Has the heresy setting changed?

[GhostMalone]

Now this is in no way a troll or a negative gripe but simply a question;

 

Has the Horus Heresy started to turn into 40k nonsense both table top wise fluff wise and story wise?

 

Now I ask this because I personally am losing my love with the heresy.

Previously I never faulted the setting but lately I'm becoming disillusioned with the setting, since BaC and the imperium secundus storyline and the last few Forge World releases I feel that the setting is starting to creep into 40k nonsensical setting.

 

That is per fluff we've crept away from the actual climatic civil war and the countless fronts that the imperium is fighting wars on, the word bearers are pretty much everywhere behind every shenanigan and super Weapons and pointless fluff fights are happening between primarchs that we know aren't going to change anything (Kurze in the past 9 or so books)

 

On the table top were starting to see power creep and certain armies trending (I'm personally hoping book 6 corrects some in balance and makes certain units ie; Justaerin Rampagers despoilers etc worth running)

 

And Forge World (now don't shoot me) seems to just mass producing some pretty average units of late, now I personally am putting it down to cad designs which have made my dislike come out, if you look at the first couple of hand sculpted primarchs Angron Lorgar ferrus they seem to have a more realistic fit into the setting then some of the later designs garro Corax zardu layak (sp?)

 

Now I personally have always supported the heresy and Forge World to the point of fanboyism but now even my fiancé seems worried that I'm disillusioned with the thing I've filled rooms up with full of junk.

 

Now please don't take this negatively this is simply my opinion and im wondering if it's me or has the setting started to drift from our original destination

[Marshal Loss]

I don't know about Black Library, as I've been dissatisfied with their handling of the narrative for years now, but I think FW's custodianship remains as brilliant as ever. 30k still feels distinct from 40k in terms of the quality of the models, narrative and gameplay to me.

 

When you read books like Conquest, the scale of the war is larger and more realistic than ever.

[Corswain]

I don't know about Black Library, as I've been dissatisfied with their handling of the narrative for years now, but I think FW's custodianship remains as brilliant as ever. 30k still feels distinct from 40k in terms of the quality of the models, narrative and gameplay to me.

 

When you read books like Conquest, the scale of the war is larger and more realistic than ever.

Totally agree! BL is very hit or miss but FW is still going strong.

 

I think a lot of people are going through that "honeymoon's over" phase with the Heresy but it'll come back. :)

[Lord Blackwood]

I can understand where you  are coming from.  I disagree but I certainly can understand it. 

30k went from  a thing that only a few folks round me could afford to enjoy to a more widely played and enjoyed hobby due to B@C  it did feel like it cheapened  Cataphractii  armor a little but stomping people with their B@C sets and watching people build up legions because of the love for said legion as opposed to the specific rules has been a blast in my parts. 

The fluffs progression is certainly  a cause for concern but  I think thats a price we are paying for the setting being as sucessful as it is. If its making money GW and FW  will figure that they should produce more stuff for it. I mean I read wolf king and the only complaint  I had was that  I wanted more.  Stuff like Pharos and the Imperium secundus arc has by and large been extremely dull. I think things will start to feel better again when we move away from that. But then the other day at work I  listened to Grey Talon a tiny little shattered legion story involving  Iron Hands and White Scars and I went  " man this is hype "   and I  dont even care for scars or Iron hands.   My point being that theres gems in  there  but theres also a lot of trash. And .... some things that just should not be ( IM  LOOKIN  AT YOU DEATHFIRE  , VULKEN LIFES !!!  IT IS ALSO A HAMMER !!! )   

I think your definitely entitled to feel the way you feel but we will have a new book  and some information soon  maybe that will help? I  aint inside yer head but I can certainly suggest toughing it out till  the next wave of info hits us then  maybe taking a hard look about things then ?  Just suggesting and in no way trying to be disrespectful. 

I do know that personally im extremely hype , all 8 of my imperial knights are legal ,  my imperial fists are reaching a point closed to finished , Im enjoying Zone Mortalis ( blood in the void )  and  I am just straight up not playing 40k  for the sake of playing HH.  

