Question regarding the Hunt

[GruntAngel]

On one hand you have the elites of the chapter quaking in fear of annihilation if the secret come out and on the other you have at the very least tens of thousands of traitors in hiding who never thought about revealing the secret that would keep the DA from their asses for good?

[librisrouge]

To be fair, it would also get them tons of attention as well, since now the wider Imperium would hunt them as well *cough* Inquisition *cough*

 

Plus, they'd have to be both believed AND survive the informing, which is hardly a give in. Finally, many of them are not terrible guys even. Some are basically just rouge astartes, rather than chaos marines, and probably don't want to see their legion besmirched in such a manner.

[Bryan Blaire]

I think people also forget that the Hunt is as much about honor as it is ten thousand years of lies and actions needed to cover those lies, compounding in an ever increasing spiral of events. It's not just the worry about the Fallen themselves, it's the honor impact and no one else ever being able to know their shame. It's not necessarily a thing of logic.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Plus.... who believes the word of a Traitor?

Who can say they were there 10000 years ago when we opened fire on our Primarch and now they hunt us like traitors and not look like a liar or a traitor or both?

Who will believe such a thing? Only a nosy Inquisitor that already has suspicions.. and there not a whole lot to go around in the Universe..

[Captain Semper]

The Hunt is the biggest cover-up operation in the 40k Universe.

 

The Fallen, although many, do not act as a unified faction, nor do they have an overarching agenda expose the secret. What I'm saying is, there is a faction with an interest to keep a secret but no faction with the agenta to expose it. And the resources / credibility of isolated Fallen is limited - it's not like they can walk in the Inquisition HQ wearing all their Chaos regalia to make an official complain. 

 

Obviously it also requires some suspension of disbelief too... I mean these things only happen in the context of the 40k craziness. But there is a credible story arc to claim that there is enough suspicion to create a distrust on behalf of the Imperium but not enough to take a specific action. Which on some level makes sense. 

[jlmb_123]

The Hunt is the biggest cover-up operation in the 40k Universe.

 

The Fallen, although many, do not act as a unified faction, nor do they have an overarching agenda expose the secret. What I'm saying is, there is a faction with an interest to keep a secret but no faction with the agenta to expose it. And the resources / credibility of isolated Fallen is limited - it's not like they can walk in the Inquisition HQ wearing all their Chaos regalia to make an official complain. 

 

Obviously it also requires some suspension of disbelief too... I mean these things only happen in the context of the 40k craziness. But there is a credible story arc to claim that there is enough suspicion to create a distrust on behalf of the Imperium but not enough to take a specific action. Which on some level makes sense. 

 

Absolutely. One thing that the fluff also doesn't hint at (it only seems to focus on where Fallen have been caught) but would clearly be a factor is that the Hunt doesn't necessarily catch Fallen: I imagine that, although the fluff says very few Fallen are caught and that even fewer repent, the amount of false leads the DA must run into must be staggering and they probably capture as many, if not more, non-Dark Angles as they do Fallen, either as a consequence of the Hunt where their mission to catch the Fallen turns into something else or they try to torture info out of whoever they take, whether it leads anywhere or not.

[GruntAngel]

Now it's starting to make more sense. These details are pretty hard to see from an outsider point of view which sadly reduce the attraction  the 1th should have for everyone.

 

I think we need to see much more reasons to be proud to be of the 1th Legion. The higher the feeling of pride the more evident it would be for the Dark Angels to run after the Fallen with such devotion. That would help to make our storyline much more attractive rather then reading everywhere that "emo" sobriquet".

 

That duality between honor, pride and redemption should be at the core of the dynamic of our chapter. As it is now it's insisting too much on that distinctive aura of shame and feel like everyone of us caught syphilis. When I read that the Dark Angels are dedicated duelists (at least in the Deathwatch roleplaying game book) I see no reasons why so obessed are they with the result of the goddamn Hunt, ready to sacrifice everything else for it. Errr.. What was your only job yet? Right.

 

Finaly but not least; when I think about the primarch shattering his own home world in vengeance I can hardly see the similitude with that gigantic and almost infinite undercover operation. That cut me from the possibility to bond well with what the Lion represent.

 

I hope we'll be able to see more sides of the Dark Angels in the future. As one who haven't read the books (but a ton on wikipedia) and is an enthousiast for the 40k universe I feel like I've been robbed a little bit of the joy of building an army of the First Legion. I hope this won't be seen as ranting more then a desire to have the history of our chapter get a better and more accessible display to everyone.

