I don't appreciate you saying that I did. Your specific words were:

 

The Chapter doesn't believe it ...

They don't believe they are. (edit - Or more to the point that because they have not said they believe they are, They are not a chapter that believes they are.

Till GW outright says somewhere that the Angels of Vigilance are from DA gene-seed ... They are not from DA gene-seed, nor believe they are from DA.

What you offered in your first couple of posts in this topic is part assumption (the idea that the Chapter doesn't believe something, in absence of any data to support your assertion) and part an attempt to force an absolute to an unknown (the idea that, when GW doesn't offer any definite information about lineage, a Chapter can't be descended from a certain other Chapter).

 

That position is virtually 180 degrees from your last post, immediately above mine.

 

The bottom line is this. Anytime GW withholds any definite information about a Chapter's lineage, anyone is well within their rights to make an assumption about it. If a Chapter's lore provides hints as to their character, associations, and history, logic follows that interested parties will use these to make an educated guess about its lineage. Using your original argument, however, and by taking your specific words to their logical extreme, until GW outright says somewhere that the Angels of Vigilance are from any Chapter's gene-seed, or that the are any Chapter's [successor Chapter], or that they believe they are successors of any Chapter, they are not from any gene-seed, nor do they believe they are from any Chapter.

 

Do you see how illogical that gets? Hence why I'm glad you've changed your approach and are willing to consider possibilities in the absence of definitive statements.

 

To your last question, this thread is about Dark Angels Successors, and evolved from a side-discussion about whether or not all Chapters descended from the Dark Angels were Unforgiven or not. If you want to keep this topic about what is "officially stated", though, then it's going to be rather short. There are only eight (I believe) Chapters that are officially qualified as being descended from the Dark Angels Legion, and one of them is presumed destroyed.

 

Cheers!

[Radoslav]

To add some fuel to discussion: Lexicanum has some quite decent materials (with references to official sources) regarding successor chapters:

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dark_Angels

[Harleqvin]

Phoebus, I was referring to Lucifer. I realize i should have quoted him, or put @Chaplain Lucifer.

And no. What I have been saying this whole time was officially they aren't. Not That "I don't believe they are." There is a difference.
So no. What I have said is not a whole 180 degree turn.

Just because people want to believe something is official, even though there is no official statement that it is, it's not official. As in the case of AoVig. Lots of people believe they are DA SC, but "Officially" they aren't.

[Bryan Blaire]

The thread is about the discussion of Dark Angels Successors. That's it. There has never been a requirement that something "must be official" to discuss it.

 

Just because people want to believe something is official, even though there is no official statement that it is, it's not official.

Harleqvin, you say that GW is invalidating older fluff with the new fluff... Can you tell me what has been said by GW that leads you to believe that? I ask because I've never seen that kind of statement from Games Workshop, and if there is, I would like to see their official stance.

 

Radoslav, all Chapters are required to provide a tithe of gene-seed to the Adeptus Terra by way of the Adeptus Mechanicus (who stores it). Not doing so is a huge violation of the political situation in the Imperium and draws huge consequences. The last time a Chapter did that (the Astral Claws), it was one of the triggers for the Badab War. I don't think that the High Lords are in danger of running out of DA gene seed to found new Chapters though.

 

Only the High Lords of Terra have the authority to declare a new Founding, however, that doesn't instantly remove the ability of a Chapter to create a successor on the sly. After all, records of gene line and Founding are lost all the time. Something tells me that this may be one of the reasons the High Lords keep the DA gene line on such a tight leash: if a new DA Successor Chapter were to just randomly appear, it would probably give them more reason to call the DA to task, since they are likely keeping their own records on the Dark Angels (concerns regarding Legion building and all that).

 

Something we haven't discussed that may be throwing people is "What is the definition of a Successor Chapter?"

 

To me, it's always been a Chapter that has a specific gene line. However, I can definitely see a different argument being that a Successor Chapter is only a Chapter (and it could be of any gene line) that was trained to conduct warfare and have certain Chapter cult beliefs in a specific way by a previous Chapter.