Best of luck in any decision you  do end up going with  Kuraman!  ( yeaaaaa )  Would suck to lose a cool guy like you  due to burnout tho. 

[GhostMalone]

I give that the black books are amazing they're practically the only thing truly worth my attention currently, yet I feel the scale is lost now it's no longer present and all of a sudden we have only primarchs and characters focused on.

 

There's no emphasis on areas like vostroya or miridian or anything like that, they were all present malitia and auxiliary units where waging war everywhere yet we get imperium secundus where every man and his pet dog has ended up, no Legionaries protecting the imperium or Terra no they all wind up in ultamar I get the role they wanted it to play but it actually hasn't even done much to the story, look at Vulkan was his story arc really needed it had so much potential but flopped and now it's cannon it's the same with most arcs they weren't needed to flesh out the story and setting

[Lord Blackwood]

Hopefully  Master of Mankind will  help address that. 

[GhostMalone]

But this is the most frustrating point that I have to hold out for hope that it corrects itself out, the heresy never needed that before especially for me.

 

We get amazing pieces like the Mastodon Medusan Immortals and the like then we get complete :cuss (such as the entire Raven Guard line; so much lost potential thanks to CAD)

 

Now my issue stems from a dislike from past experiences trying to sell the heresy to people; yet some real atrocious :cuss like imperium secundus pulls people in. Now I've read every single book listened to every audio drama brought all the material and have devoured it yet now I feel that they are losing the ability to justify some actions on BL account. Remember when Aurelian crashed the system so they released a gold and silver limited edition now we have books that are LE still available a month after release.

 

I know a company is driven by sales etc but losing touch on a setting older than myself seems to be a constant for GW corporate.

 

Book 4 Conquest was amazing and im hoping book 6 will be the along the same lines I just would like us to move into civil war not just 3 events like ultamar Prospero and istvaan

[Lord Blackwood]

Prospero is something I am very much looking forward to tho.  I think all the wolf players are.  There is a certain hunger for the fleshing out of the legion that appeals to you ya know  and the best place to do that is their most infamous battle. Then again  there was that imperial fists battle from  Book 3 with the guys who deafened themselves to do what needed to be done that was super epic as well.  I dont think Prospero will drag the way  Imp Sec has dragged.  I think  it will be more akin to covered well in the single Blackbook and then maybe given the Tallaran Treatment ( and anyone who skipped tallaran and angel exterminatus is realllllly missing out )  

Infact the Tallaran series sorta  adresses on of yer issues just a bit 

I dunno I  wouldnt go so far as to say  yer making a mountain out of a molehill cause yer not  , I think  yer just a bit bothered by something that we both know just needs to happen. GW and FW need to milk the HH  its making  them too much money for them not to. 


as a side note I  dont really dislike the RG line all that much  but thats neither here nor there. 

[GhostMalone]

Tallaran is amazing it's my favourite duo and gives me that glimmer of hope that they will continue to expand the story, stories of last stands misdirection and Genocide on a galactic scale are needed.

 

Now I want Prospero as book 7 so we can expand the setting and armies available I'm positive it will be great but what I don't want is pretty simple;

 

I don't want the black books to be the only decent account of the heresy, im all for building campaigns characters relics new RoW but I also want us to show other armies in other war zones than the big names.

 

Look at Port maw the Segmentum Obscurus and places like that for inspiration.

 

Imagine a necromancy book where it was all based on multi level urban combat etc there's so much more they could do and adapt the setting to

[helterskelter]

What do you class civil war as? All those 3 events are.

Plus the raven guard stuff is nice, maybe some bits aren't great, but FW are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

The problem with us geeks and needs are that we're rarely satisfied creatures.

Those who are fans of yet unreleased legions want their stuff to be out now, people with legion rules and special units want their shinies to be released so they can play with them. FW aren't massive and have a planets worth of us to design models and rules for.

