Ruststalkers/Transonic Blades

[Tyriks]

So, I'm just getting into 40k.  I played a tiny bit around 10 years ago but couldn't afford it, now I'm getting into Skitarii.  I have a rules question about the Sicarian Ruststalkers.  You can swap out their chordclaw and razor for two transonic blades, which add +1 str.  Having two, do you get 2 str?  If not, how do you determine which weapon gives str?  It wouldn't really matter here, but if someone had two weapons with different str modfiers, how would that work?  

 

I assume you only get 1 str since it seems like that loadout would be a lot more popular if you got 2 str out of it...

[mmimzie]

When you have two weapons. Before you make your attacks you pick which weapon your make your attacks (think of this as like a main hand that your focusing all your concentration on yielding appropriately). Then you get +1 attacks for having another weapon (maybe the other weapon is being used as a distraction to better let you land blows with your main hand weapons.)

[Dawnstrider]

You will only get +1 str  total. At the beginning of combat, if you have more than one weapon, you must decide which you are going to use and will gain the benefits from that one. Keep in mind your Ruststalkers have furious charge also, so will have another +1 str from that as well. I personally love the blades, much more than the grenades but I seem to be the only one that thinks that :/

[Terminus]

I'm definitely interested in hearing your opinions, but know that you're in for a tough crowd. :P

 

Haywire grenades add a ridiculous amount of utility against monstrous creatures and anything with an armor value. Yeah, the Princeps can take a data spike for haywire, but still.

[Dawnstrider]

Ok Terminus, just remember, you asked for this wall of text.

 

Consider this: If we only consider the Cult Mechanicus and Skitarii codices, so not even considering Knights, there are 14 other weapons available that are either Str 8+, Haywire, Armorbane, or Grav. If I were playing any other army except my Crons, haywire would be a good quality, but in the context of this army, more versatility into vehicle destruction is not needed at all. And what is that haywire is going to get you? In a typical situation, the best you will get is that you will assault a landraider, destroy it, and then be exposed to its occupants and the rest of you opponents army with your fragile stalkers to get shot off the board. On the other hand, with the blades you have the perfect weapon for the task. Your target will be different obviously, but the AP5 in the first turn is a great benefit. It will keep you from wiping out your target during your turn and switch to AP2 just in time for you to pass your opponents shooting phase safely in combat, yet with their large number of attacks, finish off the unit and be free again to charge in your next turn.

 

As for the benefit of the chordclaw, the chordclaw will surely help them more with monstrous creatures than the blades, but after the first round of combat, the distance between the two closes significantly. The AP2 will make up much of difference against all MCs except those with invulnerable saves. Even without the fleshbane, a unit of stalkers who assault can put enough wounds on an MC to being it down to close to it. If you do bring it down, with the claw or otherwise, you face the same scenario as above. And while you will sustain damage in Combat with an MC that denies both your Sv and your FNP, it is better than being shot off the map. So with either tool, your goal is to destroy the MC in question in the second round of combat (your opponent turn), so you can assault anew on your turn. The targets where the blades suffer most compared to the the claw are the high toughness ones like the Wraithknight. In which case, the blades may not kill it outright, but they will tie it up through its next shooting phase which is a close second. Similar to the the haywire, these two codices have so many ways to deal with these targets such as grav and plasma that more versatility does not get us much. Domnius, Breachers, Destroyers, Fulgurites, Kastelans, Dragoons, Ballistarii, and Dunecrawlers are all just as versatile in killing vehicle and MC alike. And some MC units, like a unit of Fexes will not be brought down very well by the claws with their AP5. They simply have too many wounds and by the time you get out of combat with these kinds of units, your losses, if you win, will be grievous to the point of one or two stalkers left. But a unit of Fexes will fall on round two vs the blades and you only will have to face one round of combat with them.

 

With an army that has so many units very capable of killing both MCs and AVs, it is best to have as least one or two more specialized units that can do things like un-tarpit your knight and hide in total cover, yet threaten a huge chunk of the board because of dunestrider. 

 

I am terrible at math so can offer no mathematical basis for the reasoning here so someone else will need to do that, I am sure they already have somewhere.