 

If you are using the second concept, I would definitely agree that the only Successors to the Dark Angels are going to be Unforgiven. No other Chapters except Unforgiven are going to be able to teach fledgling Chapters to be Unforgiven.

 

Going by the first concept though, gives much more latitude, because it relies on gene line, which may be unknown to he Chapter itself. They have been simply told who they are, they don't actually know. Their training cadre could conceivably come from anywhere and is too to teach them the style of warfare and cult practices they know.

 

I don't have references with me right now, so I can't say definitively is we have ever been truly given the definition of a Successor. If there's one in a Codex somewhere, it would be interesting to see what's been said.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Sorry if my response seemed crude, I definately didn't want to put words in your mouth. I was just giving examples on how in certain times we can't be adamant...

If the discussion only involves DA official sucessor chapters, then like Phoebus said, there is not much to discuss. But if we broaden the subject a little more we can see GW has left a breadcrumb trail and encourages us to assume some Chapters like the AoV are Unforgiven.

Again, I'm not saying you are incorrect ... I'm just saying that both GW and fan base seem to agree that AoV should be Unforgiven and treated as such, that's why in all theseyears of DA forum not one bats an eyelash if someone wants to do a AoV force, create fluff and call it Unforgiven... so if the community in general doesn't offer resistance to the idea and GW doesn't say no... the idea becomes accepted and even welcomed, so my point is just that discussion about the AoV is welcomed in the DA forum because they are officially an unnoficial Unforgiven Chapter. ;)

Cheers!

[Harleqvin]

To add some fuel to discussion: Lexicanum has some quite decent materials (with references to official sources) regarding successor chapters:

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dark_Angels

There is a bit of Info on there. And interestingly enough, seems to says what I have been saying.

Are officially DA SCs

The Angels of Absolution                 

The Angels of Redemption             

The Angels of Vengeance               

The Angels of Wrath                          

The Consecrators                                  

The Disciples of Caliban                   

The Guardians of the Covenant      

The Lion Sables                                    

The Persecuters of Darkness  (but can be debatable as it was in a section detailing how you can make your own chapter.)

 

Suspected (not officially said are DA SCs)

Angels of Vigilance

Star Phantoms

 

[Harleqvin]

@bryan. New editions of the game invalidate stuff of old editions each time. Everyone knows that. Like the name of Lion El'Jonson used to not be spelled that way, they changed it. It's now officially Lion El'Jonson. Same with Master Molocai, it used to not be spelled that way. They changed it. There are a lot of things they have changed/overwritten with each passing edition of the game.

Now if this is just a discussion of what we believe should be DA SCs. I pretty much said I believe the AoVig are, but officially they aren't.

Definition of a successor chapter would be, a new chapter with the Progenitors Gene-seed.


Edit
@@Chaplain Lucifer

S'all good, I apologize, too, for saying it like that. I could have just said "I wasn't meaning it that way" instead of saying "don't put words in my mouth." That was rude of me.
And yeah, If the discussion was only Official it would be pretty short....
And I get ya on that official non-official thing for AoVig. lqtm.

[Bryan Blaire]

LOL, so no official statement on the subject. "Everyone knows it" but no one actually says it. Seems like you wouldn't consider that official, per your own statement. I mean, with that technicality, all the fluff from Angels of Darkness is no longer official, because new editions came out after it was printed. Or is it only invalid if it is in conflict? It seems like a complex system to try and keep track of.

 

It's all good though, I just happen to completely disagree, based on the party line via GW about loose canon from every writer that has ever spoken up about it has said. It's been published by GW, it's official, simple as that. ~shrug~ Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I appreciate the vagaries present due to the loose canon and the inability to be "Internet right".

 

Regarding the Successors by the first definition: there's millennia of room available then for a DA successor that isn't Unforgiven. All they have to be is unknown to the DA and the Chapter to not know and/or never have sought them out, since their training cadre would have had to come from a non-Unforgiven Chapter.

