Baalite Culture & the BAs

[b1soul]

Yes...I've always thought of the Red Thirst as more genetic and the Black Rage as more psychic.

 

I think there's some connection between the two...but I like the other poster's characterisation of them as mutation and post-traumatic stress disorder

[Frater Antodeniel]

Yes...I've always thought of the Red Thirst as more genetic and the Black Rage as more psychic.

 

I think there's some connection between the two...but I like the other poster's characterisation of them as mutation and post-traumatic stress disorder

 

You know, the Red Thirst as depicted trough the Fluff act as a drug-need. This way, the Red Thirst can provide a time limited escape, as well as in the end, a shortened way to the Black Rage.

 

As for all drugs, the feeling of well being provided by the Thirst can temporise the post-traumatic stress effects. (One notable exemple are the recent American Soldier who came back from the second Iraqui Wars with, for some of them grave post-traumatic stress effects and who cannot live without pharmaceuticals which effects are most of the time comparable to hard drugs.)

 

The problem with the Thirst, is that like all drugs, a constant consumption, lead to greater need with shortened effects. The day when a Blood Angels may not be able anymore to control the Thirst, he may either fall to it....with still unclear consequence, apart that he become some kind of mindless vampire, or he can fall to the accumulate post-traumatic stress effects and end in the Death Company.

 

In the end, such statement would introduce the fact that those Blood Angels who live the oldest, are those who manage to control the Red Thirst since the very begining with little consumption, and who also manage to deal/evacuate the post-traumatic stress effects. (Those controls can be empowered by either a strong natural will and/or extremely rare gene-seed itteration, such as Dante whose Gene-Seed implantation was one of the most unique, experiencing a lot of the most painfull Sanguinius Memories, or Gabriel Seth who is depicted as being the Strongest Flesh Tearers since Nassir Amit.)

 

Edit : I can also add, the notable fact that, a controlled consumption coupled with an important mutation of the Omophagea organ, like in the Flesh Tearers, Flesh Eaters, Exsanguinators, and Knights of Blood, appears to agrave the Black Rage symptoms, leading to far stronger effects. (But it is also suggested that such case isn't all bad, for it seems to enhance the Astartes already enhanced body, offering strenght, reflexes, and regeneratives abilities far beyond that of Normal Astartes....so, that way, a Flesh Tearers may be far more difficult to kill than a normal Astartes.)

[The Red Thirst]

 

It has always been the case that legions existed before the primarchs were found, always.

 

And why would that have anything to do with anything about Amit?

 

 

In the end, if Nassir was a Terran Born, and the newly founded Flesh Tearers mostly composed of hardened Blood Angels terran born, it would clear many thing about the Flesh Tearers Background, as i would also explain why the Flesh Tearers supposetely diverge so greatly from the other Blood Angels chapters.

 

I for one really like this line of thought, for the Flesh Tearers chapter and its 'brutal' approach to warfare to be as old as the Legion itself would lend a lot to Amits scorn at Guilliman for shattering the Legions.

 

In the novella Sons of Wrath, Amit believes himself to have been all but discarded as an outcast and believes himself and his brothers to be seen as "Angels no more" by their peers. If the 5th Companys 'divergence' is more cultural or traditional due to the recruitment process and location as apposed to merely Amits influence, as suggested in Fear to Tread, then it would lend to a more tragic story, one of a Fathers acceptance of his son, only to be (seemingly) rejected by his Uncle and more noble Brothers.

[Frater Antodeniel]

 

 

It has always been the case that legions existed before the primarchs were found, always.

 

And why would that have anything to do with anything about Amit?

 

 

In the end, if Nassir was a Terran Born, and the newly founded Flesh Tearers mostly composed of hardened Blood Angels terran born, it would clear many thing about the Flesh Tearers Background, as i would also explain why the Flesh Tearers supposetely diverge so greatly from the other Blood Angels chapters.

 

I for one really like this line of thought, for the Flesh Tearers chapter and its 'brutal' approach to warfare to be as old as the Legion itself would lend a lot to Amits scorn at Guilliman for shattering the Legions.

 

In the novella Sons of Wrath, Amit believes himself to have been all but discarded as an outcast and believes himself and his brothers to be seen as "Angels no more" by their peers. If the 5th Companys 'divergence' is more cultural or traditional due to the recruitment process and location as apposed to merely Amits influence, as suggested in Fear to Tread, then it would lend to a more tragic story, one of a Fathers acceptance of his son, only to be (seemingly) rejected by his Uncle and more noble Brothers.

