Dark Angels Successors Discussion

[Frater Cornelius]

DA have the purest Gene Seed along with UM, so I think it is plausible that there are Chapter with DA gene seed but were never told. The Imperium loves purity and stability, so I assume they would prefer DA Gene Seed over, say, Blood Angels.

[Phoebus]

I'm not entirely sure that DA gene seed has been skipped in a lot of Foundings. There are at least a couple of "Codex Chapters" that could be from DA stock and simply no one was told. I'm not making the assumption that the First Founding Chapter is always notified directly that their gene stock was used... Case in point, again, the Carmine Blades.

 

I also really don't see this as a "side" thing, more like a "read the spectrum of responses and consider where your ideas fit in" thing.

I think this really comes down to whether or not you subscribe to the idea that a Chapter could be formed by drawing manpower (the training cadre, officers, etc.) from an unrelated Chapter - or some other means. If you do, then, yeah, there is the potential for some subterfuge there. I don't lean that way, though. I tend to look to the Dark Founding and the Cursed Founding as the occasions when a fearful, paranoid, and superstitious Imperium would try something like this.

[Bryan Blaire]

Well, again, per the story of the Carmine Blades, this has already happened. The results seem to have been an effective, but unhappy and fearful Chapter that was trying to hide issues it had from the rest of the Imperium. They functioned perfectly well as Ultramarines Successors for a long enough period of time though, the text actually says that they completely thought that's who they were.

 

So if you want to go the "GW official okay" route, then there is already official lore precedent.

[Harleqvin]

 

Phoebus, I was referring to Lucifer. I realize i should have quoted him, or put @Chaplain Lucifer.

My apologies for the confusion!

 

 

 

And no. What I have been saying this whole time was officially they aren't. Not That "I don't believe they are." There is a difference.

So no. What I have said is not a whole 180 degree turn.

Just because people want to believe something is official, even though there is no official statement that it is, it's not official. As in the case of AoVig. Lots of people believe they are DA SC, but "Officially" they aren't.

I invite you to look at your posts, which I cited above. They stand in stark contrast with what you're asserting now. Ultimately, you have to remember that absence of evidence does not constitute evidence of absence.

 

For example, you and I have never met. I have never said my eyes are blue, and no information this forum can provide to you about me states for a fact that my eyes are blue.  You can't use that absence of evidence to tell people that, unless my forum profile says so specifically, I don't have blue eyes nor do I believe that I have blue eyes. The very premise of that argument is illogical. At best, you can tell other people that they can't state for a fact that I have blue eyes - because they don't have definitive evidence, either.

 

In the case of the Angels of Vigilance, GW purposely omitted any definitive statement about this Chapter's descent. They also purposely added qualified characteristics* and history that point to a specific Legion. I imagine that, whether that makes the Angels of Vigilance "official" Unforgiven or not was entirely secondary to the authors of that article. They were more concerned with making an interesting Chapter of mysterious origins whose background strongly hints at its lineage.

 

* I mean, even if you ignore the historical connections, the look, the character of the Chapter, etc., consider the name alone. Literally only Dark Angels Successors use the "Angels of [insert noun here]" naming convention, just like literally only Blood Angels Successors use the "Angels [insert adjective here]" naming convention.

 

Anyways, moving on:

 

The Angels of Wrath and the Persecutors of Darkness are both products of Citadel Journal articles. Both carry the "buyer beware" warning on the Lexicanum site, indicating they may be fan entries rather than "official" GW products.

 

I tend to agree with Harleqvin in the sense that I think it makes most sense for all Dark Angels Successors to be Unforgiven. If this were not the case, and if the High Lords of Terra had a system in place where they could consistently use the uncompromised gene-seed of the Dark Angels to produce Chapters independent of their influence, then there is no point in skipping them during any Foundings.

 

That having been said, I feel like I need to side with Bryan in the sense that there almost needs to be an exception to the rule. So few things in Warhammer 40k are absolutes, and I feel uncomfortable arguing that there cannot be any descendants of the Dark Angels Legion who aren't read in on the Hunt.

 

S'all good, mate. I really should have either quoted Lucifer or said @Luciifer.