 

Based on the Carmine Blades (an official GW produced "Successor that wasn't") that the line is actually by the second method. The Carmine Blades were actually originally the Swords of Haldroth, and believed they were from the Ultramarines line, until someone from the Blood Angels pointed out their afflictions were actually due to them being the BA blood line. So they actually started as "UM Successors" and seemingly fought as such for a decent enough period of time. It wasn't until they became aware that they had a different lineage that they "became" a Blood Angels Successor and learned to fight as the BA did.

 

Let's not forget that there's a big difference between the meta-information we players know and the in-world information that the characters know.

 

And with DA/Unforgiven, the actual in-world information known may actually be much less than the meta-info.

 

So the "unknown Successor" is definitely possible for the DA line.

[Frater Cornelius]

I just want to mention that while it is stated that all Unforgiven hunt the fallen, it was not stated that they all do it for the same reason. Each Chapter will have their own. Sure, most will do it for the same reason as DA, but I am sure there are those with different views or and those that do it out of respect to their parent Chapter or simply because they have been asked. So there is leeway for creativity here, as long as they hunt the fallen in one way or another.

[Phoebus]

Phoebus, I was referring to Lucifer. I realize i should have quoted him, or put @Chaplain Lucifer.

My apologies for the confusion!

 

 

 

And no. What I have been saying this whole time was officially they aren't. Not That "I don't believe they are." There is a difference.

So no. What I have said is not a whole 180 degree turn.

Just because people want to believe something is official, even though there is no official statement that it is, it's not official. As in the case of AoVig. Lots of people believe they are DA SC, but "Officially" they aren't.

I invite you to look at your posts, which I cited above. They stand in stark contrast with what you're asserting now. Ultimately, you have to remember that absence of evidence does not constitute evidence of absence.

 

For example, you and I have never met. I have never said my eyes are blue, and no information this forum can provide to you about me states for a fact that my eyes are blue.  You can't use that absence of evidence to tell people that, unless my forum profile says so specifically, I don't have blue eyes nor do I believe that I have blue eyes. The very premise of that argument is illogical. At best, you can tell other people that they can't state for a fact that I have blue eyes - because they don't have definitive evidence, either.

 

In the case of the Angels of Vigilance, GW purposely omitted any definitive statement about this Chapter's descent. They also purposely added qualified characteristics* and history that point to a specific Legion. I imagine that, whether that makes the Angels of Vigilance "official" Unforgiven or not was entirely secondary to the authors of that article. They were more concerned with making an interesting Chapter of mysterious origins whose background strongly hints at its lineage.

 

* I mean, even if you ignore the historical connections, the look, the character of the Chapter, etc., consider the name alone. Literally only Dark Angels Successors use the "Angels of [insert noun here]" naming convention, just like literally only Blood Angels Successors use the "Angels [insert adjective here]" naming convention.

 

Anyways, moving on:

 

The Angels of Wrath and the Persecutors of Darkness are both products of Citadel Journal articles. Both carry the "buyer beware" warning on the Lexicanum site, indicating they may be fan entries rather than "official" GW products.

 

I tend to agree with Harleqvin in the sense that I think it makes most sense for all Dark Angels Successors to be Unforgiven. If this were not the case, and if the High Lords of Terra had a system in place where they could consistently use the uncompromised gene-seed of the Dark Angels to produce Chapters independent of their influence, then there is no point in skipping them during any Foundings.

 

That having been said, I feel like I need to side with Bryan in the sense that there almost needs to be an exception to the rule. So few things in Warhammer 40k are absolutes, and I feel uncomfortable arguing that there cannot be any descendants of the Dark Angels Legion who aren't read in on the Hunt.

[Bryan Blaire]

I'm not entirely sure that DA gene seed has been skipped in a lot of Foundings. There are at least a couple of "Codex Chapters" that could be from DA stock and simply no one was told. I'm not making the assumption that the First Founding Chapter is always notified directly that their gene stock was used... Case in point, again, the Carmine Blades.

 

I also really don't see this as a "side" thing, more like a "read the spectrum of responses and consider where your ideas fit in" thing.