Reasonable Marines - looking for inspiration

[Kastor Krieg]

I'm looking to start a sort of a "Reasonable Marines" chapter and I'm looking to the community for help with for inspiration in form of ideas, images, reference to existing material. The idea was sparked by the Raptors, but I'm unsure whether I'd like to do Raptors exactly (however I like Raven Guard as parent Legion just fine).

Existing inspiration:

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120806210633/warhammer40k/images/4/48/Raptors_Scout_Marine.jpg

Two great kits:

http://www.anvilindustry.co.uk/Exo-Lords/Black-Ops/Black-Ops-Sniper-Recon-Team

http://www.anvilindustry.co.uk/Exo-Lords/Black-Ops/Strike-Team

Points of appeal / current ideas:

• A Chapter that would not be above wearing camouflage per se or at least camo / drab colours (olive / khaki / RAL7013 are the preference).
• A Chapter that appreciates it's snipers / scouts and jump infantry.
• A "Commando" vibe rather than "war machines / knights / monks", sometimes to the point of some rather cheeky bravado.
• Tactics that underline silence / stealth / military manner, but are not above using intimidation / sabotage / psyops / underhanded tactics, etc (think Night Lords not being mad murderous scum, sth like NL tactics done by the Ravens, with a tad of the OLD non-mustache twirly Alpha Legion "professional" vibe).
• Good cooperation with various aspects of Imperial might (Guard, Navy, Assassins, Administratum)
• Distrusting the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy, a lot gets obscured from their view, Chapter poses as a codex Chapter for their sake, not to raise suspicion
• Small, almost non-existent Librarius (few resources dedicated to its growth); what few Librarians exist, are dedicated towards fighting the fog of war and spreading confusion among the enemies / concealing friendly troop movements or raising the chances of success (Telepathy /
• Chapter led mostly by the Reclusiam, the morale / record keepers
• Chapter is not above disguising themselves as other Chapters or even the enemy, if the tactical / strategic situation warrants it
• Preferably a fairly early Founding, a Chapter that might've been Founded as "Codex", however was made divergent soon after
• Non-Codex structure, more fluidity to the force disposition; a "buddy" system similar after a fashion to the Templar one, however after a "neophyte" is trained by the "initiate", they mostly remain paired together; the whole structure is based on the subdivision into pairs, the rest is built off these pairs and these take into account particular aptitudes and specializations

Thoughts?

A lot of this says "Raven Guard", I know. However, for example, I have a Leviathan Dread waiting for me to put it together and it screams "PAINT ME DRAAAAAAB!" to me

[Teetengee]

Sounds like raptors to me, or perhaps a successor of them.

Also, check out The Yak's topic here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256158-a-reckless-disregard-for-the-codex-astartes/

[Lay]

Revilers, if you like grey. They're another RG successor, noted for their expertise in stealth warfare. They're even waging a shadow war against the Alpha Legion.

[Kastor Krieg]

Both Revilers and Raptors sound like perfect allies for my Chapter, but I'd like to do something new. I've sketched up something inspired by the Infinity US Ariadna colour pattern. Not EXACTLY Raptors, something similar (especially fond of the lighter facial plate).

 

http://i.imgur.com/pArS7Fy.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/3wFoF5m.png

[Olis]

This sounds a lot like the sort of brainstorming that the Liber loves to do. ;)

[Kastor Krieg]

Gah, I knew I'd post it in a too broad subforum. Can you please toss me over there?

[Olis]

Sure. I'll just fire up my power hobnail-boots and punt you over there. Now, stay still...

[Kastor Krieg]

*activates Rosarius*

[Kastor Krieg]

Thank you, Moderati Olis.

 

Another idea, if I were to underplay the distrust of the Inquisition and make it more about the Ecclesiarchy (the Unreasonable Ones), I'd love to see a high count of post-Deathwatch Marines in the ranks of my Chapter. Their being reasonable and very tactical from the ground up would make them excellent candidates to be summoned to serve Ordo Xenos in this fashion and them bringing the skills and knowledge gained off varied Xenos and other Chapters back to the mother Chapter would be a incredibly neat quality to have.

