[30k vs. 40k] Mathhammer me this, B&C

[Kastor Krieg]

I'm thinking about running a set of games for "fluffy players" rather than crunch lovers, that'd permit mixing 30k lists with 40k lists during the same event. Since I'm a collector / painter first, I'm not able to do a good power comparison myself. I thought I'd ask the B&C 30k community to help out with a simple set of questions / comparisons. All help will be appreciated :)

• What 40k Independent Characters, if any, can reliably take on 30k Primarchs? Both at the Lorgar and the Angron end of the spectrum? Especially for the SM/CSM dex, but also curious about the others.
• Same for the more fighty 30k ICs?
• Are regular and/or specialist 30k units generally "weaker" point-for-point than what you can get with SM/CSM? If so, why exactly? Lack of Fearless / ITWND? Else?
• Are there units in 30k that'd be "overpowered" for 40k games?

[Flint13]

Quick question for clarification. 

 

When you say spectrum of power Lorgar-Angron, which end is which?

 

Angron will annihilate anything he touches in combat (seriously, I've killed Knights that charged me before they could swing), but Lorgar transfigured can hang with pretty much any psyker one on one, and is one of very few that gets to choose his powers.

[Sheesh Mode]

Khârn the Betrayer is capable of killing Conrad Kurze if he gets the charge and has models to get in-between him and the primarch. Abbaddon is a little more capable of going toe to toe with him on his own. Actually, Abbaddon could be a challenge for Alpharius and Dorn too. But lets keep in mind these are some of the relatively weakest primarchs available. 

[rendingon1+]

I'm thinking about running a set of games for "fluffy players" rather than crunch lovers, that'd permit mixing 30k lists with 40k lists during the same event. Since I'm a collector / painter first, I'm not able to do a good power comparison myself. I thought I'd ask the B&C 30k community to help out with a simple set of questions / comparisons. All help will be appreciated

• What 40k Independent Characters, if any, can reliably take on 30k Primarchs? Both at the Lorgar and the Angron end of the spectrum? Especially for the SM/CSM dex, but also curious about the others.
• Same for the more fighty 30k ICs?
• Are regular and/or specialist 30k units generally "weaker" point-for-point than what you can get with SM/CSM? If so, why exactly? Lack of Fearless / ITWND? Else?
• Are there units in 30k that'd be "overpowered" for 40k games?

1. None (at least from SM/DA/BA/SW). I think it's the question how long said IC can survive vs primarch.

In this case how about Sevrin Loth. 2+ inv and 3 chosen powers from biomancy?

Against Angron who's only 3+sv Mephiston might stand a chance if:

-he charges (+1A/+1I assumin Baal Strike Force is used)

-he rolls 2/3 on quickening (striking first with additional +2/3 attacks)

-he casts snguine sword (S10 on all attacks)

-either rolling 11-12 on transfixing gaze (hitting on 2+ no matter what), or choosing primaris divination (reroll all hits).

That's (if all conditions are met lol) 8-9 hitting on 2+ /4+ with rerolls, wounding on 2+, striking first. He still loses of course

Dark Angels Librarians might try to weaken primarchs with their magic. Mind Worm and thas WC3 power that makes target unitWS1/BS1 for a turn.

Culexus assassins

40k Marines:

- cheaper with better rules (chapter tactics and ATSNKF)

- better equipment (gravs )

- weapon options (no "bolters only" tacticals for example)

- formations

- units like honour guard , TH/SS terminators that are MUCH cheaper then their heresy counterparts.

- acces to army wide deep strike with no drawbacks

Edit:

I found one character that could actually kill a primarch in one turn:

Harlequin Troupe Master with Final Joke warlord trait

[Kastor Krieg]

Quick question for clarification. 

 

When you say spectrum of power Lorgar-Angron, which end is which?

 

Angron will annihilate anything he touches in combat (seriously, I've killed Knights that charged me before they could swing), but Lorgar transfigured can hang with pretty much any psyker one on one, and is one of very few that gets to choose his powers.

Lorgar "unplugged" as a low, I guess?

OK,  so am I correct in assuming "allowing 30k units to play in 40k is OK, but they are at the point disadvantage, while primarchs are out of the question because they will mince up whatever is thrown at them"?

[Slips]

Thing is, Primarchs aren't really Be-All-End-All solutions in 30k.

To make them such you usually require another 500-700 point investment in a Retinue and Transport where applicable. And said unit has counters that are readily available.

So your Primarch Death Taxi will usually run you 800+ Points. If they dont utterly obliterate an equivalent or lower in points Unit(s) in CC, then you did something wrong

[totgeboren]

I have been searching for input to a closely related question, but my search-fu seems rather weak today, though this topic sort of deals with my issue.