Can't tell everyone to quit their bitching and be patient now. Popularity of this has forced them to move probably a little faster than they want, hence team GW making Calth which has lifted certain pressures. But. They still need to maintain pace and not everything is going to be 110% and not everyone will like it. Same for BL. Plus you can blame the group meetings for some stuff because ideas and directions go through there. And then the editors who OKs the stories.

So really blaming the writers in their entirety for things isn't that cool either. Though attitudes to the fan base vary.

[GhostMalone]

Fair point and I agree on many points with you, it's just the same old issue for me I feel like the grim dark is gone there's no more real suspense in the stories or models, I don't know how to explain what I'm feeling...

 

Do you remember in Galaxy In Flames when Loken beaten on the ground and the final shots are launched from orbit.

 

Or lucius misdirection the other EC Captain into slaughtering 20 loyalists before turning on him and opening the path for the Traitors to break through.

 

or finding a Rememberencer impaled into his own statue and his love killing herself on the same sword.

 

or argel tals sudden death and Khârns satisfying justice

 

The shame of the blood angels slaughtering the wolves sent to watch them and the remorse felt after a no name Apothecary gives his life to save sanguinius.

 

Those are the moments I feel are lost to the heresy and I feel lately the models released are losing that reflection that the Red Butchers Kakophoni Medusan Immortals Gal Vorbak etc represent.

 

Leaving BL out of the mix I feel the setting is moving past the point of galactic civil war.

[GhostMalone]

I just feel the moments that are captivating from the heresy are now rushed for our sake, I'd rather wait for quality then quantity and I feel that the problem is as you stated that people are impatient and self centerd when this setting should be the product of talented people and not tarnished due to impatience on the consumers part.

 

Remember when we were told they're would never be a primarch model or game and all we had was maybe 2-3 books released a year in paperback.

 

If rushing to meet demand is going to impact so highly on the setting I'd rather not rush as ive still got a good 50 years to invest into my hobby

[helterskelter]

I also remember fulgrim fondling the corpses afterwards ;)

I do see where you are coming from, don't get me wrong, I think the problem is they're trying to flesh out things we didn't know about, or had minimal interest in, to try and get us more interested. And in most cases it just isn't really working.

I also think models wise, there's gonna be some stuff coming out soon that will have had people occupied for a long time, and you are probably going to see a return to form very soon.

For now though we have to plod through the legion rush, once all 18 have the basic kits, special stuff will start to have a marked increase in quality

[GhostMalone]

I know the general consensus is to wait it out but I'm a stubborn old prick and can't help myself, I just would like to see more emphasis on the setting rather than the individuals within the setting.

 

I look forward to book 6 and the heresy weekender I'm just hoping it's another stellar weekend. After all us in the bottom of the world await the word of what's new to play with

[Lord Blackwood]

Not gonna lie I  finished a Leviathan dreadnought today a unit i know isint even gonna be that good ( outside of murdering people and peoples contemptors in ships )  and im so hype I cant sleep.  

Gotta  enjoy the little things bro ,  the little things 

[depthcharge12]

I think it might be due to a slow period as we haven't gotten a book since last spring time. Hopefully this book being released in a week will change your mind :)

 

I honestly am a bit ticked at BL though because they started out really strong....and then petered out. Thank God we've finally left Isstvaan (see my earlier rants), and if I see another one, I will personally mail my hand to Nottingham to slap all of them :no:

 

But honestly, it feels like they're dragging their feet when we still have like 4 years of the heresy left. Where is a Death Gaurd story (front to back a DG story not from Mortarion's perspective)? Where is a good Dark Angels storyline as we've had dang near every author touch them? What's going on with the TS?

 

We will see a bunch of books eventually (previewed like a couple months ago), but outside of Chris Wright, we don't really have a clue what's going on. I really liked Sotha, but it just didn't have that epic scale that rang true in Fulgrim, False Gods, or Betrayer.