 

 

To push forward on this path, i can say that by my own knowledge of humans cultures, the Flesh Tearers Symbol itself may hold far more senses that what is belief by most....For since the beginings of time, War oriented cultures have mostly turn their faith to strong symbol, the most iconic of it being the Sun....So pushing even more this way, it may not that impossible that the first meaning of the Flesh Tearers symbol may not be a Circular Saw, but a representation of the Sun...and with a central Drop Blood to represent the bounds between Warriors.

 

Given the actual depictation of the Unification Era on Terra and how the Proto-Society of Terra are described, it isn't impossible to imagine that, should Nassir Amit and most of the first Blood Angels may came from Terra, they may be draw from a Proto-Society of Warriors whose belief may took roots in the early Latin Belief of "Sol Invictus"......Plus, such origins would mix perfectly in the Future timeline of the Flesh Tearers, and the Cretacian Tribal Cultures.

[SM1981]

I think perhaps people are reading too much into this.

 

The badge is that way because that's what a Games Workshop employed illustrator chose to draw when given the name "flesh tearers" to work with. I don't think there is anything more to it than that.

 

I certainly don't think there is any subliminal iconography or conspiracy pointing to a deeper meaning of chapter origin in it. Its all juat too much effort for a company who is more about profit and selling product than consistency or quality of that product to do (don't get me wrong I love 40K, but we all know cash is king for GW, and quick & easy cash is best).

 

I highly doubt that games workshop would pour as much time and effort into each chapters icon as is being suggested, and would be very surprised if the company took the time and effort (and money) to outsource this sort of thing to a social anthropologist think tank or hire in such talent in-house to achieve this level of back story.

 

Basically Nessy isn't there fella's.

[Frater Antodeniel]

I think perhaps people are reading too much into this.

 

The badge is that way because that's what a Games Workshop employed illustrator chose to draw when given the name "flesh tearers" to work with. I don't think there is anything more to it than that.

 

I certainly don't think there is any subliminal iconography or conspiracy pointing to a deeper meaning of chapter origin in it. Its all juat too much effort for a company who is more about profit and selling product than consistency or quality of that product to do (don't get me wrong I love 40K, but we all know cash is king for GW, and quick & easy cash is best).

 

I highly doubt that games workshop would pour as much time and effort into each chapters icon as is being suggested, and would be very surprised if the company took the time and effort (and money) to outsource this sort of thing to a social anthropologist think tank or hire in such talent in-house to achieve this level of back story.

 

Basically Nessy isn't there fella's.

 

I must correct you about one important point, that lead your post being irrelevant, the point being that my reflection about the Flesh Tearers Symbol and possible early history isn't about a GW mindtrick, but about a Fluff point of view.

 

So, indeed, i too think that, of course, GW staff designed the Flesh Tearers symbol around a more practical point of view, that of a Close Combat army call the Flesh Tearers and who relied mostly around the Chainweapons, so the Circular Saw was indeed well fitted this way of Thought. But my Point of View isn't that of a GW staff member nor that of a Customers, no, i use the point of view of a 40k "historian".....

 

So, in the end, GW may have design the Flesh Tearers without more knowledge that the inspirational/commercial one, and i hightly doubt that they even imagined that the Flesh Tearers would be developped the way they are now, but NOWDAYS, with the actual Flesh Tearers fluff development, we can push some concept further.

 

Finally, using the Flesh Tearers symbol for exemple, GW may have first designed a Circular Saw with a Blood Drop in the middle, but now, with the extended fluff of the 30/40k Universe and the recent Flesh Tearers extended fluff, we can imagine new way to think of the Initial Design. From the Circular Saw with a Blood Drop, i personnally think that in the Fluff universe it can become a Primitive representation of the Sun/Moon for a Proto Terran Warrior Culture of the Unification Era.

[SM1981]

But then surely you are recognising this is all stuff that you are imagining / creating yourself - not anything that is in anyway intrinsic to either the models (product) or books (cannon / fluff) that GW (and affiliated companies) are producing?

[Frater Antodeniel]

But then surely you are recognising this is all stuff that you are imagining / creating yourself - not anything that is in anyway intrinsic to either the models (product) or books (cannon / fluff) that GW (and affiliated companies) are producing?

 

Look, actually, i'm working my mind around a Flesh Tearers Novel that i wish to explore things that most may not yet explore the way i do, this around the already existing fluff and products. So let me explain you the mind trick.

 

For exemple, once again i take the Flesh Tearers Symbol, Games Workshop staff may have created this one with no other meanings than that of a Circular Saw with a Blood Drop, the first representing the melee aspect of the chapter, the second their ties to the Blood Angels Lineage, BUT, now that in the recents years Black Library have started to explore the early (30k) Legions fluff more deeper, things such as the Flesh Tearers symbol may hold New Interpretations.