 

How many here have allowed 30k and 40k lists to ally? If you do, what do you treat them as?

 

I was thinking of allying some 40k Word Bearers to my 30k Word Bearers, but since they are not even on the same chart it is obviously 'illegal'. Since my 30k WB are allowed Daemons as allies, adding a few Daemon Engines doesn't seem all that game breaking to me....

Some people just want to mix-n-match, like adding a few Mech units to their 40k AdMec list or whatever, which is kinda the same as just adding a few Grav Cents to your 30k list because 'you like the models'. *cough*

 

I was thinking more like treating them as two separate CADs (or, one CAD and one ally perhaps?)

 

Has anyone here done this on a regular basis? What issues have you had? Does it just turn into a cheese-fest?

[Hesh Kadesh]

It is outside the scope of the rules forum, I believe this question is. In the end, you are asking for a tacit response to breaking several rules; namely that it is intended for Age of Darkness only, and that it doesn't recommend mixing the two settings to play against (look at the rules for the new Wulfen supplement for 'why') and that you also ignore the allies table or houserule around it. As well as wanting to include Daemons together, you are breaking the single allied detachment limitation on running Rites of War requiring Age of Darkness FoC, and the ban on allying with the same faction.

 

If you want to include some Daemon Engines, there is plenty of scope with taking a Praevian and/or Forge Lord (or two) and running them as Count As. Got a Plasma Forgefiend? You've now got some Darkfire Castellax or Mhara Gal. Maulerfiend? Vorax. Obliterators? Thallax.

 

Alternatively, ally in Mechanicum, and just go for Summon spam with Erebus/Layak, and Librarians/Burning Lore

[totgeboren]

It is outside the scope of the rules forum, I believe this question is. In the end, you are asking for a tacit response to breaking several rules; namely that it is intended for Age of Darkness only, and that it doesn't recommend mixing the two settings to play against (look at the rules for the new Wulfen supplement for 'why') and that you also ignore the allies table or houserule around it. As well as wanting to include Daemons together, you are breaking the single allied detachment limitation on running Rites of War requiring Age of Darkness FoC, and the ban on allying with the same faction.

 

If you want to include some Daemon Engines, there is plenty of scope with taking a Praevian and/or Forge Lord (or two) and running them as Count As. Got a Plasma Forgefiend? You've now got some Darkfire Castellax or Mhara Gal. Maulerfiend? Vorax. Obliterators? Thallax.

 

Alternatively, ally in Mechanicum, and just go for Summon spam with Erebus/Layak, and Librarians/Burning Lore

 

Yeah, I guess that is the path of least resistance.

Why I mentioned Daemons was simply because my 30k WB can take them as allies. Taking allies from the CSM codex seems like it would present less problems with op combos than taking stuff from the CD codex, but I get your point. I just really dislike count-as if the model has got rules already. It's one thing to count-as using say a converted model from a different system or something similar, but when it is clearly a model that already has rules I don't like count-as at all. Since that is proxying come to think of it, which is something I never do. I would rather house-rule than proxy.

 

I was just curious if someone had house-ruled something relating to this and if so how they though it worked out?

Though you are right, this question is more for the general AoD forum, since it's not about the rules, but more about breaking them on purpose. I guess this entire thread really should be in that part rather than here? :p

Thanks for the feedback though, and sorry for stealing your thread Kastor Krieg! I though my additional question would perhaps give useful feedback for you!

[redmapa]

I wonder if 40k Abaddon can take on a Primarch, he certainly squishes Sigismund to the ground and has a similar stat line to some Primarchs.

[Kastor Krieg]

I wonder if 40k Abaddon can take on a Primarch, he certainly squishes Sigismund to the ground and has a similar stat line to some Primarchs.

What's the math behind this?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Not so sure on him being equal in stats to a Primarch. The "weakest" is non-Saiyan Lorgar, and in comparison, we're looking at +1 WS over Lorgar, while Lorgar packs +1 BS, +2 Strength, +1 Toughness, +1 Wound. The other alternative weak option, because of his 3+ Save is Angron, but that means that Angron has +2 WS, +3 Strength, +1 Initiative, and +2 attacks. Stat wise, Abaddon pretty much loses out in the stat game.