[Tyriks]

Ok Terminus, just remember, you asked for this wall of text.

 

Consider this: If we only consider the Cult Mechanicus and Skitarii codices, so not even considering Knights, there are 14 other weapons available that are either Str 8+, Haywire, Armorbane, or Grav. If I were playing any other army except my Crons, haywire would be a good quality, but in the context of this army, more versatility into vehicle destruction is not needed at all. And what is that haywire is going to get you? In a typical situation, the best you will get is that you will assault a landraider, destroy it, and then be exposed to its occupants and the rest of you opponents army with your fragile stalkers to get shot off the board. On the other hand, with the blades you have the perfect weapon for the task. Your target will be different obviously, but the AP5 in the first turn is a great benefit. It will keep you from wiping out your target during your turn and switch to AP2 just in time for you to pass your opponents shooting phase safely in combat, yet with their large number of attacks, finish off the unit and be free again to charge in your next turn.

 

As for the benefit of the chordclaw, the chordclaw will surely help them more with monstrous creatures than the blades, but after the first round of combat, the distance between the two closes significantly. The AP2 will make up much of difference against all MCs except those with invulnerable saves. Even without the fleshbane, a unit of stalkers who assault can put enough wounds on an MC to being it down to close to it. If you do bring it down, with the claw or otherwise, you face the same scenario as above. And while you will sustain damage in Combat with an MC that denies both your Sv and your FNP, it is better than being shot off the map. So with either tool, your goal is to destroy the MC in question in the second round of combat (your opponent turn), so you can assault anew on your turn. The targets where the blades suffer most compared to the the claw are the high toughness ones like the Wraithknight. In which case, the blades may not kill it outright, but they will tie it up through its next shooting phase which is a close second. Similar to the the haywire, these two codices have so many ways to deal with these targets such as grav and plasma that more versatility does not get us much. Domnius, Breachers, Destroyers, Fulgurites, Kastelans, Dragoons, Ballistarii, and Dunecrawlers are all just as versatile in killing vehicle and MC alike. And some MC units, like a unit of Fexes will not be brought down very well by the claws with their AP5. They simply have too many wounds and by the time you get out of combat with these kinds of units, your losses, if you win, will be grievous to the point of one or two stalkers left. But a unit of Fexes will fall on round two vs the blades and you only will have to face one round of combat with them.

 

With an army that has so many units very capable of killing both MCs and AVs, it is best to have as least one or two more specialized units that can do things like un-tarpit your knight and hide in total cover, yet threaten a huge chunk of the board because of dunestrider. 

 

I am terrible at math so can offer no mathematical basis for the reasoning here so someone else will need to do that, I am sure they already have somewhere.

Even if no one else cares, I appreciate the rundown! Thanks!

[Dawnstrider]

I wouldn't say that no one cares, just that the collective opinion of my fellow Admech priesthood have decided one way, and I have gone the other. :) 

[Terminus]

See, this is where I disagree wholeheartedly. You see a unit that kills a Land Raider and then gets assaulted by the occupants, and thus recommend a unit that can't do anything to the Land Raider, so gets shot by the Land Raider and then assaulted by the occupants.  And if a 160-point unit is killing a ~260 point land raider, even if they all die, that's not enough for you?  What if they kill an Imperial Knight, would that be adequate?  Or is that still not good because they will die in the explosion?

 

AP5 is helpful?  If you're engaging stuff that dies to AP5, it doesn't even matter.  To use your own logic, there are a slew of other options for killing guardsmen.  And this argument doesn't even make sense when you consider that the razors and claws are also AP5.  You are literally giving up a fleshbane attack and the best grenades in the game, all just for +1S.  That +1S means that in the best case scenario of assaulting tactical marines OUTSIDE of cover (cuz you have no grenades and would otherwise attack at I1), with no overwatch casualties, 5 Ruststalkers with twin blades will inflict ~1.74 unsaved wounds where the claw/razor would inflict ~1.6 wounds. In all subsequent rounds, the math is identical.  And this doesn't even take into effect potential casualties from the thrown grenade.