 

Furthermore, what made more sense in a Fluff point of view :

 

- A Brutal Baalite Nassir Amit Blood Angels captain who decide alone without more explanation to pick a Circular Saw as personnal symbol for himself and his company to show that he/they love Chain weapons and brutal melee ?

 

OR

 

- A Terran Nassir Amit, that lead part of the Blood Angels Legion before the Reunification with his Primarch and whose cultural origins and that of his company lies in a Proto-terranian Warrior Culture, offering explanation about the great rift between his 5th Company and the rest of the Legion as well as a far deeper history for Both Nassir Amit and the early Blood Angels legion. (Blood Angels Legion whose name may have been, like most other legion, another one.....after all Blood refer to the Blood Tribes of Baal and Angels to the Primarchs, but what about the Legion name before the Reunification, what name the Legion have been known under before the reunification with its Primarch ?

 

So you see, where most may see a blockage, i think that there are opportunities, many door may be opened or close by a simple idea/point of view. As exemple, some animals have holds very different roles from one culture to another, the same goes for the Colors, in european culture, white is symbol of Purity and Life, while in others it is a color for Death....

 

-----------------------------------------------

 

And to close my point of view, a little idea to depict my thoughts :

 

"Seth decided to leave our brothers to certain death on a sunless wolrd in order to help those who condemned us, he ran to defend the world of our long lost father, what a fool, a fool choice i made the day i decided to make him chapter master, to trush his warrior soul. Now i witness how he ran after a nobility that wasn't ours since the very begining, guided by illusions of glory he choose to follow the wrong path, but it is all a deception. Remember this, remember that there is no glory in bringing death, there never was, and that we, Flesh Tearers, are angels of death that shall knew no other glory than that of our on death amist the blood of mankind ennemies."

 

For those who have read "A son's burden" novel, the on-Cretacia Carnaevon Reclusiarch "reflection" will make a lot of sense.

[Arkangilos]

Honestly, the first one sounds just as plausible. He could have chosen that as a sign of ferocity, anger, and terror. It is a brutal symbol.

 

Also, the name of the legion was probably just "the ninth legion"

[The Red Thirst]

Honestly, the first one sounds just as plausible. He could have chosen that as a sign of ferocity, anger, and terror. It is a brutal symbol.

 

Also, the name of the legion was probably just "the ninth legion"

Yeah so far there are no prior 'Primary Cognomen' 

 

We have the name Hell Riders but that applied to the 1st Company only and was never official

[SM1981]

Speculation is great.

Forum chat is great.

And your passion for the hobby is great.

 

But surely you recognise everything you are proposing is conjecture, based on speculation, based on an interpretation, and not a lot more no?

 

The swap of ideas is brilliant (and why most people join forums) but there really is nothing in the text anywhere to suggest that Amit came from a sun worshiping battle tribe of terra / earth, who were then shoe-horned into the blood angels and carried both a stigma and a secondary citizen status within the legion because of genetic origin - It's just not there dude.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

Honestly, the first one sounds just as plausible. He could have chosen that as a sign of ferocity, anger, and terror. It is a brutal symbol.

 

Also, the name of the legion was probably just "the ninth legion"

Yeah so far there are no prior 'Primary Cognomen'

 

We have the name Hell Riders but that applied to the 1st Company only and was never official

It applied to the whole first chapter

 

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j10/tballiv/Mobile%20Uploads/82216B68-116D-4163-97F7-1D734055FD46_zps2wevcpam.jpg

[The Red Thirst]

 

It applied to the whole first chapter

I stand corrected, funny too because I used that exact source in my above comment... carry on :P

[Sandlemad]

What are the odds of the tribe of the Blood still being around in the 41st millennium? Are they mentioned anywhere in recent background?

[Leonaides]

What do you mean 'a tribe of the Blood'? The term on baal in the time of sanguinius was a shortening of the tribes of pure blood, refering to the still-human tribes as opposed to the tribes of mutated humans. As there are still unmutated human tribes on baal i'd say the odds are pretty good to be honest...

[Sandlemad]

I meant the specific tribe that found Sanguinius. There were of course a lot of 'pure blood' tribes on Baal Secundus but only one that the old IA article (this is what I am going off of, not read the most recent BA codex) specifically says used that particular shortening of the full name.

 

Was just wondering if there is any mention of that tribe after Sanguinius unified the people of Baal and wiped out the mutants. Obviously aspirants from all over Baal go to compete for places in the chapter.