 

Actually they don't stand in contrast. My statements from before were directed to "officially" they aren't. I never stated about my own personal belief of if I thought they were DA SCs till a few posts above, and a personal belief has no reflection on what is officially stated as being an SC. Plus, if there is no official stating of them believing it, they don't officially believe it.

So no. They don't stand in contrast. I never said I don't believe they are and then said I believe they are.

 

Now, with a product of fiction, you can say that there is this person named Phoebus.

Anyone in the real world can extrapolate information, make assumptions about this fictitious figure. One can say Phoebus has blue eyes, another can say Phoebus has brown eyes. No knowledge though of Phoebus' actual eye color(s). Technically, both of those people, are wrong. No official stance has been given about this person named Phoebus. They can believe either one of their thoughts. Now if there is a character stated earlier that has similarities to the one known as Phoebus. Let's say that both characters have been stated as having similar noses, eye brows, Facial features, skin color and hair color, and then that this other character is said to be 20 or so years older than Phoebus. It would be logical to guess that they are related, maybe this other guy is the father of Phoebus, could be a brother. People guess about this, they believe it. It says this other guy has Blue eyes. Now those who are saying Phoebus has Blue eyes think they are right, because of what appear as hints.

 

Now, just because the readers believe this notion, does not make it true. In fact they are wrong  Because till the author(s) state it so. It's not true. Now that doesn't mean that the author doesn't want it to be true. Just that it hasn't been stated yet. It is not "official". Because there is no "official" stance on it. One can say that something is not officially this or that. Even if something is hinted at being true, this, or that. Till it's said it's officially true. It's not.

 

In real life though. It's different. I can't say it's not true that the person I have never met has blue eyes or another color, even though there is no official statement regarding eye color. There isn't enough context, however the person is there, actually there. Real Life and Fictitious Writing are two different things.

 

And yeah, the Angels of Wrath and the Persecutors of Darkness can be eeehhhh, as they were CJ items, I just don't recall enough of the AoW to state anything additional about, and I realize I forgot to add the "it's debatable" part for them.... My apologies about that. I remember enough of the CJ that had The PoD. It was in an article detailing how to create your own chapters, but it was still a GW article by a GW employee in a GW product, which is why I stated all I did with the debatable because it was dealing with making up a chapter. I'm actually pretty sad now that I didn't buy them when I first saw them. However, that was back before I started trying to collect GW printings dealing with DA in some form ={(>

 

 

[Augustus]

I, too, have a feeling that there are a number of "ultramarine" successors that are really the scions of the 1st legion. I am sure the High Lords are somewhat aware of the whole Unforgiven angle and the relationship between them. It would be prudent for them to use 1st legion stock and give the newly founded legion over to an Ultramarine descendent for training. That said, I am sure the Dark Angels are adept at getting to the bottom of obfuscation. It would make for a cool novel, I think, in having a newly founded chapter being confronted by the ancient sin of their forbears and seeing them react. 

[Radoslav]

I would rather be reluctant towards presuming anybody apart from Emperor himself knows about DA sin and - as you said it brother- Unforgiven angle. One- legion building (not a chapter building, mind it- quite a difference here) is a serious crime and that alone would have brought a prosecution on entire chapter. Two- only DA inner circle is aware of that and again- since letting it out would mean fall of the chapter, pure and simple, I doubt they would share it with outsiders. I recall (although my memory is not really great) that in early fluff only Grand Master and Emperor himself knew full details (but please, be so kind to correct me if I am wrong).

[Master Avoghai]

After reading most of the thread and the debate, I'm just wondering...

 

How much is it important for the OP that the geneseed is DA?

 

I mean... If it brings nothing in relation to the hunt, or the legend of the Plains world, what does it bring to the general fluff that they are DA and not IF or UM?

 

 

Because I have the feeling that it only comes to justify the use of the DA codex, but actually, with the rule of the count as and a good fluff, you can perfectly explains why an IF successor use the DA codex...

[Magos Valkamar]

After reading most of the thread and the debate, I'm just wondering...

 

How much is it important for the OP that the geneseed is DA?

