Has the heresy setting changed?

[Terminus]

I agree with that in some regard.  That's what is so eye-roll inducing about Gav Thorpe's work, where Corax is emo moping about like a teenager.

 

On the other hand, the thought processes of gods do not have to be mysterious. Look at the wide ranks of gods and demi-gods of the Greeks and Norsemen who are basically humans with over-exaggerated personality twists and traits.  And that's essentially what the Primarchs are, especially if you abide by the common theory that they each received some aspect of the Emperor's mass-personality.

[GhostMalone]

Which in turn is fair enough if you are to agree that they are bound by traditional mythos, yet still for characters such as the primarchs there truly is no Tactical sense in some of their actions even by taking the human elements into account, so far I feel only Perturabo has been portrayed well in the fact he's actually a tactician in how he's portrayed and an engineer that although he's been suited still held to some notion of loyalty.

 

Most other traitors are "for reasons" very weak in their motivations other than spite misdirection etc now I'm not saying the manipulation of the human condition isn't a strong enough reason to be turned but surely it was a safer more realistic approach to stay away from such a in depth thought process for the story.

 

Having a basis like betrayal tyranny oppression etc for turning Traitor is much more easy to make work than delving to far into the psyche of those characters and then as the fan base we find (to an extent) fault with such childish excuses

[Terminus]

It could have been done, they just needed better writers.  I am not sure what was more poorly executed, Horus's about-face or Anakin Skywalker's.

[Kriegsmacht]

At least Anakin was being influenced by Palpatine over time in the third movie and other sources that took place beforehand. Horus was with Erebus what? Five minutes during that dream sequence? That was all that was needed to turn.

 

 

EDit: forgot to put something in

[GhostMalone]

But without getting to off topic let's not drag star wars into this, honestly though I'd love to rekindle my passion for the setting I'm just hoping that we don't get dragged to much longer through this period of rushing the other legions.

 

I understand they want to have all 18 legions available but the individual qualities of said legions shouldn't be jeopardized for a few impatient few.

 

I'd much rather a full book first dedicated to each Legion like the original intentions were than this generic stuff to stem the tide of nerd rage.

 

I personally have given up on the Legiones Astrates except for the xvth due to a project commitment with my brother and have also decided that I'd rather focus on the under represented Imperial Malitia as they are the ones that aren't receiving the fluff representation in the narrative

[Athrawes]

I honestly don't understand the premise of this thread. On the one one hand Kurama, you're saying FW are rushing the Legions out and quality is being lost from the heresy setting. But I just see how that is true. With the release of book 6 we are only getting the Legion Astartes Rules for 3 of the yet to be released Legions, each of those legions are still in the pipeline and will be getting their own epic campaign books, with futures guaranteed down the line.

 

Rushing the Legions? FW have slowed down their pace, and have started releasing books in between the new legion releases to widen the scope of the Heresy, books like conquest and now retribution. 

 

If your worried about the grim darkness, did you read Tempest? the Last new legion centric FW HH book? the tragedy and darkness of the slaughter at Calth was palpable.

 

I'm not trying to attack you, but I cannot see anything to suggest FW is rushing out the Legions. The only possible evidence would be that they created upgrade packs for DA, BA and WS alongside TS so that people who are interested in those armies can collect a core force before their chosen legion gets done in it's own book.  How does making upgrade sets available alongside Legiones Astartes rules jeopardize the quality of these Legions?

 

And if you're talking about the model quality, did you see the White Scars upgrades? Some of the best if not the best that FW have made for any legion?

 

To sum up, 

 

NO. 

 

The setting is going on stronger and with more depth and quality than ever.

[GhostMalone]

Fair enough and I can see your point, but as ive said it's a mixture of things that over a long and slow Build up have impacted my hobby. I'm not attacking anyone I'm just trying to find out what other people are seeing.

 

As I stated it's my personal opinion that some things "feel" rushed and that I once again "feel" like we are losing the full scope of the heresy. I can not fault books 1-5 and they are the only source of scope I feel we have left.

