Exact Numbers Withheld

[Brother Syddraf]

So i got the current codex today and was really interested in the current chapter strength and as always got the exact numbers withheld line about the Inner Circle, Deathwing, Ravenwing and Company Veterans.

How many could there be hiding away?

Are we as a chapter hiding hundreds more veterans?

What are you views on the current numbers.

 

FYI

In my quest to build and paint the 5th company i have included 2 x 10 mans veteran squad and 2 x 5 man command squad. So my 5th is heavy 30 men. To that i say Legion building hooo!!!

[twopounder]

well, there used to be 100 per company, like all other chapters. However, recently, they have suggested that the DA hide their numbers and, more so, operate as a legion with their successor chapters.

 

The exact number is unknown. Given the size of the rock, they have potentially unlimited numbers. Combine this with widely distributed recruiting worlds, and it's pretty much impossible to say what their full strength is.

 

Though this is nothing new. GW has been increasing the number of chapters that operate well above chapter strength.

[ValourousHeart]

The 100 per company has always been misunderstood.

 

Take the standard battle company from 2nd edition with its 6 tact, 2 assault and 2 Dev squads.

 

Well that is 100 right there. And we haven't addressed basic elements of the battle company that we know were present, namely command units and rhino / Razorback drivers and gunners.

 

I mention the 2nd edition rules because back then the crew for a vehicle had a chance to escape the wreckage and continue fighting.

 

So the chapters were never only a 1000 strong. At best we can say that they were 1000 minimum.

 

And as further proof of this check out the RW pages in our codex. You can't make those charts work with less than 150+ RW.

[ValourousHeart]

I don't think that 2 command and 2 vet squads is to much because the percentages work.

 

If you count ICs, command squads and veteran squads as your COMMAND and all the rest as RANK & FILE you get these numbers.

 

RANK & FILE

60 tact

20 assault

20 dev

28 support - drivers and gunners (R&F & C)

TOTAL 128

 

COMMAND

Captain

Chaplain

10 command

20 vets

TOTAL 32

 

GRAND TOTAL 160

 

That puts your COMMAND as 20% of the company's total strength, which might be high, but not unreasonable.

 

I think if you tried to fit in a 3rd vet squad, you would be to top heavy. I'd probably go for 2 dreadnoughts instead, to round out the company.

[twopounder]

The 100 per company has always been misunderstood.

 

Take the standard battle company from 2nd edition with its 6 tact, 2 assault and 2 Dev squads.

 

Well that is 100 right there. And we haven't addressed basic elements of the battle company that we know were present, namely command units and rhino / Razorback drivers and gunners.

 

I mention the 2nd edition rules because back then the crew for a vehicle had a chance to escape the wreckage and continue fighting.

 

So the chapters were never only a 1000 strong. At best we can say that they were 1000 minimum.

 

And as further proof of this check out the RW pages in our codex. You can't make those charts work with less than 150+ RW.

 

Execpt they weren't. Codex Astartes explicitly prohibits chapters from exceeding 1000 marines.

 

Also, there are only 5 battle companies, with the first two being elite/specialized and the last three reserve companies.

 

Of these battle companies, the command structure is built into the 100 strong numbers. Non-codex chapters have always been an exception to this rule, but in varying ways. Dark Angels don't consider command structure above company level to be part of a given company (and never have). Inner Circle has always been a kind of psuedo company.

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chapter

 

This isn't debatable. It's stone cut lore in the very fabric of 40k. Space marine chapters are supposed to number no more than 1000 marines (though obviously numbers would fluctuate by a small amount depending on losses/recruiting practices).

[Brother Syddraf]

I also like the size of our space fleet. Enough battle barges to move 2 and a half chapters. Lol no legions here.

 

I should also put a disclaimer that my 5th is following the rule of cool more than anything else. Getting a sexy Detolf glass case for my birthday for the whole lot to sit in.

 

Done one veteran squad with 4 robed guys out of the 10. If and when i start doing the 3th company, I'll do 80-90% robes to show there higher rank.

[Leonaides]

Twoponder - have you checked the 2nd ed Codex Ultramarines chapter organisation page... As far as i recall, even then the Captain, Apothecary, Chaplain and Standard bearer were outside the 100marines per company (and while we are at it - the entire Librarius, Forge, Apothecarion and Chapter Household are outside the company/chapter numbers structure....)