 

I mean... If it brings nothing in relation to the hunt, or the legend of the Plains world, what does it bring to the general fluff that they are DA and not IF or UM?

 

 

Because I have the feeling that it only comes to justify the use of the DA codex, but actually, with the rule of the count as and a good fluff, you can perfectly explains why an IF successor use the DA codex...

 

I'm using the DA codex because they are Unforgiven - the chapter just wants to give the appearance that they have very little to do with the other Unforgiven apart from how they are organized. It's all smoke and mirrors to aid the Hunt.

[Bryan Blaire]

After reading most of the thread and the debate, I'm just wondering...

How much is it important for the OP that the geneseed is DA?

I mean... If it brings nothing in relation to the hunt, or the legend of the Plains world, what does it bring to the general fluff that they are DA and not IF or UM?

Because I have the feeling that it only comes to justify the use of the DA codex, but actually, with the rule of the count as and a good fluff, you can perfectly explains why an IF successor use the DA codex...

While that may have been the point of discussion in Jack of the Pelt's thread, it was not the point of the discussion in this thread. There was not really an OP here (unless it was me) and this thread was for the general discussion of DA Successor identity.

[Isiah]

Well, the OP answered anyway ... so all's good :)

[Master Avoghai]

@ Jack ok then, I didn't get that point.

 

@ Bryan : yeah sorry but I didn't find the original topic. However this brought salt to the discussion : the OP answered that it's just smoke and mirror thing and that they are unforgiven in disguise... So finally we reached to the initial point :

All successors (including the OP's chapter) are unforgiven... It's just that some are more discrete than other about it... :P

[Bryan Blaire]

All successors (including the OP's chapter) are unforgiven... It's just that some are more discrete than other about it... :P

If that works for you, great. I've already shown why it would be perfectly fine for someone to think otherwise based on official GW text.

[lhavoc]

Are there any pictures of the Angels of Vigilence? The Robes would be a dead giveaway

[HaSY]

They may bear resemblance to DA but they are from Codex Astartes Successor Chapters list along with Angels of Vigilance... that's sad

[Corsovitt]

This thread seems to parallel some of my own musings when it comes to a dark angels successor.

 

The basis for my own successor is that during the great crusade permission is given by the Lion to begin recruiting from a human system adjacent to the Thramas sector a Terran cadre of approx 500 marines is left behind with a large repository of geneseed to raise a force of 5000 to 10000 astartes with which to help complete the great crusade.

 

They remain unaware of the outbreak of the heresy and are in the process of shipping out the first batch of 2000 astartes when a supposed allied battlefleet drop into the system and overwhelm the system defences and destroy the force in transit. Several companies of Night Lord's and Iron Warriors alongside traitorous elements of the solar auxilia and imperial army deploy planet side and become embroiled in a bitter war of attrition in which the attacker's are unable to use their orbital supremacy as they are attempting to take the planet's forges and geneseed repositry intact. The Terran training cadre alongside the noviate astartes destined for the subsequent batches of astartes are able to hold the traitors but at great cost the surface war grinds on until the shattering of the Night Lord's fleet in the nearby Thramas sector, fearing the arrival of a Dark Angels retribution fleet the Traitors pull out in order to regroup with the Remenants of the Night Lord's fleet in a parting gesture they unleash an orbital bombardment which causes widespread destruction.

 

With the forges in disarray, starports shattered and population decimated the surviving Terrans and natives await a Dark Angels relief force which due to the events elsewhere never arrives. The beleaguered garrison is eventually relieved by another loyalist legion and unaware of the events leading up to the destruction of Caliban become increasingly bitter towards their parent legion.

 

The Calabinite's in a legion already swathed in secrecy and distrustful/dismissive of the Terran and native influences choose not to share the secrets of the unforgiven. With the coming of the codex astartes the chapter embraces the Division of the legion and becomes a second founding chapter still venerating their primarch and terran heritage but bitter and distrustful of their Calabinite brothers. Over ten millennia the chapter undertakes further foundings and begins to keep its own secrets.