 

Modelling wise I don't personally like the CAD designed units over the original sculpted units and ive felt that they are rushing to a degree to please everyone rather than waiting for said legions turn (after all istvaan was the fuse that lit the heresy and we had over half the legions present by istvaan v)

 

Fluff wise from BL viewpoint I feel that pointless story arcs aren't going to provide much more.

 

Now once again it's my own opinion I just wanted to see what the consensus is on the setting and the way the narrative is progressing

[Marshal Loss]

I don't think it's rushing when they give us basic Legion rules, upgrade kits and Rites of War for people that have already been waiting for 3.5 years. It's not like they are trying to cram in all of their lore into Book 6.

[Dantay VI]

Yes and no.

Yes because black library are making a cack handed job of the heresy with limited edition novellas and now novellettes. Overpriced limited edition stuf which then links in to the main novels. You then feel like you are missing bits and getting half a story.

 

No because I am classed as one of the impatient few, but I have learned that Fw will do Wolves when they are ready. I am happy for that.

Their books are ace. And the minis are mindblowing. Sometimes I wish theyd stop making new stuff and go back to complete some of the missing legion stuff but they have to keep some momentum going.

 

Maybe. Because so far too much time has been wasted on the footnote which is Imperium Secundus. Almost like the bl & fw team have creators block and dont know where to go next so we keep getting the same Ultramar sector stuff.

This needs to move on stat, there is much more to the heresy to uncover.

[1000 Sons]

Through black library, the setting has changed greatly.  With fw I think they have stayed level.

 

Black library have a big demand for more HH books, but at the same time cannot finish the Heresy storyline before fw does the model range.  They did the early events like horus' fall, prospero, betrayer, blood angels on the demon world, corax, isstvan in one or two books.  Those stories had lots of things happening and were crammed with cool moments, now when they are trying to extend the heresy story we have 3-4 book arcs that used to be done in 1 and there is so much filler the urgency of racing back to terra, or delay the warmaster has dissipated.

 

I think there is also a big fear with gw on what happens when the HH story arc ends.  Will the momentum of 30k models sales start drying up like lord of the rings did when the movies stopped ?  I personally don't see us getting to the battle of terra until sales in 30k start to fall, as long as the game is selling, why stop putting fuel on the fire.

[Terminus]

I'd much rather a full book first dedicated to each Legion like the original intentions were than this generic stuff to stem the tide of nerd rage.

That will never happen, there is not enough deviation between the Legions to have them each get their separate book, unless you want it to be like that Iyanden supplement that's like 95% fluff.

[Luna707]

I think there may be some confusion with the words "quality" and "direction" here. I can't speak for the BL stuff as I have only read the first three novels but on the FW side of things I would argue that the Quality is just as good as it has always been but they have made choices in art Direction that some people don't enjoy.

Let me illustrate this by first talking about quality. The Cataphractii legs produced by FW are more detailed than those made by GW in the BaC set. You can see this in the space behind the knee pads, FW's have an actual cavity and defined portion where the knee pad ends while GW's just kind of melt into the thigh plate. That's quality and FW far outclasses GW in this category.

 

Now for art direction. FW's Corax is of the same quality as Angron or Ferrus (FW has produced these miniatures to the same caliber of detail) however they made certain artistic choices that many people don't necessarily like. Corax and the Dark Furies are not as festooned with bling as we might expect and on top of that many fans have been upset with Corax's face, hair, and pose. I believe these are not gripes in quality but instead complaints in art direction. Now look at the Atrapos. Once again that is a new model of the same quality as everything else but people generally like the art direction more so than Corax.

 

Anyway I just believe with FW we don't have to worry about quality. We pay a premium for their stuff and in return the quality we get is outstanding, however we might not always like their art direction. For instance I don't appreciate the art direction taken for Garro or the Mor Deythan squad but I love the art direction of the Atrapos knight and Corax. 

[Kol Saresk]

I think there may be some confusion with the words "quality" and "direction" here. I can't speak for the BL stuff as I have only read the first three novels but on the FW side of things I would argue that the Quality is just as good as it has always been but they have made choices in art Direction that some people don't enjoy.

