UM second founding Chapters

[Frater Cornelius]

I am by no means an expert on how the UM Legion functioned and thus I have a question. UM sported by far the greatest amount of Successor Chapters during the second founding, right? How come they ended up being so diverse? I always viewed most of the UM Legion being conform or is that not the way it worked? Did they absort different cultures when operating independently? Or were the Successor all the same and only started to diverge centuries after the second founding?

[Dizzyeye01]

Well there's a few reasons as to how the second founding chapters became so divergent from each other can be due to the chapters' homeworld having a cultural impact on the chapter. Along with this those marines who had survived the Horus Heresy likely had their own specialization that they brought with them to the chapter which lead to the recruits learning from the veterans. That and the experiences that the chapter faces will likely be different from the Ultramarines meaning that they will be affected differently by different outcomes.

[Legatus]

UM sported by far the greatest amount of Successor Chapters during the second founding, right? How come they ended up being so diverse?

 

Are they? Doctrinally, pretty much all the Second Founding Successors of the Ultramarines closely follow the Codex Astartes.

 

Culturally, a Chapter will be influenced by it's home world or emergent traditions in case of fleet based Chapters. Ultramarines of M36 are still recruited from Ultramar, so would have experienced Ultramar culture when growing up themselves. For successors living outside of Ultramar, any cultural traditions originally held within the Ultramarines Legion would be merely taught to them, while they themselves would have experienced an entirely different culture on their own homeworld.

[Brother Captain Ed]

I don't recall chapter and verse off the top of my head, but I thought the Second Founding chapters (that survive) are pretty uniform in adhering to the Ultramarine tradition.

 

It's the later foundings, often done with Ultramarine geneseed, without the continuity of tradition and institutional memory of the Legion that vary in practice, outlook, and temperament. 

[Seahawk]

It's the same reason that multiple kids from the same parents grow up and can be quite different from each other. The successor chapters are no longer "living at home" (Macragge) and are forging their own path, so despite the years of guidance (doctrine) they end up being different because of their separate experiences and adventures.

[shandwen]

From the fluff they claim most UM successor chapters hold very closely with the codex, but at that same time there is a good chqnce that not all who claim to be ultramarines were actually ultramarines. Perhaps as well some of the specialization happened post 31k, when operational changes slowly became new takes on basic training. (Even thoigh with a heavy dose of codex... not too much would actually change).

[phoenix01]

There is, of course, the black sheep of the Ultramarines family, A.K.A. the Mortifactors.

[Legatus]

The Mortifactors are described as Codex adherent. Though they somwhow diverge from the Codex Astartes... somehow? Apparently in their culture or heraldry?

 

They were made up by Graham "I hate the Codex Astartes" McNeill for his Uriel Ventris series (presumably to further spite the Codex Astartes and to ridicule the Ultramarines' obsession with it), and have about the same official status as a 2nd Founding Chapter of the Ultramarines as the Soul Drinkers have as a 2nd Founding Chapter of the Imperial Fists, that is, no Space Marine Codex has ever acknowledged them. While the 6th and 7th Edition Codices to mention them, they are not listed among the few named Ultramarines Chapters of the 2nd Founding.

[Brother Tyler]

Just a note as we continue this discussion: the topic is about why there is variation among the various Successors of the Ultramarines Legion. It's not about individual hobbyists' views of the current lore and why we choose to either accept or reject individual elements of the lore. Let's stay on topic.

The reasons others have cited above (e.g., physical separation from Macragge, temporal separation from the time of the 2nd Founding, unique battle experiences, etc.) are spot on. So my response will focus on other areas that should also be considered.

Truthfully, the Primogenitors have never been portrayed as being absolutely uniform in their practices. While earlier lore (e.g., 2nd edition Codex: Ultramarines) described them as being largely alike in that they all adhered to the Codex Astartes, there have always been small differences here and there. At a bare minimum, variations in markings have always been presented. While many Primogenitors following practices similar to those of the Ultramarines Chapter (albeit, sometimes using different colors), some of the Primogenitors used alternate schemes.

Beyond the cosmetic, and in many ways negligible, effects of using alternate heraldic schemes, some degree of difference in attitude towards Codex adherence has always been presented. The Black Consuls, for example, were described in 2nd edition as being fanatical in their adherence to the Codex Astartes. Since this was worth mentioning in the lore, the implication is that other Chapters were less fanatical in their approach (though none of the Primogenitors at that time were ever described as being cavalier or even rebellious in their views on Codex adherence).

Another example of a Primogenitor that has veered away from the model of the Ultramarines is the Silver Skulls. While 2nd edition lore on this Chapter was sparse, we've seen that lore filled in over the years. Many elements of that Chapter's lore largely correspond to what many players would understand and accept as Codex adherence, but there are a number of very important elements that clearly distinguish the Silver Skulls Chapter from the Ultramarines Chapter. These elements don't make them "better" or "worse" than the Ultramarines, only different. The source of these changes and variations from the "norm" of the Ultramarines is the Silver Skulls' unique experiences, including battle history, recruitment pool and methods, etc.

With the additions to and evolution of the lore, we've seen the entire 2nd Founding, including the Primogenitors, grow. Whether these are inconsistencies or ret-cons may be debated, but the fact remains that the limited number of 2nd Founding Successors as described in the 2nd edition lore is no longer the end-all be-all. Whether we like it or not, the simple fact is that the limited information we have only tells us part of the story.