[Corsovitt]

The problem is that 1000 marines maximum doesn't work 10 companies of 100 marines this number doesn't include chapter master honour guard, company commanders, command squads, chaplains, apothecaries, librarians, techmarines etc so already we're beyond the 1000 maximum.

 

10th Company Scouts

So as I recall from a recent coded the numbers in the tenth company fluctuate from half a company upwards of 150 noviates however there is very little information as to how a scout progresses is it dead marines boots do they replace losses as they occur or do teams of scouts progress at the end of a fixed term. If they only replace lost marines do you not have groups of young noviates growing old waiting for marines to perish and if they do progress after a fixed development does this not take you over the 1000 marine establishment.

 

6th to 9th Companies Reserves

As far as I recall these guys form the bulk of your bike (tactical)/land speeder (assault)/predator (tactical) and rhino (tactical) crew also since the inception of Centurions (assault/devestator) they provide the marines to pilot those suits too. To fully provide this sort of support to the four battle companies you'd need at least twenty tactical marines per company drivers/bikers and ten assault marines land speeders/attack bikes so 40% of both tactical and assault companies

 

2nd to 5th Companies Battle Companies

It is possible that the battle companies provide these drivers although I'd argue that losing 30% minimum of your combat strength to secondary combat roles is excessive without contemplating the other vehicle resources a company can expect to use Land Raiders/Vindicators/Whirlwinds/Stalkers. Now if all these drivers/tank commanders are techmarines or even marines attached to the armoury which company do they come from? I also haven't covered Marine aircraft which take up even more of the frontline combat personnel.

 

I could go on with the logistical numbers and then try to figure in combat casualties and how that would further reduce combat effectiveness but the numbers defy logic and I'm boring myself never mind everyone else Needless to say I think that the codex 1000 marine limit is figurative not literal.

 

Edit: Ninja'd whilst writing my essay

[twopounder]

Twoponder - have you checked the 2nd ed Codex Ultramarines chapter organisation page... As far as i recall, even then the Captain, Apothecary, Chaplain and Standard bearer were outside the 100marines per company (and while we are at it - the entire Librarius, Forge, Apothecarion and Chapter Household are outside the company/chapter numbers structure....)

 

That's still less than 100 marines for the command structure.

 

I'm not saying marines don't have more than 1000 per chapter, I'm saying the codex astartes forbids it and GW used to very heavily emphasis this point a lot. They have been doing so less and less.

[twopounder]

The problem is that 1000 marines maximum doesn't work 10 companies of 100 marines this number doesn't include chapter master honour guard, company commanders, command squads, chaplains, apothecaries, librarians, techmarines etc so already we're beyond the 1000 maximum.

 

10th Company Scouts

So as I recall from a recent coded the numbers in the tenth company fluctuate from half a company upwards of 150 noviates however there is very little information as to how a scout progresses is it dead marines boots do they replace losses as they occur or do teams of scouts progress at the end of a fixed term. If they only replace lost marines do you not have groups of young noviates growing old waiting for marines to perish and if they do progress after a fixed development does this not take you over the 1000 marine establishment.

 

6th to 9th Companies Reserves

As far as I recall these guys form the bulk of your bike (tactical)/land speeder (assault)/predator (tactical) and rhino (tactical) crew also since the inception of Centurions (assault/devestator) they provide the marines to pilot those suits too. To fully provide this sort of support to the four battle companies you'd need at least twenty tactical marines per company drivers/bikers and ten assault marines land speeders/attack bikes so 40% of both tactical and assault companies

 

2nd to 5th Companies Battle Companies

It is possible that the battle companies provide these drivers although I'd argue that losing 30% minimum of your combat strength to secondary combat roles is excessive without contemplating the other vehicle resources a company can expect to use Land Raiders/Vindicators/Whirlwinds/Stalkers. Now if all these drivers/tank commanders are techmarines or even marines attached to the armoury which company do they come from? I also haven't covered Marine aircraft which take up even more of the frontline combat personnel.

 

I could go on with the logistical numbers and then try to figure in combat casualties and how that would further reduce combat effectiveness but the numbers defy logic and I'm boring myself never mind everyone else Needless to say I think that the codex 1000 marine limit is figurative not literal.

 

GW never used logic when designing these things. Motorpool was never accounted for (who flies the thunder hawks? drives tanks/transports? Who is in charge of battle barges? This wasn't covered in previous editions).