 

My condolences, Magos, your theorem is rejected.  Your heresy, however, has been noted.

[Greyspell]

 

My condolences, Magos, your theorem is rejected.  Your heresy, however, has been noted.

 

Harsh yet hilarious.

 

I too desperately want the twin blades to work but the fact is that the numbers just don't add up. Really I feel that both load-outs should get the grenades and then you are just trading the fleshbane for +1 strength which is a reasonable choice.

[Lysere]

Short version of what Dawnstrider said:

 

AP5 is helpful because you aren't killing things in one round because doing so gets you shot off the board.

 

You also don't need them for killing things like Knights or land raiders because there are other options that can do so.

 

My thoughts:

 

For me its more a question of how many do you have. If I had a unit of ruststalkers on the table I'd say grenades would be better.

 

If you had multiple on the table then it would be better to mix it up a bit. Besides ruststalkers with the blades make a fantastic choice for dealing with things like centurions.

[Tyriks]

Besides ruststalkers with the blades make a fantastic choice for dealing with things like centurions.

What makes them good at that?

[Dawnstrider]

 

Besides ruststalkers with the blades make a fantastic choice for dealing with things like centurions.

What makes them good at that?

 

The +1 str makes them wound on 3s instead of 4s.

 

 

 

 

 

My condolences, Magos, your theorem is rejected.  Your heresy, however, has been noted.

 

Harsh yet hilarious.

 

I agree.

 

like I said, I know I am alone in my assessment of these loadouts.  I just think we have so many weapons that are overkill when used on MEQs and TEQs, that you are better off using them on the landraider and then assaulting whatever gets out with the stalkers then you are using the stalkers to open the box and then using the heavy weapons on the occupants. I confine my stalkers to MEQ, TEQ, and Horde hunting mostly and use the rest of my units to bring down the MCs and AVs. 

[Lysere]

 

Besides ruststalkers with the blades make a fantastic choice for dealing with things like centurions.

What makes them good at that?

Centurions are tough but woeful in combat so you get stuck in, do some damage, and then on the opponent's turn you still wound on 4s and simply ignore the armor save of those left. Then since it is now your turn they can run down something else.

 

This same principle applies to things like riptides as well.

[Tyriks]

 

 

Besides ruststalkers with the blades make a fantastic choice for dealing with things like centurions.

What makes them good at that?

 

The +1 str makes them wound on 3s instead of 4s.

 

But wouldn't the fleshbane be better, since it wounds on a 2?  Centurions are infantry so fleshbane works on them, right?

[Lysere]

The fleshbane is good but it's only for one attack. The idea is to do some damage in the first round, and remove what they have left in their turn so you don't get shot.

 

Also they wound on 4s in the second round. Furious charge is the first round only.

[Terminus]

And oh snap, I totally forgot about furious charge! Ignore the numbers above entirely, as they also shorted everyone by an attack.

 

So 5 double blade dudes charging will actually slice and dice 2.88 MEQ, whereas the chordclaw/razor dudes will kill 2.42. In subsequent rounds, the blades kill 5.28 and the claw/razor kill 4.825.  Against T5, charging twin blades deal 8.7 wounds before saves, while razor/claw does 7.355.  So the difference is a bit more significant.

 

But honestly, folks, it's not even the haywire that makes the grenades a must-have.  If they could have double blades and generic frag grenades they would be significantly more interesting.  You folks must play on empty tables. Ask the Genestealers how well initiative-based assault units work without assault grenades.  And don't be mistaken, they are definitely an initiative-based unit, because T3 means they don't like being hit first.  Honestly, for their cost, and looking at the Wulfen who are 30 points each and have 5s across half their stat line, they should be WS5 I5 T4.

 

Also, all the weapons have AP5 (and the grenade AP4), so I'm still not grasping the point of that argument.

 

Anyway, if I was building a Killclade, I'd make one unit double blades just for variety.

[Dawnstrider]

You are right about the AP5 bit, I shouldn't post when I am tires I guess, I was thinking the claw has a higher AP for some reason.  For reference, my tables are usually about 30 - 40% terrain. I do not know how that compares to other places, but peeps around here are fine with that.