 

If we factor in equipment; then Abaddon's only option is to really use Drach'nyen because +D6 AP2 attacks, but at *only* Strength 5, he's hitting on 3's vs Lorgar and 4's on everything else, at I6 (so, that's Mortarion, Ferrus, Vulkan, Perturabo and Dorn, plus Horus or Rowboat using Worldbreaker or Hand of Dominion respectively, (although Horus can use both Worldbreaker and Talon in the same phase), and same as Lorgar, and Alpharius, Horus and Guilliman with Talon and Gladius respectively. The rest are quicker.

 

Abaddon on the charge gains +2 for rage, with +1 for 2 specialist weapons, and +3.5; so that's 1e's no slouch at all. That's 7-8 hits, and of that, 2-3 wounds, with 1-2 saved, followed by IWND, and the ability to force Dark Fortune to force rerolls on 5's and 6's.

 

That's not to mention the Psychic Powers; level 2 roll powers from Telekinesis or Divination. Lorgar I've found usually runs Telekinesis for Strikedown, Levitation and Psychic Maelstrom, rather than Divination, turning him into moving artillery and capable of flying Gal Vorbak all over the place. Divination usually has too many variables. If you were to run him Transfigured and knew that the purpose was to kill Abaddon (or similar), Precognition, Levitation and either Misfortune or Assail allows you to get the ability to reroll, and kite all game, shooting him with your pistol (rending with Misfortune) or just put Abaddon et al in difficult terrain and hop backwards unleashing your Archaeotech Pistol to plink wounds off. However, for Erratic Powers, it's too variable to run Divination defensively, although you can guarantee Prescience is okay offensively.

 

If running Prescience or Precog offensively, then he has 4 attacks hitting on 4's with a reroll; 3 hits, at S8, wounding on 2's, so that's 2-3 wounds, resulting in 1-2 saves.

 

As you can see, the damage output is the same. Lorgar has another wound, and IWND to keep him in the fight longer.

 

Angron might suffer more damage, because of the Talon, S7 Shred AP2 is 5-6 hits, wounding on 3's with a reroll; 4-5 wounds, with a 4+ save. But Angron has like 8 Attacks rerolling misses hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's; 5-6 wounds before saves, leaves Horus on 1-2 wounds with Angron going first in the second round.

[The Unseen]

To be fair, Abaddon cost like half as much as a primarch, so squaring him up with a termie bodyguard to bring the points to equal, he does pretty good. Hmm... Dante would probably do as well, if he got the charge off.

 

Charging, Dante gets 6 attacks with a master-craft reroll, so say 4 hits, and str 7, so about 2 unsaved wounds against a standard primarch at I7. Not too shabby. Loses big second round though, losing an attack, an point of initiative, and a point of str. But I would bet on dante and 200 points of sang guard against just about any primarch if they got the charge off. Lets see.... 5 guys with a banner, thats 20 attacks, 10 hits, 4 wounds, 2 failed saves. Have to let dante tank wounds though, and they have to get the charge off. Primarchs are far from unkillable at their points value in cc.

[Slips]

To be fair, Abaddon cost like half as much as a primarch, so squaring him up with a termie bodyguard to bring the points to equal, he does pretty good. Hmm... Dante would probably do as well, if he got the charge off.

 

Charging, Dante gets 6 attacks with a master-craft reroll, so say 4 hits, and str 7, so about 2 unsaved wounds against a standard primarch at I7. Not too shabby. Loses big second round though, losing an attack, an point of initiative, and a point of str. But I would bet on dante and 200 points of sang guard against just about any primarch if they got the charge off. Lets see.... 5 guys with a banner, thats 20 attacks, 10 hits, 4 wounds, 2 failed saves. Have to let dante tank wounds though, and they have to get the charge off. Primarchs are far from unkillable at their points value in cc.

Just vs Which Primarch are you Comparing?

 

Because they range from 350-500 in terms of Points and have a WIDE range of rules though they all come standard with "Primarch".

 

Also, Primarchs aren't made to be unkillable but comparing them solo vs a CC HQ & Retinue is kinda unfair since Primarchs in-game would also never get caught without a Bodyguard unit.

 

If its a Direct Comparison, its 1v1; theres a reason why they cost so much.

[The Unseen]

None in particular, just T6 with a 4+ invuln. So of course mortarion and the like will take less damage of course, but will also kill far fewer enemy models each phase than say angron.