 

To expect 1000 soldiers, of any quality, to impact the outcome of a war (especially where millions or billions of regular forces are involved) is ludicrous. Marines survive purely through plot armor and magic numbers. Lets say a deployed battle company, HQ and support combined, is 150 total marines. One battle tank can incur 10 casualties, which is almost 10% of the total forces the chapter is contributing to the battle. That's one shot. This is true with the loss of a rhino or drop pod as well.

 

So if we want to argue real numbers, chapters need to number at least regiment strength (around 4800 strong) in order to fulfill all combat roles with marines. Battle companies need to number around 200 - 250 marines to fulfill combined arms requirements. That's for a low scale engagement utilizing more conventional warfare. When facing millions of demons or orks, You would still need several army groups.

 

Logistics alone would demand hundreds of marines in escort and rearguard roles to prevent front line units from running out of ammo, and that's in support of a few thousand marines.

 

That's why GW uses so much plot armor. Marines are highly stylized. 1000 is all that's supposed to be needed to do the job. Even though legion numbers were far more realistic for the scope of 40k, and that's only assuming they are an elite force supporting the Imperial Army.

 

So you can have the lore, or you can have real numbers. But you can't have both.

[Leonaides]

Twopounder - exactly where is this 'rearguard' guarding??? They have nothign to escort other than themselves, and no rear to guard. They have orbital support capable of directing ammo drops from orbit to within 20-30 feet (or less - assuming they send squads likely to need it out with a homing beacon).

 

In the right place, it only takes a single person to affect the outcome of a war, and marines are trained and designed to identify that place, survive to get there, and survive long enough to do what is needed.

[Corsovitt]

I want the real numbers lol in the fluff I've been considering for my successors the original chapter master realizes that an organisation of 1000 marines cannot sustain even marginal battle casualties without long periods of training replacements so sets about creating further foundings one of which is little more than a scout chapter combing the nearby sectors for recruits who are seconded to the other chapters as needed and eventually replace combat losses. I'd reckoned on three chapters of marines which would be divided into 6 battle companies and 4 reserve companies the chapter veterans would be massed into 3 companies which would nominally act as a honour guard for the grand master sort of a legions chapter strength across a whole sector always keeping the secret of being separate chapters with common geneseed when in fact they are for all intents and purposes one very large chapter.

[Corsovitt]

Twopounder - exactly where is this 'rearguard' guarding??? They have nothign to escort other than themselves, and no rear to guard. They have orbital support capable of directing ammo drops from orbit to within 20-30 feet (or less - assuming they send squads likely to need it out with a homing beacon).

 

In the right place, it only takes a single person to affect the outcome of a war, and marines are trained and designed to identify that place, survive to get there, and survive long enough to do what is needed.

All true as per the fluff however in most Marine based fluff the companies involved take at least 33% losses now if each of your four battle companies take this sort of loss you would need to move reserve company marines as replacements and the whole of the scout company would need to be processed into the reserve companies which requires new scouts to be chosen and begin the fairly long process to become marines if during that process the companies again take casualties they are irreplaceable and the longer the chapter would be required to curtail combat operations in essence a 1000 marine chapter would eventually be bled to the point of ineffectiveness and with only 1000 of these chapters covering millions of warzones they'd be easy pickings for any one of the myriad of alien or chaotic threats

[ValourousHeart]

Execpt they weren't. Codex Astartes explicitly prohibits chapters from exceeding 1000 marines.

 

Also, there are only 5 battle companies, with the first two being elite/specialized and the last three reserve companies.

 

Of these battle companies, the command structure is built into the 100 strong numbers. Non-codex chapters have always been an exception to this rule, but in varying ways. Dark Angels don't consider command structure above company level to be part of a given company (and never have). Inner Circle has always been a kind of psuedo company.

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chapter

 

This isn't debatable. It's stone cut lore in the very fabric of 40k. Space marine chapters are supposed to number no more than 1000 marines (though obviously numbers would fluctuate by a small amount depending on losses/recruiting practices).

We seem to be talking about 2 different things. Chapter size vs Company size. Take a look at the image on the link in your post.

 

If a squad is 10 marines, then there is no way that the 2nd company on that image can be 100 marines. There are at least 104 marines plus Dreadnoughts plus whoever is driving those rhinos. And according to all of the codexes since 2nd edition, a marine that is not part of the squad that gets in and out of that rhino is driving.