[Frater Antodeniel]

What are the odds of the tribe of the Blood still being around in the 41st millennium? Are they mentioned anywhere in recent background?

 

What do you mean 'a tribe of the Blood'? The term on baal in the time of sanguinius was a shortening of the tribes of pure blood, refering to the still-human tribes as opposed to the tribes of mutated humans. As there are still unmutated human tribes on baal i'd say the odds are pretty good to be honest...

 

A good question in substance, for i hardly imagine that the Tribes of the Blood still exist in their 30k form in the 40k millenium.

 

For as we know, Sanguinius was really for the transformation of the humans society on Baal to brings it from mere survival to a more Human Society.....and, as i hardly imagine that Sanguinius only gift to his homeworld would only be a Fortress Monastery, i better imagine that, he stepped more than once into "human" affairs of his world. Following the Sanguinius Logic and considering the means at disposal by his Primarch statue for his homeworld, it would make sense that he constructed "vast" cities in an attempt to revive the long lost human culture that existed on Baal before the planet being transformed into an iradiated land.

 

So i think that the "Mad Max 30k Era" on Baal ended under Sanguinius reign, and that the 40k Baalite tribes may be less on the survival than their ancestors.

[Spagunk]

But part of the current initiation is to traverse the desert wastes to get to the arena so the "mad max era" still exists in some regards.

[Arkangilos]

Yeah, Baal hasn't really changed. The codex, the fluff, short stories, etc. still have Baal as being the same. The Fortress Monastary isn't even on the moon Sanguinius landed on.

 

The codex explicitly says that Sanguinius was found and left before Baal could be fixed.

 

There is actually a story in 2ed codex where a sergeant remembers life on Baal.

 

Not to mention, the codices describe Baal.

[Sandlemad]

Yeah, Baal hasn't really changed. The codex, the fluff, short stories, etc. still have Baal as being the same. The Fortress Monastary isn't even on the moon Sanguinius landed on.

 

The codex explicitly says that Sanguinius was found and left before Baal could be fixed.

 

Yeah, it's a bit strange. The usual rationale for chapters practicing a policy of non-interference on their recruitment worlds is to keep the populace tough but with the BA it looks odd because their geneseed implementation process changes their aspirants so completely. Surely how tough the Baalites are is irrelevant? They're supposed to be shriveled and wracked by radiation but then they're also supposed to be able to get past vicious fire scorpions? Maybe the chapter wants to keep a spiritual or psychological toughness.

 

Regardless, barring a few mentions of Ballite glyphs in BL background, there's nothing that jumps out to me as obviously Baalite in broader BA culture. There's the philosophical aspect of the geneseed's change, as mentioned upthread, but the BA don't seem to wear their homeworld on their sleeve in the same way as the Space Wolves (similar death world, loads of Fenrisian stuff) or even the Ultramarines (civilised worlds, still get titles like those of Sicarius).

[Arkangilos]

They don't really interfere because they can't. There is only so much you can do with a ruined world. Plus there is tradition, it's how they grew up, the resources available, and tactical reasons. I would say Baal is probably way more harsh than Fenris.

 

Think about waging war on Baal as a non-BA.

[Sandlemad]

Granted. Tradition would be a big reason for the 40k BA certainly, interfering with 10k years of sacred customs would probably be unimaginable.

 

Why Sanguinius didn't do so is a bit of a different question, particularly as uplifting humanity was such a big deal for him. The Lion and Fulgrim both improved - or 'imperialised' at least - their worlds but perhaps Sanguinius saw how well that worked out for Caliban. And as you said Baal was and is a lot more ruined than even Chemos. Makes it a daunting job even for a primarch with the full resources of a GC-era imperium behind him.

[Arkangilos]

I already addressed that. The Codex said he tried, but got whisked away to conquer the galaxy before he could. It said that under him life seemed great and everyone had hope for a greater world, but he had to leave.

 

Again, there is only so much you can do with radioactive wasteland.

 

But yeah, Sanguinius *did* help Baal. It just could not last without him to finish it.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Honestly guys i think you have hit the nail square on the head but didnt realise it.

What form of baalite culture remains in a BA? Well the realisation of being radiated puny ugly ducklings and being able to transform into murder swans is one that must be both humbling and inspiring to make a better world for mankind.

And looking back at the codices, novella, and yes even the supposed terrible swallow books...there isnt a single prideful BA. In fact those that are...die swift or horroble deaths. Its almost as if they deny the transformation and so begin walking away from sanguinius' way of life.

[Arkangilos]

Eeeh, not quite. Tycho was prideful. He became very embittered when his face got all smashed up. Drove him crazy. I mean I guess you did cover that in the, "those that are die" part.