[Slips]

Well, heres their profiles as seen on 1d4chan

Fulgrim: WS:8 BS:6 S:6 T:6 W:6 I:8 A:5 LD:10 Sv:2+/5++/3++ in CC

• Gains a number of attacks equal to the difference in Initiative between him and his targets.
• Has Crusader where applicable
• Every 6's to save on his invulnerable cause a separate blind test

Perturabo: WS:8 BS:6 S:7 T:6 W:6 I:5 A:4 LD:10 Sv:2+/3++

• Ignores Blind and Concussive
• Uses Ferrus' Hammer w/ Unwieldy and Blind OR S7 Ap2 Fist Punches at initiative

Dorn: WS:8 BS:5 S:6 T:6 W:6 I:5 A:4 LD:10 Sv:2+/4++

• Can only ever be wounded on a 3+
• His weapon is S-User Ap2 Shred, Rampage, Unwieldy and can halve his attacks for +2S (S8) and Instant Death (Mostly to kill MC's / GMC's)
• Crusader + Furious Charge
• Adds +D3 Combat Resolution independently to other modifiers; thus stacks. This is why peeps say ATSKNF is the best rule in the game

Konrad: WS:8 BS:6 S:6 T:6 W:6 I:7 A:5+1 LD:10 Sv:2+/4++

• Hit & Run
• D3 Hammer of Wrath
• His shooting attacks Ignore Armor and Invulnerable saves on a 6
• Forces Night Fighting T1
• -3 to Fear Tests taken against him.

Ferrus : WS:7 BS:6 S:7 T:7 W:6 I:5 A:5 LD:10 Sv:2+/3++

• -1S to shooting vs him
• S10 Ap1 Concussive, Strikedown Hammer at initiative
• Has a Servo Arm and a Bunch of Guns.

Angron: WS:9 BS:5 S:7 T:6 W:5 I:7 A:6+1 LD:10 Sc:3+/4++

• Hatred (everything)
• Can Declare and fight in as many challenges as he has attacks but must dedicate at least 1 to each challenger.
• FNP (6+) and Furious Charge
• Each IC or Unit he kills in combat gives him a permanent +1 Attack Up to 10 Base (meaning he can go to 12 on the charge or more)
• S+2 Ap2 Weapons

Guilliman: WS:7 BS:6 S:6 T:6 W:6 I:6 A:4+1 LD:10 Sv:2+/4++

• Can Re-roll a single save once every Phase in a turn (movement, psychic, shooting, assault)
• Immune to concussive
• +1WS every combat round after the first up to 10 when in a challenge. Resets at the end of the challenge.
• Can use either S+1 Ap2 Shred, Murderous Strike (ID on 6's) Glaive or S10 Ap1 Concussive Power Fist

Mortarion: WS:7 BS:5 S:6 T:7 W:7 I:5 AL5 LD:10 Sv:2+/4++

• Re-rolls failed Toughness and IWND tests
• Ignores anything that wounds on a flat die roll (Poisoned)
• Can Trade all attacks to instead auto-hit every model in base contact; his scythe has Instant Death.

Horus: WS:8 BS:5 S:7 T:6 W:6 I:6 A:5+1 LD:10 Sv:2+/3++

• May use both his CC weapons in combat by distributing his attacks between them.
• Gains D3 Attacks vs targets with WS4 or lower
• Mace is S10 Ap2 Concussive, Unwieldy
• Claw is S-User Ap2 but causes models who suffer an unsaved wound to permanently lose a stacking -1S and -1WS for the rest of the game.

Lorgar: WS:6 BS:6 S:6 T:6 W:5 I:6 A:4+1 LD:10 Sv:2+/4++

• Transfigured lets him select 3 powers from: Telepathy and Telekinesis and manifests powers on a 3+ at ML3
• Ap2 Power Maul with Smash

Vulkan: WS:7 BS:5 S:7 T:7 W:6 I:5 A:4 LD:10 Sv:2+/3++

• Re-rolls failed IWND
• S10 Ap1 Concussive, Two-Handed, Instant Death Thunderhammer at initiative

Corax: WS:7 BS:6 S:6 T:6 W:6 I:7 A:6 LD:10 Sv:2+/5++

• Furious Charge and Hit & Run
• Two-Handed Ap2, Blind CC Weapon that can:
  • Add D3 Attacks
  • +3 to Vehicle Pen
  • Auto-Wound on a 5+
  • -1 to enemy to-hit
• Can Vector Strike
• D3 S5 Ap3 HoW

Alpharius: WS:7 BS:7 S:6 T:6 W:6 I:6 A:5 LD:10 Sv:2+/4++

• Preferred Enemy (Everything)
• Counter-Attack, Move Through Cover, Scout, Crusader
• Ignores Poisoned and Fleshbane
• S-User Ap1 Instant Death, Two Handed Spear
• Has Hammer of Wrath

So with the amount of Variation Here, going with the simple "T6 4+ Invulnerable" isn't actually worth much as a metric since you're leaving a LOT of data out.

They have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.