Something else to consider is the fact that the Codex Astartes was a later addition to the Ultramarines Legion. While much of its guidance was a result of extant Legion doctrine, the lore has long provided for other elements being drawn from external sources (e.g., doctrine of other Legions). It's quite likely that some of the Successors, while ostensibly adhering to the principles of the Codex Astartes, may have reverted in their views, going back to the "old ways" where the "new ways" of the Codex Astartes didn't correspond with their own experiences. Keep in mind that the Adeptus Astartes remain imperfect human beings (albeit, surgically and psychologically enhanced for war). If some of the Adeptus Astartes leaders trained by Roboute Guilliman couldn't wrap their heads around the Codex Astartes as it was being put into practice within the Legion, it would be understandable for later generations of Adeptus Astartes to potentially fail in their efforts to fully comprehend the lessons of that tome. Alternately, they may have simply applied the teachings differently, or even come to similar outcomes through different methods.

There has never been absolute conformity to the Codex Astartes, even among those that adhere to its dictates. In truth, there probably is no such thing as absolute conformity.

Practically speaking, it would be ridiculous to think that the Primogenitors (whether they number only twenty-something or if there are many more) would remain the same as they were when they first split off from the Legion. There is no "perfect" organization for war, and no army can ever remain the same over time. All combat units evolve over time, for a variety of reasons. Those that don't become outclassed by others that do (object lesson: the Spartans). Even without the absolute necessity for a combat unit to evolve in order to emerge successful in combat, cultural changes and unique experiences will drive changes within the organization. This is like character development in a story, but applied to organizations in our fictional game universe over a vast period of time. The scope of that time, too, would make it ridiculous to think that organization X remains identical in M41 to itself in M32. In fact, one of the core principles of the game universe is that the Imperium of M41 is a pale shadow of itself at the height of the Great Crusade. Things have changed (in many ways, for the worse). All Chapters, even the Ultramarines, have evolved over time.

This shows a level of sophistication in the lore that helps to enrich it.

[Frater Cornelius]

But were there differences before the second founding? Different companies having different approaches and possibly divergent colour schemes?

[Aqui]

But were there differences before the second founding? Different companies having different approaches and possibly divergent colour schemes?

That's something I think that we'll see as 30K is explored more and more. Now that we know specific details of what happened (Calth etc), then the effects will show up to a lesser or greater degree, depending on the elements that make the Second Founding successors. The Second Founding Chapters of Rogue Trader won't necessarily be the same as the ones we (re)learn about now.

[Legatus]

The concept of the "Second Founding" was made up only nearing the end of Rogue Trader. The full list of who were "First Founding" Chapters was only provided in 2nd Edition. The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines named 12 Second Founding Chapters for the Ultramarines. The 7th Edition Codex Space Marines only lists 8 of them. This is not "Rogue Trader lore".

[Aqui]

The concept of the "Second Founding" was made up only nearing the end of Rogue Trader. The full list of who were "First Founding" Chapters was only provided in 2nd Edition. The 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines named 12 Second Founding Chapters for the Ultramarines. The 7th Edition Codex Space Marines only lists 8 of them. This is not "Rogue Trader lore".

An oversight on my part. Second Edition.

[Vodunius]

The concept of the 2nd Founding came in just before the half-way mark: "During the Horus Heresy, Space Marine chapters are of much greater size than those formed afterwards out of their shattered remnants." WD126, June 1990 ~ RT was released October 1987, 2nd edition October 1993

 

They just never had any inclination to name any until second edition. 

 

But were there differences before the second founding? Different companies having different approaches and possibly divergent colour schemes?

 

Yes to the former, though I'm not aware of any evidence for the latter. Tempest mentions two noteworthy deviances: the 4th Chapter (Aurorans) who operated five times the number of armoured vehicles as a standard Chapter, and the 22nd 'Nemesis' Chapter which specialised in Destroyers and other nasty weapons of Exterminatus. 

[Frater Cornelius]

The concept of the 2nd Founding came in just before the half-way mark: "During the Horus Heresy, Space Marine chapters are of much greater size than those formed afterwards out of their shattered remnants." WD126, June 1990 ~ RT was released October 1987, 2nd edition October 1993

 

They just never had any inclination to name any until second edition.

 

 

But were there differences before the second founding? Different companies having different approaches and possibly divergent colour schemes?

Yes to the former, though I'm not aware of any evidence for the latter. Tempest mentions two noteworthy deviances: the 4th Chapter (Aurorans) who operated five times the number of armoured vehicles as a standard Chapter, and the 22nd 'Nemesis' Chapter which specialised in Destroyers and other nasty weapons of Exterminatus.

The answer to the divergent colout schemes has been found in the AoD section. The Chapter that would later become the Novamarines changed their scheme to fit their Chapter Master's personal heraldry. Apparently, this wasn't an isolated case either. Most people say that as long as there was a legitimate reason and you still sported the Ultima, then different colours were fair game.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

The character of a later Founding Chapter would be formed from, as said earlier, the Founding members and their experiences in the galaxy over time. The Successors of Dorn are wildly different and is usually attributed to the personalities of the Captains/Chapter Masters who founded their respective Space Marine Chapter; Black Templars are zealous like Siggy, Crimson Fists are able to tactically withdraw without self-inflicted brain aneurysms like Pollux, Excorciators are expected to NEVER withdraw from a fight unless it is a walk home crowned in victory like extra stubborn Imperial Fists.

      Add in the environmental and experience stuff like the Flesh Tearers Deathworld shaping their culture, the Endless Crusade of the Templars, recruitment practices of all Chapters or any other number of Chapter shaking events like Tyranids invading Macragge or Orks rolling Yahtzee on the scatter dice versus the Crimson Fists which lead to changes in doctrine, practice and the essence of the Chapter. Even the differences in culture of the Pre-Primarch Terran Marines versus those of preferred recruitment base in Post-Primarch times would make a huge difference.

 

How could a Third Founding Chapter like the Ultras take part in the Second Founding anyways? ;)