Khornestar Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 After seeing Samus's rules (that he can be a HQ in a primary detachment of Daemons) I got curious if it's possible to take a Daemons CAD. Can make an allied detachment the primary IIRC, but I figured I'd ask in case I missed this somewhere. So far I've only noticed certain WB characters and the chaos militia provenances that allow them to take Daemons, but only as an allied detachment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Yeah why shouldn't you be able to field a daemons army in 30k games? Daemons were there during the heresy ^.^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4300733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Don't think they're in the allies matrix which is probably the reason for asking Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4300735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 No. CAD is not a thing in 30k, and Daemons available only via WB Rite of War or SC at the moment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4300738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakoBoy88 Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 We allow it in house rules and stuff. But you use the Age of Darkness chart. But that's house rules it's not really allowed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4300740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Teeth Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Just use the same FoC selections as your opponent. This probably means one of the Age of Darkness ones in most cases, and give them some warning lol! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4300742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 If Samus is selected in an army which uses Codex: Chaos Daemons as its Primary Detachment in Age of Darkness games, Samus may be counted as a HQ choice rather than as a Lords of War choice. If this is the case, then Samus must be the army’s Warlord and has the following Warlord trait rather than rolling to determine a trait. Imo you can use Codex: Chaos Daemons for your 30k games, you just need to use the detachments rules from the AoD expansion ... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4300750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 Cool, thanks everyone. I'd have no problem using the AoD FOC. I think a mono-Khorne list might actually do some work in 30k, since everything else's points cost is high already. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4300772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
N1SB Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Hi, not posting to arbitrarily debate this, but I honestly thought it was always ok (Edit - by this, I meant Daemons is ok, CAD is NOT recommended, as we'll see below...but at least we can play as Daemons). This issue is important to our meta because a lot of us want to get into 30k, while others want to play certain Xenos races (mainly Orks and Necrons, some Eldar). Taken from the HH1: Betrayal Errata & Addenda v 1.1 (May 2013): ----- Q: Are the armies and units in the Horus Heresy books by Forge World meant to be used in games against regular Codex armies, such as say Grey Knights or Orks? A: While Forge World’s on-going range of Horus Heresy books and their game content are all designed to use and be compatible with the Warhammer 40,000 rules, they have been fine-tuned and focused on playing battles in the milieu of the Horus Heresy rather than in conjunction with the Codexes representing warfare in the 41st Millennium, and this will remain the case. Designer’s Note: This means that while you are, of course, free to have fun and play games against your friends using any forces you like, and Horus Heresy forces will be broadly ‘a fair fight’ with Codex forces of the same scale, certain rules anomalies and inconsistencies may be thrown up that you have to deal with, although these should not seriously affect the game in most cases. (For example, certain units, such as those with the Stubborn special rule are at a premium costing in Horus Heresy armies over their regular Codex counterparts, owing to the results of play testing within their own sphere.) In terms of using Lords of War and the Primarchs, however, these are definitely not intended to be used in standard Warhammer 40,000 games, but only in games where both sides use the Age of Darkness Force Organisation chart, and the specific provisions within, and in games of 2,000 points or greater. Designer’s Note: So if, for example, you wanted to play a battle representing a narrative where the Sons of Horus Legion fought Orks or Eldar during the Great Crusade, you could quite easily use those xenos forces’ Warhammer 40,000 Codexes (possibly house-ruled to accommodate larger squads) to proxy for their Heresy-era counterparts. In this case, however, both sides should be using the Age of Darkness Force Organisation chart, with the army’s own Apocalypse level units and flyers available as Lords of War entries following the guidelines found on page 184 of Betrayal. ----- TL;DR - 40k armies can be compatible with 30k, but should use the Age of Darkness way of organising armies, and be careful when taking Primarchs and LoWs. As an aside, I'd suggest avoiding armies like Tau as they simply didn't exist yet. Edit - i.e. Daemons are ok, but probably better as AoD FOC, not CAD. Just checking if there was a later ruling that trumped this errata. I'm actually building a Taghmata + IH force, so I'm not trying to forcefully interpret the rules, just wanted to make sure my friends who want to use Xenos aren't left out of the fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4300788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 I totally forgot about that! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4300794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1000 Sons Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I thought daemons were a proper 30k army now. Are they only usable as an ally for Word Bearers ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4300836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theredknight Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 At the mo, but looking forward to having fulgrim with a hareem of daemonettes one day.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4300844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 No - daemons can only be allied with Word Bearers or a Cult force (i think cults can also have them) - otherwise, they can't have allies (for now, since they aren't in the allies matrix). But of course you can play them. That said, it would make sense for mid to late heresy era traitors to get them also as allies option - SoH used them for Molech, DG had one there too (a certain daemonprince), and I can see Fulgrim using some girls once he got promoted to prince ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4300856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
