Kastor Krieg Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 ... or MathHammer Me This, please ;)How does Reaping Strike, the new rule on Dorn's chainsword, work? How does it affect his combat value? How do Dorn alone and Siggy fare in a challenge with Siggy's WS8 when with Phalanx Warders now, against Primarchs? Last year's rule threads said Dorn was a low-tier and Siggy *barely* could stand against Primarchs. I'd guess without Unwieldy Dorn is formidable now, mid tier at least. I'd assume Siggs with WS8 to be an even match for the weakest Primarchs?Thanks in advance, very curious :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 · Hidden by Flint13, February 12, 2016 - Bumping Hidden by Flint13, February 12, 2016 - Bumping 52 views and no zeal? That makes a Templar sad :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4300851
Theredknight Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 No astartes should be able to match a primarch. Such a thing is silly. He might tie him up for a turn or two, but never kill him. (Fulgrim might even allow it) Dorn and morty seem a bit more usable now. Not sure how they are tiered. Dorn gives quite a few buffs out doesn't he? Truth is it's a little premature to tell, as we don't have the rules in black and white in front of us, just hearsay, mate reliable hearsay but depends how thins are worded Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4300953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmapa Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Sigismund dies to primarchs mainly because of their IWND/Eternal Warrior, higher Initiative and number of attacks, not their weapon skill (or his). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4301127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Though Ive seen some Napkin Math that gives Sigismund fairly good odds at killing Lorgar un-buffed. On average though, with only 4 EW wounds and 4 Attacks, he is never going to beat another Primarch. The probability of it occuring is there and very real; its just unlikely to happen outside of bad dice rolls. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4301154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Repeat after me. You don't put Primarchs against Primarchs, unless you want to stop your opponents Primarch doing what a Primarch does, in which case you put him in a Pod and Deep Strike him into combat with said Primarch. In which case, you might as well have not taken a Primarch and just play your game anyway. Against a Primarch, he's I4. He's still going last, so he's not any more formidable. If you're up against another Primarch, you're trading +1 to WS for -2 Toughness and loss of the Auric Armour. Sigismund has never been a match for a Primarch. Each model does a wound a turn, and non-Saiyan Lorgar has more with IWND. If Angron or Corax fluff their attacks 2-3 turns running, and Corax is being run by a potato and doesn't Hit and Run, MAYBE Sigi has a slight chance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4301250 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Sigismund is similar to 40k dante with buffs from a priest rules wise, 40k dante managed to do a couple wounds to ferrus manus over a few turns, but died in the process. I doubt sigismund will do a whole lot better (maybe a little) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4302282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Dorn while more attractive now still loses to the Glaive in a lot of my lists , I guess with that new Primarch as HQ rite of war he may be more viable but by and large hes still a force multiplier not a beatstick. Sigismund is not meant to fight primarchs he will do just fine against other things. In my play experience he has been extremely valuable for what ive used him for but even with a killy bodyguard he still lacks the killing power to deal with primarchs. I Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4302676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TemujinZero Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Sigismund eventually loses to all the primarchs, though he may hold out until the game ends if you're lucky. Dorn's buff is very welcome, but I think it's being way overblown. Very little kills a Primarch before they can strike anyway. He's still mediocre in combat, still has a useless gun, and is still stuck with some situational army buffs alongside some solid ones. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4302739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Will someone actually explain Dorn's new rules to me in full. I can't give any opinion or wisdom unless I know the details... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4302884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Lose unwieldy, but strike at -1 Init, but gain bonus attacks when in base Contact with more than one enemy. Thanks to that, he can charge, enemy piles in at I4, has 6+D3 S6 Shred AP2 or (6+D3)/2 round down S8 Shred (ID?) AP2 attacks on the charge. He has 7-9 Terminator killing attacks on the charge. And people still think he is mediocre. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4302888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Well, he is clearly an elite infantry killer and an effective one at that, but still not a master duellist when it comes to battling one on one against a strong character. He'll easily defeat any non primarch character, but works best if someone else is there to accept a challenge instead of him. He's definitely effective against high toughness monstrous creatures too, thanks to Instant Death, more so than most other Primarchs. Is he always subject to -1 Initiative? Regardless, he provides some great army buffs and can cleave his way through units effectively. Very good for a Primarch of his cost. Due to the extra attacks and striking before most weapons that threaten him, I'd say he's easily one of the better Primarchs when considering what he does for the units around him. For me it would be an easy choice to include him, and although he isn't quite as effective at battling against his brothers he still won't roll over in battle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4302916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 I know I will likely start fielding him when he gets a model especially in my onslaught lists. Considering right now I use sigismund and his boys to just chew through infantry and occasionally the enemy warlord I don't see how having dorn won't help that and provide a great counter to some of the tougher MC Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4306231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 It's possible to get Dorn to WS9. That would benefit him greatly as most enemies can only hit him on 5+ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4318178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 With Phalanx Warders, yes. It also would get Sigismund WS8 which would cause some primarchs to hit him on a 4+ :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4318756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Sounds like that's the best way to run him in that case. The impact on Siggy isn't as impressive as opponents still strike him on a 4+ typically, and he won't trump a Primarch, though definitely cool. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4318821 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 That bump to ws 8 would mean that sigi would be able to (more) reliably take a couple wounds off of about half of the primarchs. That is something rqther crazy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4318826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 I kinda want to try it? But vs Storm Shield Terminators as a Retinue? Hard to consider especially since the Bonus still only activates when the unit is Charged. The Warders Defensive Grenades will help, true, but would have been better if it was Always Active. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4318838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 no furious charge for sigismund then O n O Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4318858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 no furious charge for sigismund then O n O Via Templar? Yeah. Also not making full use of his +1 Initiative or Re-roll on the Charge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4318861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 id be willing to put dorn with em I guess , but still sorta meh on the whole thing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4318865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Well, Dorn also gives Furious Charge and Crusader and +d3 to combat resolution (Army wide) so still kinda want to be the one charging anyways you just dont lose as much by not getting the Charge Off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4318879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted February 27, 2016 Share Posted February 27, 2016 Being a master duelist isn't always that important. Alpharius is the suckiest duelist of them all, but everyone clams up when he pokes a unit of automata out of existence. But "easily defeat any non-Primarch character"? I want to see Scoria vs. Dorn mathhammer and how long it would take Scoria to eat him. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4320096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 Where can I find the new rules for IF ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4321771 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 Book isn't out yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319015-mhmt-dorns-loss-of-unwieldy-siggys-ws8-reaping-strike/#findComment-4321794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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