Let me illustrate this by first talking about quality. The Cataphractii legs produced by FW are more detailed than those made by GW in the BaC set. You can see this in the space behind the knee pads, FW's have an actual cavity and defined portion where the knee pad ends while GW's just kind of melt into the thigh plate. That's quality and FW far outclasses GW in this category.

 

Now for art direction. FW's Corax is of the same quality as Angron or Ferrus (FW has produced these miniatures to the same caliber of detail) however they made certain artistic choices that many people don't necessarily like. Corax and the Dark Furies are not as festooned with bling as we might expect and on top of that many fans have been upset with Corax's face, hair, and pose. I believe these are not gripes in quality but instead complaints in art direction. Now look at the Atrapos. Once again that is a new model of the same quality as everything else but people generally like the art direction more so than Corax.

 

Anyway I just believe with FW we don't have to worry about quality. We pay a premium for their stuff and in return the quality we get is outstanding, however we might not always like their art direction. For instance I don't appreciate the art direction taken for Garro or the Mor Deythan squad but I love the art direction of the Atrapos knight and Corax.

I would argue direction is primarily the main gripe period. Sure, there are some novels, novellas, short stories, eshorts and audios that are less than spectacular. But for the most part everyone has been expecting a rather straightforward, linear telling of the Horus Heresy that somehow covers the entire seven years of the Horus Heresy, but only covers what few events we have listed in the previous codexes and index astartes other information. Which granted, is still quite a bit of information.

 

What Black Library and Forgeworld have chosen to do instead is add depth to what is already there while also widening the sidelines to go from linear to galactic. Events that weren't even hinted at are being thrown in. For example, the Ultramarines original contribution was they fought at Calth and then were heading to Terra and possibly maybe helped forced Horus' hand into lowering the shields.

 

So an entire Legion fought a portion of a Legion at the beginning of the Heresy and then took seven years to do anything else, and all they did was show up.

 

Instead now, they get their own tiny little war with the Death Guard, Night Lords, Word Bearers and World Eaters across five hundred planets. For four years they beat back four Legions.

 

And meanwhile, everyone's complaining about the Underground War. Because apparently Astartes spending seven years killing each other while suffocating in the bowels of the earth just isn't dramatic enough.

 

And yes, there have been some less than spectacular moments. Artefacts, Deathfire, Vulkan Lives, that short by Gav Thorpe about a loyalist Night Lord, and a few others. But there have been some better moments as well.

 

But the majority of the problem seems to be direction.

 

"Oh, the Night Lords finally got a book. Nevermind they're the antagonist and it technically isn't their novel. They've been writing about them too long! When do the Dark Angels get a novel? Because the other two don't count!" "Curze has only been in two novels! We need more Mortarion! Granted, he's been in three novels, but we still need more!"

 

Meanwhile Ferrus Manus gets left in the dirt. Not sure if the pun is intended.

 

Really what we need is more Thousand Sons if we really want to balance the scales.

 

Also, we're in year 5 of the Heresy now. Ten years later. That's 2.5 years to cover a year on average. So guess what everybody? 7.5 years and then everyone who wants to jump ship at Terra can.

[GhostMalone]

Well yes I agree to an extent Kol but it's the amount of focus on one area ie imperium secundus rather than more like sarum or more things like tallaran and other world's where the war is taking shape and limited astrates actions rather than hay we have 2 areas of warfare imperium secundus and slowly Terra.

 

We had some action at chordal with Wolves Alpha Death Guard and scars but where is everything else in that period as you said we are in year 5 and I feel so much has been unanswered and left to the wayside instead we have all this garbage in the 500 world's.

 

Hell Angron ascended yet now it's like not even fighting brah! Yet Fulgrim is all up in everything I'd much rather see some more action where you have lone companies taking Sectors of space with malitia and mech etc.

 

I know we can't be too linear but it's too condensed into one area

[Kol Saresk]

Except the Imperium Secundus arc is literally Unremembered Empire, Deathfire and Pharos. And Pharos is explicitly stated to be the end of it in the afterword. Most of the short stories and novellas featuring the Ultramarines are part of the Shadow Crusade/Underground War arcs. Imperium Secundus wasn't even really an arc. It was like a ten episode anime.