[Brother Syddraf]

Is there lore some where that says the librarians of the Dark Angels could sense the fallen because of their geneseed. If that is the case, a whole new chapter coming into being would generate a big blip on the map to them.

The question is then do they add them to the fold and use the 'distance' the high lords think they have build between the hidden founding and the Dark Angel to an advantage?

[Harleqvin]

Is there lore some where that says the librarians of the Dark Angels could sense the fallen because of their geneseed. If that is the case, a whole new chapter coming into being would generate a big blip on the map to them.

The question is then do they add them to the fold and use the 'distance' the high lords think they have build between the hidden founding and the Dark Angel to an advantage?

Well the Cypher dataslate had this on pg 9.

"It was at first believed that all their traitorous brethren had been destroyed at the

Fall of Caliban, yet it was not so. Eventually, the Dark Angels Librarians picked up

the telltale traces of their lost brethren. Thus it was revealed that those defeated

Dark Angels traitors – known as the Fallen Angels, or just the Fallen – were not all

destroyed when they were sucked into the Warp. Instead, the Fallen had been cast

across time and space, for the Librarians picked up evidence that many of the

traitors had returned, their psychic signatures shining out briefly from many

scattered places across the galaxy. At this point, the Dark Angels merely classified

all the Fallen together, for they had not yet recognised or picked out the most

mysterious and prolific of their number: the one known as Cypher."

 

So they are able to pick up somehow, and the gene-seed would be a likely factor as how else could they locate their "lost brethren" out from others.

[Bryan Blaire]

So they are able to pick up somehow, and the gene-seed would be a likely factor as how else could they locate their "lost brethren" out from others.

It's possible, but it seems like the Cypher dataslate already gave the answer:

 

"It was at first believed that all their traitorous brethren had been destroyed at the

Fall of Caliban, yet it was not so. Eventually, the Dark Angels Librarians picked up

the telltale traces of their lost brethren. Thus it was revealed that those defeated

Dark Angels traitors – known as the Fallen Angels, or just the Fallen – were not all

destroyed when they were sucked into the Warp. Instead, the Fallen had been cast

across time and space, for the Librarians picked up evidence that many of the

traitors had returned, their psychic signatures shining out briefly from many

scattered places across the galaxy. At this point, the Dark Angels merely classified

all the Fallen together, for they had not yet recognised or picked out the most

mysterious and prolific of their number: the one known as Cypher."

Emphasis mine.

 

My guess is some kind of psychic spoor from exiting the Warp more than anything, possibly coupled with some kind of Warp interaction with their gene-seed (which is possibly magical Warp meshed stuff in the first place).

[Brother Tyler]

Interesting - no one has brought the Fire Claws/Relictors up yet. Their gene-seed is potentially mixed Dark Angels/Ultramarines (they hail from the 21st (Cursed) Founding, a Founding in which the Adeptus Mechanicus tinkered with the gene-seed and may have mixed gene-seed in Chapters). Though we don't know for a fact that this Chapter carries some legacy of Lion El'Jonson, it remains a possibility.

In my mind, it's quite possible that there are Chapters that, though carrying the gene-seed of the Lion (whether pure or impure, known or unknown), are not numbered among the Unforgiven. How many this might be is anyone's guess. It's definitely within the realm of the possible, however. The reasons for this might be many, and such a concept has been explored in the Brotherhood of Angels challenge (I'll have to look through the Tabula Astartes to find the one I'm thinking of*). Also, the concept of "hidden" Unforgiven Chapters (i.e., Chapters that are among the Unforgiven, but for which outsiders see no clue) has also been explored in that challenge (I've done so with two Chapters: my homegrown take on the Angels of Vigilance and my purely homegrown Angels of Veneration/Venerators).

The real questions to ask:

• Can the Adeptus Mechanicus use any gene-seed they choose in a new founding (without having to secure permission from a parent Chapter)?
• If a new scion of the First Legion is created without the knowledge of the Unforgiven and is established as a Codex Chapter, would the Unforgiven be able to discover the new Chapter's lineage through other means?
• If the Unforgiven learned of a previously unknown "brother" Chapter, would they bring the new Chapter into the Unforgiven fold?