[Olis]

Another idea, if I were to underplay the distrust of the Inquisition and make it more about the Ecclesiarchy (the Unreasonable Ones), I'd love to see a high count of post-Deathwatch Marines in the ranks of my Chapter. Their being reasonable and very tactical from the ground up would make them excellent candidates to be summoned to serve Ordo Xenos in this fashion and them bringing the skills and knowledge gained off varied Xenos and other Chapters back to the mother Chapter would be a incredibly neat quality to have.

 

A high number of post-DW marines would mean a high number of DW marines in the first place. Which, logically speaking, would indicate that the Chapter fights mostly xenos rather than renegades or heretics. Perhaps the Chapter operates in particularly dangerous territory, heavy with xenos activity like multiple Ork empires or maybe the power and influence of the Imperium is waning where they are and the Chapter is the last bastion for humanity's right to exist in the sector. Maybe the sector is simply a cesspool (like the Ixaniad Sector).

[Kastor Krieg]

That seems like a great idea. I personally got to play only a few xenos games, especially few with Tyranids, Tau and Orks - making them the Chapter focus and actually hunting down players of these races seems like fun

Any specific Chapter Tactics you guys would recommend for an Anti-Xenos chapter? I was thinking IF CT under Counts-As Kantor, especially with the Sternguard synergy and their special ammo, as well as their neat models and special forces feel :)

[Erasus]

Hello!

 

I'm pretty 'Reasonable Marines' is a thing, like the Angry Marines and somewhat less known Pretty Marines. Could look to them for some further inspiration.

 

Kastor Krieg, please don't take the rest of this post to heart. I am going to question and argue about everything in your original post. I am going to be that guy who disagrees. I want you to seriously think about the things I point out and I honestly, truly want you to come up with a reason that shoots me down. Strengthen this idea, add stuff and discard others. But never forget the reason you liked this idea. ​

 

Let us begin.

 

Ok, now while the concept of 'Reasonable Marines' is an enticing one, you must remember; Space Marines are not anything like the military of today. Even the best, most awesome special forces we have in the world at present or the foreseeable future would amount to the Tempestas at best. Why? Because they're human. So, just remember that your Chapter will forever have the upper hand over those who must use the tactics and stratagems of today. One on one, no basic troop unit of any force is a clear match for a basic troop unit of Astartes. Your Chapter will be made of seemingly superhuman warriors. Superman wouldn't wear camo, he is a symbol to the wider populace. So are the Marines. Superman wouldn't sneak up on someone and quietly take them out, he would swoop in and beat the bad guys to a non-lethal state of pulp. The Marines, admittedly, would take it a step further but you get the gist.

 

Do you understand why the Space Marines operate the way they do?

 

Right I've laid out your points and questioned them and in some cases added a possible fix here,

◾A Chapter that would not be above wearing camouflage per se or at least camo / drab colours (olive / khaki / RAL7013 are the preference).

 

 How would you implement this? Will it be a new colour scheme for every campaign, or the same scheme wherever they go? Also would they take it a step further and 'break up their shape' by adding foliage or other materials to further blend in and change the outline of their shape to something less space mariney?

◾A Chapter that appreciates it's snipers / scouts and jump infantry.

 

To me jump infantry seem the total opposite to the rest of the ethos here; Assault squads are loud and up-close melee fighters. Once they launch, the enemy will know they're coming. That said I know the Raven Guard use them extensively, but as I understand it, they use them as strike squads either once the battle has begun or to initiate the battle. Is this what your looking to do as well?

Do plan to have Tactical marines armed with sniper rifles?

Sounds like this could be the rebirth of the old Heresy-era Recon squads, not a bad thing, actually a really cool one

 

◾A "Commando" vibe rather than "war machines / knights / monks", sometimes to the point of some rather cheeky bravado.

 

Do mean like the Catachan Jungle Fighters?