 

It can be slightly easier to approach this from the chapter side and work down, because you can alway short the scout company to make the numbers work. So instead of using you image, let's use the battle company you used to be able to buy from GW. It include 1 captain and 105 marines. If we add a chaplain, and assume that they each share the command squad, that makes 107. Taking 9 companies that same size gives you 963 marine before you get to the scout company. That would leave 35 spaces open for scouts plus the captain and chaplain of the scout company.

 

But again this doesn't address who drives the rhinos! Or any of the land raiders, predators, vindicator or whirlwinds. All of which are driven by space marines.

 

So just remember that each rhino your chapter takes means you have one less scout you can recruit. And past 3 companies getting rhinos means that you have to start reducing the size of your reserve companies.

 

See it is debatable... Which should be obvious, because not even the UM adhere strictly to the codex. Their battle company, like ours is 132 strong plus dreads and rhinos. That means that the UM have closer to this number:

 

112 for the 1st, 132 each for the 2nd to 5th, 112 each for the 6th to 9th.... Or 1088 before you add scouts, rhino drivers, drivers for the armory, librarians or tech marines.

 

But if you don't count command or support and only count "fighting men", rank & file, the 1000 per chapter and 100 per company makes sense.

[Corswain]

Agree completely that the 1000 per Chapter is a goal number and not an obligatory amount. There isn't really a way to maintain a specific 1000 man quota with battlefield casualties and recruits being a flexible variable.

I'd say Chapters are around 1000 Marines.

 

As for DA? I love the idea that they are concealing numbers, it fits in well with the Legion building theories. I'd imagine the Ravenwing in particular probably operates above Codex numbers so that the Angels can cast a wider net for the Hunt.

[Chronotonic]

You are over thinking it

 

Many novels have pointed out that marines are not that type of army for the most part. They are a smash and grab and go army

 

Think special forces

 

They drop in do a single job, maybe multiple items on said job (take out four leaders, blow up ammo depo, and slice two tires on the way out) and leave. No supply lines, no reckons afterwards. No they leave it for the imperial guard to mop up anything left and to reestablish anything they need to

 

Or if said guard are not making progress

 

Drop pod on some marines with stel rhin rapid fire into the masses not pulverized and walk out as the bro fist

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Why are people discussing regular Astartes? We diverge on 1st and 2nd, and who knows in what else... The codex astartes should have little bearing on this discussion. Our codex says we mask our numbers, be it from having more termites and bikes than we should, be it from being a Legion in all but name...

Is it so inconceivable that we actually have double the terminators and bikes from what is written on the paper? Specially when the galaxy is so big and DW and RW have to be always on the hunt and still do their regular duties?

I think not!

[MadMek83]

The exact number of Inner Circle of with held for obvious reasons (if you do not why.... What are you doing here? Chaplain wants to see you at room 42) but also when you look picture with commands tructure of DA and there shield which has command structure of Deathwing: Number of Tactical Dreadnought armor... The 6th and 7th edition Codexes now give more and more hints that Dark Angels, especially 1st and 2nd companies operate more of the Legion style and their "successors" are successors only by name and more act like companies of Legion.

 

Unlike Black Templars, the Dark Angels are smart enough to "obey" the Codex Astartes limitations... at least namely and not rub blatant violations it against inquisitions face.

[Brother Syddraf]

On a bit of a tangent. Is Azrael the only Supreme Grand Master? Can't remember seeing other chapter masters listed as such.

 

Back on topic, is the fleet size a hint at the true size of the Dark Angels and do you think the other unforgiven run to match the Dark Angels?

[Dark_Master]

On a bit of a tangent. Is Azrael the only Supreme Grand Master? Can't remember seeing other chapter masters listed as such.

 

Back on topic, is the fleet size a hint at the true size of the Dark Angels and do you think the other unforgiven run to match the Dark Angels?

Azrael is the Supreme Grandmaster of the Unforgiven, not just the Dark Angel Chapter. He could technically command the legion if he wanted to, don't think this has ever happened though.

 

Some fluff references mean this could be upto 150,000 marines.

 

As for size, it wouldn't surprise me if the 1st and 2nd Companies could be close to chapter strength themselves in order to cover such a wide area. Of course the other companies would need to be larger to support.

 

You make a good point about the fleet, bit of a give away that we have the transport for many chapters.

 

DM

[Fury_of_Fenris]

It seems like the Deathwing and Ravenwing of each unforgiven chapter more or less operate all together. I imagine intelligence and information is shared between all unforgiven chapters.