The first question is without a doubt answered with a "yes" (as the Angels Carmine example shows).

The second and third questions, however, aren't so clear. In the case of the second, the Unforgiven might learn of the lineage of some Dark Angels Legion Successors, but the citation about the ability for the Unforgiven to detect their Fallen brethren is, at present, isolated to the Fallen. Whether or not Successors, especially later Successors (and those in which the gene-seed may have been tampered with, as in the possible case of the Fire Claws/Relictors), share that psychic signature is anyone's guess. In the case of the Angels Carmine, the curse of their gene-seed is distinct. If all other Legion Successors similarly share unique psychic signatures then no Chapter's lineage can ever be in doubt. The explanation for the Fallen might be that the influence of Luther combined with that of the Warp, and potentially psychic monitoring of all Dark Angels Legionnaires during the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy, meant that the Unforgiven were able to identify them not because they all shared a genetic psychic signature but because their psychic signatures were already known. The whole line of questioning on that matter is filled with too many unknowns for us to draw a definite conclusion.

Once the Unforgiven learn that they have a new "brother," however, any number of factors prevent them from choosing to disclose their heritage and (perceived) guilt. Perhaps the new Chapter has close ties with some outside agency (e.g., the Inquisition or Ecclesiarchy) with whom the Unforgiven are either fearful or suspicious. Or perhaps the fledgling Chapter asserts their autonomy when the Unforgiven make tentative overtures. We could go on and on with potential reasons for the Unforgiven to not disclose the Hunt for the Fallen to these newbies.

The perspective of the various codices on the Dark Angels and their Successors will necessarily slant towards the Unforgiven and the Hunt for the Fallen - these are the core elements that distinguish these Chapters from others. This necessary focus means that (potential) non-Unforgiven Successors of the Dark Angels Legion aren't going to be mentioned unless there is something special about their history relating to the Unforgiven (such as the Unforgiven destroying them). The lack of mentions of such Chapters isn't special in and of itself, nor does this lack of evidence mean that no such Chapters exist (unless/until GW ever provides explicit information that no such Chapters exist).

* Okay, I went through the Brotherhood of Angels entries and didn't find any that fit this bill. What I found was a number of Chapters that were either secretly Unforgiven or which had turned from the Unforgiven. So I guess I know what I'm covering down on the next time I participate in that challenge.

[Jareddm]

What about the idea of an exiled member of the Unforgiven?  Perhaps this was mentioned already but on a skim of the thread, I couldn't find a reference to it.  The idea being that the chapter was originally part of the Unforgiven, but did something that turned the other chapters against them.  Perhaps not necessarily heretical, but enough to have the Unforgiven hammer brought down on them for.  I could imagine judgement being passed on them.  Their Inner Circle members all killed, their records forcibly destroyed.  But the chapter itself left alive.  

 

Five or six thousand years later, maybe they still remember they're Dark Angel successors, maybe not, but they certainly know nothing about the Fallen or the Hunt.  Perhaps they find a scrap of evidence from their past that leads them back to the Unforgiven.  An old record from a ship lost to a space hulk, perhaps.  Maybe the Dark Angels no longer had their own records on the chapter and greet them with suspicion.  Or maybe the Dark Angels still kept an eye on the chapter even after thousands of years, either feeling that the chapter has made their penance and are ready to be brought back in, or must be destroyed before they learn too much of their past crimes, for fear that those crimes may be committed against the Unforgiven again.

[Brother Tyler]

The most likely scenario in my mind [if a Chapter of the Unforgiven broke ranks] would be that the other Unforgiven Chapters would annihilate the wayward Chapter or, failing in the effort, would lump them in with the Fallen and hunt them without mercy. The Unforgiven have, after all, demonstrated a willingness to destroy other loyalists that learn of the Unforgiven (a small crusade of the Black Templars). A fellow Chapter fully in the know about the Fallen would represent a severe threat to the paranoid Unforgiven and simply couldn't be allowed to exist. At the very least, the Unforgiven would think that the wayward Chapter had been destroyed (I very much doubt that the Unforgiven would allow any penance and independent existence).

Just my opinion.