◾Tactics that underline silence / stealth / military manner, but are not above using intimidation / sabotage / psyops / underhanded tactics, etc (think Night Lords not being mad murderous scum, sth like NL tactics done by the Ravens, with a tad of the OLD non-mustache twirly Alpha Legion "professional" vibe)

 

Please elaborate on intimidation

This sounds essentially like dirty Deathwatch

 

◾Good cooperation with various aspects of Imperial might (Guard, Navy, Assassins, Administratum)

 

while an admirable stance to have, what if a snot-nosed pompous Governor starts to act the big man but you can't kill him? Or an Imperial Guard General is a tad selfish and happy to leave your brethren in the thick of it while he claims credit? Or the Administratum decided the world is not worth fighting for but a decimated Regiment is desperate to avenge their dead? There is such a huge web of conflicting backroom politics that to seamlessly bond with the wider Imperium is impossible. Even the Ultramarines and Salamanders, two of the most cooperative and humanitarian Chapters in existence, have fallen out with others over a matter of perspective or priority. Leads me to a question, who do you wish to support, the Imperium or the people that make it?

◾Distrusting the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy, a lot gets obscured from their view, Chapter poses as a codex Chapter for their sake, not to raise suspicion

 

Why the Inquisition? If your Chapter is such a fan of the Ordo Xenos then they'd know what essential work the Inquisition does. Besides with your Chapter dressing up as the enemy from time to time it seems to me that the most holy Ordos would start wondering why your Chapter is playing with heresy by pretending to be traitors and scum, and refusing to be open with those who would decide what happens next.

Where does your Chapter stand on how they view the Emperor?

Does this mean they don't get on with the Adepta Sororitas?

 

◾Small, almost non-existent Librarius (few resources dedicated to its growth); what few Librarians exist, are dedicated towards fighting the fog of war and spreading confusion among the enemies / concealing friendly troop movements or raising the chances of success (Telepathy /

 

Are you aware the Librarians are the record keepers? Or was that an intentional switch to the Reclusiam?

◾Chapter led mostly by the Reclusiam, the morale / record keepers

 

Why? Does the faith of the Chapter have precedence over the more tactically-minded Captains?

Chaplains ensure the Brothers that make up your Chapter do not become corrupted. Something I imagine they would have their hands full doing if you're sneaking about as the enemy.

◾Chapter is not above disguising themselves as other Chapters or even the enemy, if the tactical / strategic situation warrants it

 

Again, why?

What benefit do you get from pretending to be another Chapter? How would these forces react if they found out?

It is a dangerous game playing as the enemy, especially if the Inquisition is around, they might think you are the enemy parading as a Chapter and not the other way round

How would work with the xenos races your Chapter is regularly at war against?

 

◾Preferably a fairly early Founding, a Chapter that might've been Founded as "Codex", however was made divergent soon after

 

What caused this divergence? If memory serves, the Raptors were nearly wiped out several times due to headstrong tactics and so changed to a more conservative and cautious approach to save their small number of active Brothers. They also hate the notion of glory, instead using the tactics that would give them clean victories over honour. What happened to you?

 

◾Non-Codex structure, more fluidity to the force disposition; a "buddy" system similar after a fashion to the Templar one, however after a "neophyte" is trained by the "initiate", they mostly remain paired together; the whole structure is based on the subdivision into pairs, the rest is built off these pairs and these take into account particular aptitudes and specializations

 

What is the next level up from this basic pair? What happens when one is promoted? Or killed? Or corrupted? Or serving the Deathwatch? What happens if there are no initiates spare to train a neophyte or no neophytes to accompany an initiate?  

Why not keep the existing structure but instead of breaking down into two 5-man combat squads, why not break into five 2-man teams?

 

Finito! With the, recent, change of stance towards an anti-xenos Chapter, it might be worth asking if some of these points that interest you would work against them? Dressing up means little to any of them as you're still human, just needs a bit of tweaking to fit. The Deathwatch is definitely the best source in how to act the way you want against xenos, but you must be careful not to just end being the Deathwatch.