[depthcharge12]

Except the Imperium Secundus arc is literally Unremembered Empire, Deathfire and Pharos. And Pharos is explicitly stated to be the end of it in the afterword. Most of the short stories and novellas featuring the Ultramarines are part of the Shadow Crusade/Underground War arcs. Imperium Secundus wasn't even really an arc. It was like a ten episode anime.

Lol, if that anime is Dragonball Z, then they're still in the same spot they were 10 episodes ago :D which, essentially is what it feels like in the story right now. It feels like you're on a treadmill - you're moving, but still in the same place you were when you started 20 minutes ago.

 

It feels like only Abnett can start off a major point in the war (which technically he should have the right being the best author - with some contention) but, it feels like honestly everybody is just hanging onto the plot shark like a remora without innovating. Is it because they don't want to overstep FW? Maybe. Are they having writer's block after 10 years of writing? Possibly. Are they just fed up with people like Depthcharge and his whining? Definitely.

 

In the FW sense, I feel everything is going just dandy possibly with the exception that is prefer 2 books a year. But on the BL side - it feels a bit lacking. Where's all our marine stories not from Garro/Loken's perspective or the Primarchs (I don't count those shattered legion guys *shudder*)? I was happy to see some marines take roles in Sotha, but they felt rushed at times.

 

Maybe we're just all feeling withdrawal because nothing important has happened as of late in the story or army selection - but that should change with the weekender.

 

 

/ramble

[Perry]

Kurama, it seems to me that you are largely fed up with the current story arc (imp sec). Good thing this has just ended.

 

For me the best thing about the heresy is its galactic setting, with the end of the imp sec and istvaan arcs GW and FW can surprise us with new stories pretty much anywhere in the galaxy. I've recently taken the plunge and against my better judgement bought up the HH novellas that BL have been throwing at us. Stories like Wolf King, prince of crows and Meduson have added plenty of inspiration and a sence of the galactic scale of the conflict. I know we would prefer larger books from BL but these smaller self contained stories are opening up the wider heresy and giving more inspiration to my gaming ideas.

 

End of the day the books released by BL and FW are only a framework to built our own gaming stories on the table top, that for me is where the real enjoyment and longevity of 30k is.

[Kol Saresk]

Maybe we're just all feeling withdrawal

 

 

 

Withdrawal implies addiction. I see no addiction here.

 

http://33.media.tumblr.com/2948f6715adc6ec5fd40e7247ca6fcb9/tumblr_inline_mqvj3pxI2t1qz4rgp.gif

[GhostMalone]

 

Maybe we're just all feeling withdrawal

 

 

 

Withdrawal implies addiction. I see no addiction here.

 

http://33.media.tumblr.com/2948f6715adc6ec5fd40e7247ca6fcb9/tumblr_inline_mqvj3pxI2t1qz4rgp.gif

Nope not at all I've only spent a fair portion of my income on resin men that will eventually lead to the demise of my 7 year relationship @_#

[Brother Pheidias]

It's funny really, but after sitting out all the HH-action from the onset, as I actually thought it tantamount to Heresy to begin fleshing out that mythological age, I'm finally finding myself being dragged into the Heresy Era. While I can't claim to be following the BL releases at all, I am actually finding the Heresy to be a breath of fresh air, and even with Primarchs and Gods playing dice with the universe, I am much more enthralled by the lowly Astartes and the entire theme of being caught up in events that for the most part is forced upon them, and that they must see through to the bitter end, through loyalty or treachery.

As for the quality of Forgeworld's stuff, I don't see where this maligned CAD comes into effect, except maybe in the Shoulderpads over the last couple of released upgrades, but that's hardly the end of quality.

For me, the excitement has just begun!