In fact, one of the Chapters developed for the Brotherhood of Angels challenge explored this exact theme. It was the Throne Knights by . That is, of course, simply one hobbyist's view of how such a situation might pan out (and no official lore gives us information - unless the Lions Sable were actually destroyed under far different circumstances than we have been told ).

[twopounder]

It's not really that hard at all. A DA Successor that has no knowledge of the Fallen would have nothing remarkable about it. You likely would never even know they we Dark Angels gene line if they had no connection to the Unforgiven, they would be indistinguishable from an Ultramarine successor.

That's actually exactly what happened to the Carmine Blades... the real trick for a hidden DA Successor like that would be writing a convincing story about why someone found out and what happens afterward (after all, there's no real outward distinction for the sons of the Lion like there is behavioral weirdness with BA Successors). After all, it isn't like Successors automatically come with a "Who's Your Daddy" ID tag, or the Cursed Founding likely couldn't have happened. Look at all the unknown gene line Chapters, for whatever reason. It's not hard to believe that the High Lords might experiment with the Lion's gene-line, or even seed Foundings with them without saying so, if for no other reason than they can. Maybe some of those 3/5ths of all Chapters are Ultramarines actually contain a larger portion of "hidden" DA Successors.

Maybe the Chapter manages to unlock a gene-print sealed vault, something hidden by the Lion himself, etc. What makes it uninteresting is if everyone starts to do it in similar fashion. It would take some creativity, but it could be done.

Well, technically there is... if all of the organs work correctly. It dramatically narrows down the possible geneseed. If I recall, only three chapters produce geneseed that is still fully functional. Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and the third eludes me.

Not a smoking gun, but enough to question the validity of their statement. Especially if they were pretty far down on the founding list.

The most likely scenario in my mind [if a Chapter of the Unforgiven broke ranks] would be that the other Unforgiven Chapters would annihilate the wayward Chapter or, failing in the effort, would lump them in with the Fallen and hunt them without mercy. The Unforgiven have, after all, demonstrated a willingness to destroy other loyalists that learn of the Unforgiven (a small crusade of the Black Templars). A fellow Chapter fully in the know about the Fallen would represent a severe threat to the paranoid Unforgiven and simply couldn't be allowed to exist. At the very least, the Unforgiven would think that the wayward Chapter had been destroyed (I very much doubt that the Unforgiven would allow any penance and independent existence).

Just my opinion.

In fact, one of the Chapters developed for the Brotherhood of Angels challenge explored this exact theme. It was the Throne Knights by . That is, of course, simply one hobbyist's view of how such a situation might pan out (and no official lore gives us information - unless the Lions Sable were actually destroyed under far different circumstances than we have been told ).

Actually, there is no proof that the DA destroyed the Ophidium Gulf. Especially considering the templar were dumb zealous enough to try to apprehend Cypher. If anything, the DA were trying to prevent exactly what happened.

[Jareddm]

 

It's not really that hard at all. A DA Successor that has no knowledge of the Fallen would have nothing remarkable about it. You likely would never even know they we Dark Angels gene line if they had no connection to the Unforgiven, they would be indistinguishable from an Ultramarine successor.

 

That's actually exactly what happened to the Carmine Blades... the real trick for a hidden DA Successor like that would be writing a convincing story about why someone found out and what happens afterward (after all, there's no real outward distinction for the sons of the Lion like there is behavioral weirdness with BA Successors). After all, it isn't like Successors automatically come with a "Who's Your Daddy" ID tag, or the Cursed Founding likely couldn't have happened. Look at all the unknown gene line Chapters, for whatever reason. It's not hard to believe that the High Lords might experiment with the Lion's gene-line, or even seed Foundings with them without saying so, if for no other reason than they can. Maybe some of those 3/5ths of all Chapters are Ultramarines actually contain a larger portion of "hidden" DA Successors.

 

Maybe the Chapter manages to unlock a gene-print sealed vault, something hidden by the Lion himself, etc. What makes it uninteresting is if everyone starts to do it in similar fashion. It would take some creativity, but it could be done.