 

As for Chapter Tactics, I would say either the Raptors or Mantis Warriors. Many of the other Chapters have tactics due to a trait that is the opposite of yours. The Raptors are an obvious choice because they're sneaky and the Marksmen special rule could be due to so many DW vets in your ranks. The Mantis Warriors have Child of Prophecy which could be your Librarians trying to discern what your enemies' plans are and the Shadow Killers, although up close and bloody, could symbolise your sneaky skills to get that close and personal in the first place. If you want to include a lot of Assaults, then Raven Guard.

[Teetengee]

If you are interested in the pair notion, you may want to make it that everything: induction, training, promotions, deployment, is done in pairs. Rather than a focus on mentorship it could be a focus on synergy and knowing what the other is up to.

[Kastor Krieg]

If you are interested in the pair notion, you may want to make it that everything: induction, training, promotions, deployment, is done in pairs. Rather than a focus on mentorship it could be a focus on synergy and knowing what the other is up to.

Yeah, that's the idea.

[Erasus]

Promotions?

So there's two Sergeants or two Captains instead?

My questions still stand, what if one dies, or is corrupted, seconded to the DW, promoted, interred in a Dreadnought?

 

I'm not totally against the idea, I'm just unsure how it would implemented in these scenarios. Is it that serious? or is it just a case where each Brother has that one other Brother he can confide in and stuff no matter what. If teh organisation is reliant on this then it needs to make sense.

 

Edit: I meant I'm NOT totally against the idea . . . 

[Teetengee]

hrm, here are my suggestions

First read up on alpha legion, apparently they recruit and induct by the squad, so individual performance is not as important as team performance. It might be helpful to see what sorts of issues that causes and solves.

Secondly, I would suggest that promotions be done in pairs, so that where a regular chapter might have 1 captain, this would have 2. On the battlefield one would need primacy for each engagement in case the other died, but otherwise they would work in concert. Once beyond the basic brother rank, they probably wouldn't necessarily be right next to each other all the time, but instead they would be leading their units in concert.

So two brothers would train together as scouts, then move through to tactical marines. They would fight together until promoted to sergeant. Once sergeant of a squad, they would split, each taking control of two pairs of marines and then their combat squads would operate in concert like they once did. This sort of splitting of control would continue, I imagine. Perhaps even having twice as many half strength companies that work in concert?
Example organization of a battle company as follows:
2 Captains

     5 Squads per captain
         1 Sergeant Team per squad, and 2 Pairs per member of each sergeant team
 

Third, I would say that if one dies that the other might be seconded to the Deathwatch or be required to train a new recruit. Maybe it is serious enough that to die without your partner strips you of honour and you must restart your climb through the ranks? Or maybe they have special veterans teams of misfits?

As for dreadnoughts, they would probably not let such a little thing as almost death change their comradarie, just their methodology.

[Erasus]

Yeah no I know about the Alpha Legion, but there it was the whole squad not pairs. Having an Alpha Legionesque organisation where there's a ranking system but everyone has the ability to operate without it could be an interesting suggestion

 

What if one of the individuals was not worthy of promotion but the other was a paragon? Would he be held back because his brother is less competent? Or would they both be promoted, sending someone unfit for command into a leadership role? How would the dreadnought be deployed? With his brother? Then that brother would only be suited to running into seriously dangerous situations that the dreadnought is designed for and a space marine isn't. It creates dependency on a single brother as well, possibly making it harder to gel with other members. Again taking a leaf out of the Alpha Legion squad independence could lead to close knit brothers without causing as many promotion or separation problems

 

A Captain has to restart his time because the other one died against an enemy champion, seems a tad unfair. He might've been beaten too. What if two brothers are in danger, a Captain and the sworn brother, which should that brother save? His captain who is essential to leading the war effort? Or his sworn brother that he needs in order to ascend?

 

The Deathwatch idea is interesting, I like it, but what about when they come back? Will the Chapter squander their new expertise by hooking them up to a new recruit?