 

Considering the depth and scale of operating across the entire galaxy such action would be necessary.

 

They are the exceptional planners and strategists so there's no doubt in my mind that the entirety of the unforgiven more or less work together as a legion. 

 

and the rest of the companies of each chapter more or less support the 1st and second.

[twopounder]

 

Execpt they weren't. Codex Astartes explicitly prohibits chapters from exceeding 1000 marines.

 

Also, there are only 5 battle companies, with the first two being elite/specialized and the last three reserve companies.

 

Of these battle companies, the command structure is built into the 100 strong numbers. Non-codex chapters have always been an exception to this rule, but in varying ways. Dark Angels don't consider command structure above company level to be part of a given company (and never have). Inner Circle has always been a kind of psuedo company.

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chapter

 

This isn't debatable. It's stone cut lore in the very fabric of 40k. Space marine chapters are supposed to number no more than 1000 marines (though obviously numbers would fluctuate by a small amount depending on losses/recruiting practices).

We seem to be talking about 2 different things. Chapter size vs Company size. Take a look at the image on the link in your post.

 

If a squad is 10 marines, then there is no way that the 2nd company on that image can be 100 marines. There are at least 104 marines plus Dreadnoughts plus whoever is driving those rhinos. And according to all of the codexes since 2nd edition, a marine that is not part of the squad that gets in and out of that rhino is driving.

 

It can be slightly easier to approach this from the chapter side and work down, because you can alway short the scout company to make the numbers work. So instead of using you image, let's use the battle company you used to be able to buy from GW. It include 1 captain and 105 marines. If we add a chaplain, and assume that they each share the command squad, that makes 107. Taking 9 companies that same size gives you 963 marine before you get to the scout company. That would leave 35 spaces open for scouts plus the captain and chaplain of the scout company.

 

But again this doesn't address who drives the rhinos! Or any of the land raiders, predators, vindicator or whirlwinds. All of which are driven by space marines.

 

So just remember that each rhino your chapter takes means you have one less scout you can recruit. And past 3 companies getting rhinos means that you have to start reducing the size of your reserve companies.

 

See it is debatable... Which should be obvious, because not even the UM adhere strictly to the codex. Their battle company, like ours is 132 strong plus dreads and rhinos. That means that the UM have closer to this number:

 

112 for the 1st, 132 each for the 2nd to 5th, 112 each for the 6th to 9th.... Or 1088 before you add scouts, rhino drivers, drivers for the armory, librarians or tech marines.

 

But if you don't count command or support and only count "fighting men", rank & file, the 1000 per chapter and 100 per company makes sense.

 

 

 

Agree completely that the 1000 per Chapter is a goal number and not an obligatory amount. There isn't really a way to maintain a specific 1000 man quota with battlefield casualties and recruits being a flexible variable.

I'd say Chapters are around 1000 Marines.

 

As for DA? I love the idea that they are concealing numbers, it fits in well with the Legion building theories. I'd imagine the Ravenwing in particular probably operates above Codex numbers so that the Angels can cast a wider net for the Hunt.

 

 

No we're not. I stated multiple times that the total number can vary. You're assuming that the company size MUST be 100. I'm accounting for casualty and reinforcement numbers. If 3 marines die in a company, suddenly it goes from 103 to 100. If 15 die, it's under strength.

 

There was never any way that marines would always be exactly 1000, that is impossible. Codex Astartes enforces a 1000 marine maximum, which means chapters should always strive to maintain 1000 marines. Again, this is 100% lore. Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together will obviously realize this is impossible. But so is a future full of chainsaw swords, space knights, and sky scrapers with cannons. Be wise in how you compare 40k to reality.

 

What I said is that more and more chapters are operating at legion strength, which means hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of marines.

[Fury_of_Fenris]

I could also see Commanders and such going over the maximum to prepare for the end times

 

especially considering everything that's happening with Tyranids,Necrons, the 13th etc, more and more marines are throwing the rules under the bus

[twopounder]

I could also see Commanders and such going over the maximum to prepare for the end times

 

especially considering everything that's happening with Tyranids,Necrons, the 13th etc, more and more marines are throwing the rules under the bus

 

And will likely do so. I'm not sure if it's intentional or just power/lore creep, but GW is definitely making more chapters defy Codex Astartes.

[HaSY]

The beautiful is thing is that the Deathwing and Ravenwing could be above Codex strength as their strengths have been widespread as well as having their own counterparts in other Unforgiven chapters.