[Captain Semper]

I think if you want to like the DAs in the 40k context you must like them for their darker side rather than the shiny knight side. They posses both, but it's the darkness that sets them apart.

 

Let me elaborate:

 

The essence of the DAs is that of shame - not pride. Sure the lower echelons in the Chapter may feel as shiny knights protecting the Imperium but the Chapter is in a perpetual redemption quest - it is not selfless but rather self-absorbing. The Inner Circle is in a mission quite distinct from the mandate of a standard Space Marine Chapter - so when it comes to choosing the course of action they will always choose to go after the DA-specific agenda - not the "greater good of the Imperium". It's just that such a conflict does not present itself too often and the DAs carry a lot of weight in the History of the Imperium to be too much in the spotlight.

 

I can elaborate further with the dance of this becoming a wall of text  - which I will happily do if you want to discuss this further. Just keep in mind, the DA are difficult to like. And by that I mean they have flaws of character - a much more severe flaw than say that of the Blood Angels gene issue. After all the Blood Angels do not become Vampires by choice... 

 

Think of the DAs as a cold-war era intelligence agency where the end always justifies the means and the end itself is often defined by internal priorities - not necessarily the priorities of the higher authority they supposedly serve. In short you can only like them if you are one of them - if you only adopt their own agenda and see things from their own perspective. The minute you use objectivity of current moral filters, they may very well be indefensible...

 

Remember: THE CHAPTER IS ALL THAT MATTERS

[jbaeza94]

In short you can only like them if you are one of them - if you only adopt their own agenda and see things from their own perspective. The minute you use objectivity of current moral filters, they may very well be indefensible...

 

Isn't it amazing though how us, as players, well many of us, identify with our army, be it Tau, DA,IF,Eldar etc? I know this is a little off topic, but I thought it would be something neat to point out.

[Radoslav]

 The Inner Circle is in a mission quite distinct from the mandate of a standard Space Marine Chapter - so when it comes to choosing the course of action they will always choose to go after the DA-specific agenda - not the "greater good of the Imperium". It's just that such a conflict does not present itself too often and the DAs carry a lot of weight in the History of the Imperium to be too much in the spotlight.

 

I can elaborate further with the dance of this becoming a wall of text  - which I will happily do if you want to discuss this further. Just keep in mind, the DA are difficult to like. And by that I mean they have flaws of character - a much more severe flaw than say that of the Blood Angels gene issue. After all the Blood Angels do not become Vampires by choice...

 

I beg to differ. Greater good of the Imperium (meaning: mankind, simplifying term) is hardly contradictory to DA mission to hunt the Fallen. Also- it can be quarreled that IF sins of the Fallen (of which loyalist DA are not really guilty by any length) would come to light, one of most powerful and loyal forces of Imperium would have been eradicated for a reason that has no real meaning 10 000 years after Heresy. It is a bit like a sin of Adam and Eve in Paradise for Christians, if we are talking about time perspective, and probably even if we are looking at DA structure, it might be a bit like some dark secrets of Vatican, that only Pope and cardinals are aware of. Something quite real and painful, not shared with masses, but of no consequence to present time. Mentioned eradication (even if swift and successful) would have no positive output for humanity.

[lhavoc]

But as paranoid an nihilistic as the Imperium is already, the Inner Circle may still have a legitimate cause for fear. We have an Inquisitor who thinks nothing about exterminating a hundred worlds to create a "fire break" to slow down a hive fleet advance. As we have seen so fat in "Fallen Angels" Luthor (thrice-cursed) had about 2-3 iterations of recruiting cycles + the cadre the Lion sent back with them at the Fall of Caliban. So the case can be made that it was not "half the Legion", probably only about 10-15% of it stationed on Caliban at the time. The case could be made that it was the blind anger of the Lion that destroyed Caliban (ala Ferrus Mannus) when he ordered the sustained and unrelenting bombardment rather than taking the fight to the Traitors in a surgical strike. While this would have been higher risk for the Legion, it would have spared the planet and the civilian population, which does not seem to have even occurred to the Dark Angels as a consideration.

 

With this as given, the Fall of Caliban and the Fallen may not be the secret the Dark Angels are trying to hide. Perhaps it was that Caliban was corrupt from the start? What ARE the Watchers in the Dark? Perhaps the Fallen know something else about the DA that is the justification for the Hunt.

[GruntAngel]

You can't be shameful if you don't have any pride.

 

It's hard to identify yourself to an Angel when you barely ever mention that side of yours.