 

One last little nitpick, and it is extremely petty, believe you me, but I don't like the direction the art on the BL books have been lately. Something just rubs me wrong that they're using what looks like all the latest released models on the cover of the books. It still looks good, but it feels hollow. Like it lacks spirit compared to the cover of Horus Rising, Descent of Angels, or the First Heretic. That's a personal preference but the books they're about to release look like "blue marines walking away shooting at green and red marines." It just lacks that original spirit and beautiful artwork that the first books had.

 

 

Or maybe I'm just a grumpy old curmudgeon.

[Theredknight]

I think I agree with the b@c set bringing some 40k mentality into it. Before that there wasn't as many people trying to break the rules, especially in here. But that's going to happen as the gaming population expands.

It's such a Good value set you can't fault it, but those players won't generally invest in the rest of the goodies you need to make effective lists.

So let them try, it doesn't bother me, I don't play with them.

That being said, it gives those who wanted a chance to spend money on them but judged the rank and file to be expensive (true) to get into it.

Throne of skulls is an example of it, sure you had the one or two lists that were tough, but on the whole people play to the fluff, and respect that.

 

As for the fw rules, I have passed judgement in how the first legions are weaker, but I'm definitely willing to see what book 6 has to offer on that front. I really hope fw listen to their fan base (I think they do) on points like ec etc. Even the mode designers hated the kakophoni rules.

 

As for prospero, I don't care if it takes another year or whatever, I'm sure it will be a cracking book, and worth the wait.

I will wait for my warrior sorcerers to be released and then take on a new legion with new tactics.

If sangy turns up first however.. I may be getting 2 new red legions..

[Caillum]

I'm a big fan of the Horus Heresy in all its forms, so I couldn't disagree more Kurama.

 

Forge World - the quality of their books is spectacular! They are so evocative of the the Heresy theme! The images, the stories, the rules - all great. Yes, they have some problems with rules-writing clarity, but I can sort out any peculiarities in my meta. As for power creep, I feel this is an unavoidable aspect of the game maturing - more Legions, more units & more Rites of War was always going to change the meta. I have faith that Forge World will correct this with Book 6 and the updated Red Books.

 

Betrayal at Calth - I know some people are worried that this is 'the beginning of the end', but I'm a glass-half-full kinda guy, and I think that BaC is the best thing that's ever happened to the Heresy community! The single overriding problem with starting a 30k army has been price, and BaC has alleviated this massively. Some "expansions" for it will hopefully get more options for those without massive budgets. More people playing is not a bad thing, especially when the game doesn't promote a "buy this while the rules are still good" attitude.

 

Black Library - I've read nearly all the novels to date and like all series, there is good, bad and average ones. The one thing that was annoying me was the limited edition books (like 'Sedition's Gate') but they seem to have made a change with this, giving eBook options for the latest ones. They also have a massive task trying to tell the whole Heresy story, which I think is much bigger than anyone expected it to be! There's so many interweaving plots, subtle mentionings and backstory to cover! They were never going to tell the whole story, about 18 Legions, in a dozen books.

 

Have faith brother! For the Emperor! :)

[Lord Blackwood]

How far is Perth from Redmond , you seem like the sort of person I should play a game of 30k with 

[Ishagu]

You feel emptiness because none of the stories matter in the slightest anymore.

 

The allure of the Heresy was the mysticism of the period, the lost age, the myth and the technology from a better past where Gods walked amongst mortals.

The more details we get, the more of the myth is lost. More and more books are nothing more than a few cool battles that leave no impact on the greater outcome. What's worse is that the more we know about the setting and characters, the more some of the decisions made by said characters become non-sensical and inconsistent.

 

As for FW, the quality of models is fantastic, and the rules are interesting and enjoyable.

 

 

...It's funny, in 40k lore is my main driving force, in 30k it's simply the models and a more grounded game!

[Remus Ventanus.]

My only issue is BL. I found every novel after betrayer to be really bad. To many comic book super hero moments that shouldn't be in this setting

[Terminus]

You feel emptiness because none of the stories matter in the slightest anymore.

 

The allure of the Heresy was the mysticism of the period, the lost age, the myth and the technology from a better past where Gods walked amongst mortals.