[Yodhrin]

 

And also I believe it's the quality of the hobbyists that affect my feelings, here on the B&C we have some amazing hobbyists and we're all like minded but in the real world against real local hobbyists the unpainted Unbased and uneducated rear they're heads and cause me such grief with their lack of passion

 

 

Sounds to me like base snobbery. The HH community was largely limited to people who could afford to pay FW prices across an entire(large) army or who were so enamoured of the fluff they would devote years to collecting a small force, which isn't many, so a nice little insular clubhouse atmosphere formed that allowed people so inclined to set themselves apart from and above the "riff-raff" who would merely afford normal GW prices and games, and now with the expanded fluff that provides people with more avenues of entry and a reduced cost of entry thanks to BaC and plastic Mechanicus, you have to share the little space you created with all these horrible poors and 40K gamers.

 

Too bad, so sad.

 

Increased access is good and will always be good unless it causes FW to drastically change their attitude towards the game and the background they write, which is hardly likely given they wouldn't do it by choice, and they're not going to be forced given their existing attitudes and methods made the Heresy so successful despite all the barriers to entry that GW-proper promoted the guy in charge and gave him an even bigger semi-autonomous division with access to plastic production and a mandate to revive Specialist Games.

 

I get being disillusioned with BL, I really do, but not being able to enjoy something you like because, without taking anything away from you, many other people can now enjoy it as well? That's just petty.

[jacqualine47]

I don't think he meant it as a poor-vs-rich clubhouse.  I think its more that in the past HH gamers tended to be more passionate about the models and fluff than a lot of 40k gamers, and he is worried that the community will lose that passion.

[Ishagu]

I don't think he meant it as a poor-vs-rich clubhouse. I think its more that in the past (at least this is true in my locality) the HH players tended to be a friendly bunch more concerned with a fun game than math-hammering to prepare for the next tournament. I only play 30k (no 40k anymore) because I can reasonably expect 30k games to be fun with opponents that see the game as a social interaction with another human being rather than nothing more than a necessary action to increase their win-counter.

 

I stopped playing 40k games locally for the most part because of the number of people whom would offer a 'friendly' game and then instead play a cut-throat game won through abusing poor wording, doing their best to break the system, and disregarding the idea that a game should be fun for both parties. After said cut-throat game, they usually proceed to ridicule me for not being up on the latest rules abuses and for not having an optimized list (literally, they tell me that I'm an 'idiot' for bringing a unit based on it being cool rather than on its stats). These are the sort of people that like to win by doing weird rules-lawyer-ish things like making it impossible for their opponent to legally deploy - they don't even care if a 'game' actually happens so long as they get to put another notch on their wins belt. For me, if somebody forgets to move a unit until after they start their shooting phase, then I let them go ahead and move it - because its not fun to win/lose because somebody had a brain-fart... but for these players, they'd not only not let you move your unit, but they'd also laugh at you and make you feel like crap for it. If I say anything about fluff, fun, etc or say that I don't want to play with them anymore, then they call me a 'crybaby sore loser.' I quit playing 40k in spite of having a great deal of money and time invested in 40k armies, because this sort of player has become the vast majority of the local community in the past several years (it certainly wasn't that way when I started six years ago).

 

Now those same people that made me lose interest in 40k (and therefore concentrate on 30k) are moving to 30k because of the BaC boxset. I - and others - find it worrisome that they may bring that cut-throat 40k mentality to 30k along with them.

 

Oh, and to be clear, I have no problem with losing games. I just don't like going into a game expecting the equivalent of "friends' cards night" but instead getting "Poker with a million dollar pot, a buy-in from a loan-shark, and all your opponents are mafia made-men."

Unfortunately there are people like that, and typically their armies are unpainted and a lot of models proxied.

They can really stifle a community, and I've seen it happen in my local area.

 

God forbid the same thing happens in 30k...

[Terminus]

I have my monocle ready, so I can dramatically gasp and drop it when those damn poors darken our hallowed Horus heresy hallways. And I do mean darken, because some of them carry the mass of a Ramilies-class star fort. I guess all those Calth savings went towards lard gravy milkshakes or whatever it is peasants eat. Damn poors, rabble rabble!

[Perry]

I don't think he meant it as a poor-vs-rich clubhouse.  I think its more that in the past HH gamers tended to be more passionate about the models and fluff than a lot of 40k gamers, and he is worried that the community will lose that passion.

 

 

Best thing about a gaming community? You can choose who you play with. So if you don't want to fight mr proxy go play someone else.