 

When most peoples simply have a negative view then it means that you screwed the presentation of the fluff of the chapter somehow.

[Radoslav]

. The case could be made that it was the blind anger of the Lion that destroyed Caliban (ala Ferrus Mannus) when he ordered the sustained and unrelenting bombardment rather than taking the fight to the Traitors in a surgical strike. While this would have been higher risk for the Legion, it would have spared the planet and the civilian population, which does not seem to have even occurred to the Dark Angels as a consideration.

 

I would agree if that would have been any other primarch BUT the Lion. Always calculating, calm, and slow to anger (btw- I do love that entry on him- https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Lion_El'Jonson - quite funny) - that's not the type of person to do something in blind rage. By time he reached Caliban, Lion knew what Chaos is and what are dangers. I would rather suspect him of sacrificing planet (a tiny bit "softer" exterminatus version) then taking the risk of taint.

[Bryan Blaire]

Since we have actually seen the break up of Caliban in text now and know how it happens, you can't really say it was the Lion that punitively destroyed the planet. If you would like to know the whole story, you probably need to read the "Legacy of Caliban" trilogy, or at least the last book, "The Unforgiven". lhavoc did hit on part of it in that Caliban was corrupted by Chaos from the beginning, and while that didn't seem to bother the Emperor, it might give others a different idea if it was more widely known to the broader modern Imperium. There were other secrets that the Lion was hiding as well, possibly an even greater understanding of something within Caliban itself, and the knightly orders, than any of us have seen. Possibly even a darker secret about himself.

 

It's part of the secrets to be kept for secrets sake, but you may not have all the answers, that makes the Dark Angels who they are. To some extent, you can see them as a microcosm of them wider Imperium. Knowledge is power, guard it well.

[Radoslav]

Brother Bryan- you are absolutely right- it is probably just my lack of knowledge when it comes to all those new (more recent then 10 y.) novels. Seems that I got plenty of reading ahead of me.

[lhavoc]

But we do have him instantly killing one of his Chaplains for disagreeing with him. There is also the retention of the Rock (if the soil of Caliban is corrupt, why keep it?) and the Watchers (Servants of Chaos?).

[Chaplain Lucifer]

The Chaplain was not just disagreeing with him. He was being unsubordinate in front of his own men. It was mutiny and the Lion couldn't have that, not at that crucial moment.

[Lostrael]

Isn't it amazing though how us, as players, well many of us, identify with our army, be it Tau, DA,IF,Eldar etc? I know this is a little off topic, but I thought it would be something neat to point out.

I can only agree.

A few days ago a colleague called me witch for my bad habit to appear next to people, startling them. Another college corrected him.

"... not a witch, a Dark Angel. Sneaky bastards!" And I only felt pride.

It might questionable how the Dark Angels keep their secrets. But It's serves the Imperium best to keep the truth hidden and the chapter in service.

The 40k Dark Angels did not know that Caliban was tainted. Even in 30k it was a well kept secret.

[Radoslav]

Regarding Chaplain (from interview with an author, Gave Thorpe):
 

 

 

 

Marcus Pitt – 2. What made you decide to kill off Nemiel and whose idea was it?

 

It was a combination of my idea, and then-editor Christian Dunn’s input. I wanted the Lion to lash out in a moment of stress, Christian suggested it should be Nemiel. The reason was three-fold. Firstly, to confound the expectations of a stereotypical and narratively inevitable confrontation between Nemial and Zahariel, and secondly to show that characters aren’t safe just because they are named or even have a storyline. Lastly, I wanted to hint at the notion that the Lion’s civilisation is a mask he wears, that the beast of the forests still lies in there somewhere trying to escape. This is a theme that I have been developing ever since Angels of Darkness and the consequences of that act start to show themselves in Angels of Caliban.

 

 

 

 

So as you can see it seems to be (in a way) more of an artistic decision than fluff- based one. I do not quite agree with that direction- in a way it is an attempt to re- write Lion as a character and changes it quite seriously (calmest and greatest tactician of Imperium in a fit of a beast- like rage... ) but hey- it seems to be official now.

[lhavoc]

And it shows that the outwardly calm tactician is seething under the surface and can be easily provoked. Such as when he was fired upon once returning to Caliban. And of being provoked to a one-on-one confrontation with Luthor. Again acting out of rage and not calm deliberation.