noigrim Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 you can always summon them Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4300877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus.calvariam Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 The Blackshields rules state that when they are "taken alongside other forces, they are treated as Fellow Warriors",so I guess this would allow them to bypass the allies matrix problem, that is, if you consider Daemons to be an AoD army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4300885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I'd play Daemons in a 30k game, but that doesn't seem to be the intent. That said, it wouldn't surprise me if we eventually get a Word Bearers daemon prince character who unlocks an all-daemon army... that would be interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4300891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theredknight Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 im guessing it's contravening rules to allow a unit of daemonettes with a legion army, At the moment anyway. I might ask the people I play with if they mind for fluff reasons, not even many, just a few as my 30 kakophoni roar across the table spreading harmony across the enemy lines. Would you allow someone to play that you in your group? I'm talking pretty big games here btw minimum 3k more like 4k tbh. Not some broken rules abuse thing, just think it'd be cool. They get sort of summoned at the maravaglia anyway on board the flagship. I'd totally allow my death guard friend to play plague bearers or corrupt plague marines representing a few that have been 'granted long life by grandfather nurgle' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4300915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 There are no rules saying that you can use Chaos Daemons, apart from an Experimental PDF for Samus that are not yet 'Sanctioned'. The PDF noted for the FAQ is out of date by 3 years nearly and has had since then 8 new releases and a 9th on its way soon. Given the nature of the game and it being FW, you can play with whatever you like. But there is no support for including Chaos Daemons Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4300951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 There are no rules saying that you can use Chaos Daemons, apart from an Experimental PDF for Samus that are not yet 'Sanctioned'. The PDF noted for the FAQ is out of date by 3 years nearly and has had since then 8 new releases and a 9th on its way soon. Given the nature of the game and it being FW, you can play with whatever you like. But there is no support for including Chaos Daemons Öhm yes there is xD You should read Tempest ^^ also ... Cor’bax Utterblight is a Lords of War choice for a Codex: Chaos Daemons army. If Cor’bax Utterblight is selected in an army which uses Codex: Chaos Daemons as its Primary Detachment in Age of Darkness games, Cor’bax Utterblight may be counted as a HQ choice rather than as a Lords of War choice. If this is the case, then Cor’bax Utterblight must be the army’s Warlord and has the following Warlord trait rather than rolling to determine a trait. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4300986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 Yeah there are definitely rules that say we can use them, but currently as written only as Allied Detachments, lest you pursue the AoD FOC comments from above. A bunch of new books coming out don't really invalidate that, since it's sort of an "ask your opponent" type thing anyway. http://i.imgur.com/WJNLN8n.jpg http://i.imgur.com/xHCiWcE.jpg Etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4301011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Yeah there are definitely rules that say we can use them, but currently as written only as Allied Detachments, lest you pursue the AoD FOC comments from above. A bunch of new books coming out don't really invalidate that, since it's sort of an "ask your opponent" type thing anyway. the real problem is FW's "we do something! oh it gets delayed" - Chaos Daemons were initially (a few years back) planned for Tempest - that got postponed for Underground War/Shadow Crusade which was originally planned to be the book after Tempest - but that book got postponed for after Angelis and Mars now, ... although we should get the daemons rules now with Angelis, so the waiting isn't that long anymore. Samus and Corbax were done for the Calth dilogy - but their rules never got printed 'cause they were moved to the second Calth/SC book. Edit: And actually i wouldn't be surprised if they just say: use C: CD's with the following additional warlord traits/special rules/units/characters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4301025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 Yeah there are definitely rules that say we can use them, but currently as written only as Allied Detachments, lest you pursue the AoD FOC comments from above. A bunch of new books coming out don't really invalidate that, since it's sort of an "ask your opponent" type thing anyway. the real problem is FW's "we do something! oh it gets delayed" - Chaos Daemons were initially (a few years back) planned for Tempest - that got postponed for Underground War/Shadow Crusade which was originally planned to be the book after Tempest - but that book got postponed for after Angelis and Mars now, ... although we should get the daemons rules now with Angelis, so the waiting isn't that long anymore. Samus and Corbax were done for the Calth dilogy - but their rules never got printed 'cause they were moved to the second Calth/SC book. Edit: And actually i wouldn't be surprised if they just say: use C: CD's with the following additional warlord traits/special rules/units/characters. That would make sense, and require minimal work on their part. I guess arguments could be made about balance and such, but the army is there already. Gimme gimme gimme! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4301057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Yeah there are definitely rules that say we can use them, but currently as written only as Allied Detachments, lest you pursue the AoD FOC comments from above. A bunch of new books coming out don't really invalidate that, since it's sort of an "ask your opponent" type thing anyway. the real problem is FW's "we do something! oh it gets delayed" - Chaos Daemons were initially (a few years back) planned for Tempest - that got postponed for Underground War/Shadow Crusade which was originally planned to be the book after Tempest - but that book got postponed for after Angelis and Mars now, ... although we should get the daemons rules now with Angelis, so the waiting isn't that long anymore. Samus and Corbax were done for the Calth dilogy - but their rules never got printed 'cause they were moved to the second Calth/SC book. Edit: And actually i wouldn't be surprised if they just say: use C: CD's with the following additional warlord traits/special rules/units/characters. That would make sense, and require minimal work on their part. I guess arguments could be made about balance and such, but the army is there already. Gimme gimme gimme! the army is already there and already used ^^ a bloodletter in 30k = a bloodletter in 40k .... only difference may be that a bloodletter during the shadow crusade could be buffed via the ruinstorm, but that could be done with a warlord trait or a change to warpstorm tables ^^ also: http://i.imgur.com/WJNLN8n.jpg Note how it says may ally with forces - both traitors or chaos daemons - iirc that means you can use Daemons as primary detachment with a Cult army as allies if you want so. Again, keep in mind the book was written with the second one in mind already ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4301060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 Ah, interesting! I just read through it super fast and saw the word "ally" and mentally replaced it with allied detachments. Huzzah! Honestly I don't think I'd use more than an AD's worth of Daemons units, though it's nice to have the option to play around. Sold all my Daemons except for Khorne stuff so I don't really think I can cheese anyone if I wanted to. Fury of the Legion alone will kill annihilate any unit I'd use. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4301062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Ah, interesting! I just read through it super fast and saw the word "ally" and mentally replaced it with allied detachments. Huzzah! it says "armies" not primary detachments ;) Also .... daemons are not cheese besides screamer star xD Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319019-daemons-cad-possible-in-30k/#findComment-4301068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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