The more details we get, the more of the myth is lost. More and more books are nothing more than a few cool battles that leave no impact on the greater outcome. What's worse is that the more we know about the setting and characters, the more some of the decisions made by said characters become non-sensical and inconsistent.

 

As for FW, the quality of models is fantastic, and the rules are interesting and enjoyable.

 

 

...It's funny, in 40k lore is my main driving force, in 30k it's simply the models and a more grounded game!

Uh, 40K lore is giving us Centurions, Thunderwolf cavalry, and werewolves with magic swords. Has the reign of Matt Ward been so quickly forgotten?

[Ishagu]

 

 

You feel emptiness because none of the stories matter in the slightest anymore.

 

The allure of the Heresy was the mysticism of the period, the lost age, the myth and the technology from a better past where Gods walked amongst mortals.

The more details we get, the more of the myth is lost. More and more books are nothing more than a few cool battles that leave no impact on the greater outcome. What's worse is that the more we know about the setting and characters, the more some of the decisions made by said characters become non-sensical and inconsistent.

 

As for FW, the quality of models is fantastic, and the rules are interesting and enjoyable.

 

 

...It's funny, in 40k lore is my main driving force, in 30k it's simply the models and a more grounded game!

Uh, 40K lore is giving us Centurions, Thunderwolf cavalry, and werewolves with magic swords. Has the reign of Matt Ward been so quickly forgotten?

Outside of the tabletop, the 40k lore is more consistent, but that's a discussion for another time.

 

The general 40k lore is brilliant, and the reason we're all here, a few questionable model designs aside...

 

PS: I love Centurions :-P

[depthcharge12]

 

You feel emptiness because none of the stories matter in the slightest anymore.

The allure of the Heresy was the mysticism of the period, the lost age, the myth and the technology from a better past where Gods walked amongst mortals.

The more details we get, the more of the myth is lost. More and more books are nothing more than a few cool battles that leave no impact on the greater outcome. What's worse is that the more we know about the setting and characters, the more some of the decisions made by said characters become non-sensical and inconsistent.

As for FW, the quality of models is fantastic, and the rules are interesting and enjoyable.

...It's funny, in 40k lore is my main driving force, in 30k it's simply the models and a more grounded game!

 

Uh, 40K lore is giving us Centurions, Thunderwolf cavalry, and werewolves with magic swords. Has the reign of Matt Ward been so quickly forgotten?

I miss his rules and units, but hate his fluff.

[GhostMalone]

And good morning Kurama, so where to pick up so some great points been thrown out once again love getting other perspectives to level out my nerd rage.

 

So the biggest one that blew my mind was ishagu and I think he's figured out what I couldn't put In to words. the heresy has list it's mysticism, I personally never wanted first hand accounts from the primarchs I wanted to see the heresy through the eyes of the women the children and the lowest ranked Marines, I personally didn't want to see inside a Gods mind as how are we able to replicate the complex thought processes that said individual goes through. The best parts where when we got a glimpse into them and felt the awe that most feel in their presence.

 

And in saying that now we are unfortunately treating characters like Guilliman Vulkan and the like as nothing more than the likes of uriel ventis.

 

Now also in saying this I know some people will disagree and be like your being unreasonable blah blah blah

 

http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y524/Taron_James_Beer/Mobile%20Uploads/vJDwubR-3DmQDAWKy-ijow9cfs9rNcPYpJ5ACVshoSf-Ho4tHT7ErsgTDyRhUlDvTu_TDQSClZsbi22CD6xZh2Y_nV-4G7GhjmZLTgZrdvtlPXnIrww390-h250-_zpsrqlclmwq.gif

 

but I feel the schism and brother fighting brother aspect has been lost, rarely we see anything like that anymore.

 

And also I believe it's the quality of the hobbyists that affect my feelings, here on the B&C we have some amazing hobbyists and we're all like minded but in the real world against real local hobbyists the unpainted Unbased and uneducated rear they're heads and cause me such grief with their lack of passion