[Bryan Blaire]

The idea that I put forward previously that Lion El'Johnson is the last of the Beasts of Caliban is not without merit, as evidenced by that answer. It's always been that way. There has always been that undercurrent to his character, and I'm glad that they took the opportunity to show that he actually generally keeps his rage and bestial nature a secret from his men, except in those rare moments when it reveals itself. It helps reinforce the spiral theme of the DA: the Inner Circle are spiraled out from the Lion in his image, the Deathwing are spiraled out from the IC in nature, the DA out from them, the Imperium out from them (not saying that the Imperium is formed from the DA, just that the ideas in the DA are found readily in the Imperium). It's not a re-writing of his character, it is his character, he was forged in the forests of Caliban among the Beasts, and he had to act like a Beast himself to survive. There was always something dark under the surface with the Lion, IIRC, even Angels of Darkness acknowledged that. The Unforgiven and their liege-lord were never paragons of calm virtue.

[Captain Semper]

True enough.

 

However I'd argue that the DAs are the only Legion that suffered a discontinuity in their History. After the "vanishing" of the Lion, the Legion leaders were called upon to make monumental decisions as to where the Dark Angels will go from there. In fact, and despite the Lion's dark attributes, one can argue that the real Fall of the Dark Angels starts after the destruction of Caliban.

 

Hear me out:

 

In the post-Heresy context, being secretive is a matter of choice for them - not an inevitability. They choose to be in the darkness, to lie and hide evidence and generally put distance between them and the official Imperium. It's a choice. A choice for example, that the Blood Angels or the Space Wolves do not have. Genetic mutations, embarrassing as they me be in the 40k context, they are ultimately outside their control and effectively they are victims. We can all understand the BAs need to keep hush-hush in the intolerant Imperium and we, as people living in the 21st Century, can sympathise with them. Not their fault but will still be at some level shunned or suffer repercussions if it comes out. Pure in mind but flawed in body. 

 

The DAs are not flawed in body. They have no mutations - in fact they posses one of the most stable gene-seed. Where they are flawed though is in their conscious actions. They

choose to keep secrets and they choose to evade the Imperial authorities. That makes their moral standing flawed. IF they recognised the Imperium as their ultimate authority then they should have put themselves in its judgement and come clean with it. Accept the judgement of the Imperium whatever it may be. That's what moral integrity suggests. That's what the Lion would do. He was claiming responsibility for his actions. You may disagree with them but he stood by them. That gives him moral integrity. He did not assassinate Nemiel with poison in the night so no-one could put the blame on him. He did it in front of everyone in the colloquial "broad daylight". 

 

So the question arises: are the 40k DAs morally bankrupt?

 

The answer in our next episode! :lol:

[Tygwyn]

A little bit off topic, and there may be an answer out there but: how did the Lion 'get away' with destroying his home world? This can't be it:

 

"Hey Custodian guy, did you just hear that massive scream through the Warp, a kind of Exterminatus scream?", "no oh Mighty Emperor", "I definitely heard something, it sounded like it was near Caliban, fetch me the Lion"... Some time later... "Erm, sorry oh great Dad Emperor, I sort of accidentally blew up Caliban", "why?" "Oh, reasons..." "Fair enough, so nice to see you, how are the First Legion?" Etc...

[lhavoc]

I can't accept this "O, woe is me! My Primarch is gone and I can't make a decision without him!" Philosophy. The Iron Hands lose thier Primarch AND thier entire 1st equivalent of a Company (Chapter?) at the beginning of the Horus Heresy and manage to pull themselves back together (it TOOK awhile, see Clan Raukaan). To the intolerant Imperium they could have just said "Yep! Took care of those Traitor's, lets get huntin'!". Note that EVERY Traitor Legion home world was destroyed (except Alpha Legion, they couldn't find it

[Radoslav]

Again, I do disagree with brother Captain Semper. Please, be so kind as to consider this: Dark Angels are accepting tradition that was not of their own choosing and a sin that is not theirs. It hardly differs to fate of - I am sorry for that rude term- "rank and file" Blood Angels. They have no influence on it (nor do they on decisions of Primarch OR Inner Circle). Considering entire training (or shall we speak: indoctrination program it is- IMONow- if original decision about NOT revealing treason of the Fallen was good or not- Emperor knows (pun intended)- and since he does not demand action nor reveals that secret, I think it is justified to presume, that course of action Lion has taken is accepted by his father.

 

When it comes to destroying planet- I would suspect actions of loyal Primarch would hardly require justification in eyes of Senatorum Imperialis. It is "just" one planet- and accidents happen.