 

Well, technically their is... if all of the organs work correctly. It dramatically narrows down the possible geneseed. If I recall, only three chapters produce geneseed that is still fully functional. Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and the third eludes me.

Iron Hands and White Scars both have all of their organs as well.  And any freakish-looking chapter could possibly be a Salamander or Raven Guard successor as well (Or possibly even Blood Angel if you go by the Angels Sanguine)

[twopounder]

 

 

It's not really that hard at all. A DA Successor that has no knowledge of the Fallen would have nothing remarkable about it. You likely would never even know they we Dark Angels gene line if they had no connection to the Unforgiven, they would be indistinguishable from an Ultramarine successor.

 

That's actually exactly what happened to the Carmine Blades... the real trick for a hidden DA Successor like that would be writing a convincing story about why someone found out and what happens afterward (after all, there's no real outward distinction for the sons of the Lion like there is behavioral weirdness with BA Successors). After all, it isn't like Successors automatically come with a "Who's Your Daddy" ID tag, or the Cursed Founding likely couldn't have happened. Look at all the unknown gene line Chapters, for whatever reason. It's not hard to believe that the High Lords might experiment with the Lion's gene-line, or even seed Foundings with them without saying so, if for no other reason than they can. Maybe some of those 3/5ths of all Chapters are Ultramarines actually contain a larger portion of "hidden" DA Successors.

 

Maybe the Chapter manages to unlock a gene-print sealed vault, something hidden by the Lion himself, etc. What makes it uninteresting is if everyone starts to do it in similar fashion. It would take some creativity, but it could be done.

 

Well, technically their is... if all of the organs work correctly. It dramatically narrows down the possible geneseed. If I recall, only three chapters produce geneseed that is still fully functional. Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and the third eludes me.

Iron Hands and White Scars both have all of their organs as well.  And any freakish-looking chapter could possibly be a Salamander or Raven Guard successor as well (Or possibly even Blood Angel if you go by the Angels Sanguine)

 

 

Afraid not:

 

 

 

All Chapters are different, but the "purest" Chapters in this respect are the Grey Knights, the Ultramarines, and the Dark Angels, who have maintained a large enough supply of stable gene-seed to develop all 19 fully functioning Astartes organ implants.

[HaSY]

 

 

 

It's not really that hard at all. A DA Successor that has no knowledge of the Fallen would have nothing remarkable about it. You likely would never even know they we Dark Angels gene line if they had no connection to the Unforgiven, they would be indistinguishable from an Ultramarine successor.

 

That's actually exactly what happened to the Carmine Blades... the real trick for a hidden DA Successor like that would be writing a convincing story about why someone found out and what happens afterward (after all, there's no real outward distinction for the sons of the Lion like there is behavioral weirdness with BA Successors). After all, it isn't like Successors automatically come with a "Who's Your Daddy" ID tag, or the Cursed Founding likely couldn't have happened. Look at all the unknown gene line Chapters, for whatever reason. It's not hard to believe that the High Lords might experiment with the Lion's gene-line, or even seed Foundings with them without saying so, if for no other reason than they can. Maybe some of those 3/5ths of all Chapters are Ultramarines actually contain a larger portion of "hidden" DA Successors.

 

Maybe the Chapter manages to unlock a gene-print sealed vault, something hidden by the Lion himself, etc. What makes it uninteresting is if everyone starts to do it in similar fashion. It would take some creativity, but it could be done.

 

Well, technically their is... if all of the organs work correctly. It dramatically narrows down the possible geneseed. If I recall, only three chapters produce geneseed that is still fully functional. Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and the third eludes me.

Iron Hands and White Scars both have all of their organs as well.  And any freakish-looking chapter could possibly be a Salamander or Raven Guard successor as well (Or possibly even Blood Angel if you go by the Angels Sanguine)

 

 

Afraid not:

 

 

 

All Chapters are different, but the "purest" Chapters in this respect are the Grey Knights, the Ultramarines, and the Dark Angels, who have maintained a large enough supply of stable gene-seed to develop all 19 fully functioning Astartes organ implants.

 

Cool. Where can I find this source? 

 

I know Dark Angels is one of the purest but I love to read the exact wording. Cheers!