 

Just a suggestion, what if the buddy system is less crucial? The recruits are bonded and they are kept in the same squads until they reach the battle companies, if they both make it, then when the promotions come or advancement to 1st Company occurs then no big deal because they've made it to full Brother status the pair still have that bond but are no longer side by side?

Hmm needs more significance really doesn't it, okay, what if the pairs are important to all spiritual and ceremonial events as well?

 

Honestly I'm not flaming this idea, just want to make sense in a solid way other than "because"

Could this a cultural trait taken on from the homeworld? Or a lesson learnt from the time of the Shattered Legions and acting as a guerillia warband?

[Erasus]

Just seen the edited post, haha feel like we're slowly converging into a similar idea, we'll get there!

[Kastor Krieg]

Hello!

I'm pretty 'Reasonable Marines' is a thing, like the Angry Marines and somewhat less known Pretty Marines. Could look to them for some further inspiration.

Already did, exactly why I'm using this term

Kastor Krieg, please don't take the rest of this post to heart. I am going to question and argue about everything in your original post. I am going to be that guy who disagrees. I want you to seriously think about the things I point out and I honestly, truly want you to come up with a reason that shoots me down. Strengthen this idea, add stuff and discard others. But never forget the reason you liked this idea. ​

As long as it's all constructive, it's all appreciated, Frater. [And finishing my long reply, I see it is! ]

Ok, now while the concept of 'Reasonable Marines' is an enticing one, you must remember; Space Marines are not anything like the military of today. Even the best, most awesome special forces we have in the world at present or the foreseeable future would amount to the Tempestas at best. Why? Because they're human. So, just remember that your Chapter will forever have the upper hand over those who must use the tactics and stratagems of today. One on one, no basic troop unit of any force is a clear match for a basic troop unit of Astartes. Your Chapter will be made of seemingly superhuman warriors. Superman wouldn't wear camo, he is a symbol to the wider populace. So are the Marines. Superman wouldn't sneak up on someone and quietly take them out, he would swoop in and beat the bad guys to a non-lethal state of pulp. The Marines, admittedly, would take it a step further but you get the gist.

Do you understand why the Space Marines operate the way they do?

That is the Codex reasoning, while I'm specifically making a non-Codex force. If the Wolves or Templars can be as divergent as they are, I see no problem with my Chapter. That is the basic shock & awe USMC-taken-to-11 way. It doesn't have to be this way. It isn't this way in the setting itself. Raven Guard as a whole, especially Raptors and Relictors, use guerilla tactics and similar mode of action to the one I want from my Chapter. As well, Deathwatch wear black and are known to be the "specialists". A Raven Guard Scout / Sternguard heavy force would act differently to an Imperial Fist siege force or a Black Templar assault force. Chapters have their specialities, some chapters are unable to act in some capability and I wish my guys to focus on these aspects I've mentioned above.

◾A Chapter that would not be above wearing camouflage per se or at least camo / drab colours (olive / khaki / RAL7013 are the preference).

How would you implement this? Will it be a new colour scheme for every campaign, or the same scheme wherever they go? Also would they take it a step further and 'break up their shape' by adding foliage or other materials to further blend in and change the outline of their shape to something less space mariney?

Similar to the pictures I've posted, a 3-4 solid color gear pattern would make it easy to break up the shapes while not mudding up the miniature. A good camouflage works too well on a small mini viewed from above the table. I've just painted 10 miniatures in the great WW2 "SS-Erbsenmuster" or "peadot '44" camouflage. I had to forgo shading and washing, because the mini was quickly becoming a muddy blur when viewed from 1-2m tabletop distance. Also, painting the SS-Erbsenmuster or the Splittertarnmuster ("splinter camo") in this scale is a pain in the rearside. Won't look great on the flat armoured miniatures either. So to avoid this, it will be a set of 3-4 colors, shaded and washed, lighter faceplate. I might do mixed camouflage between squads or stick to a single palette choice to simulate a particular deployment. Most action I see happens either on grassy tables or on drab, muddy urban warzone tables - the likes of Olive Drab 7 or RAL7013 will look great there and still allow the miniature to be seen clearly and appreciated. Of course, weathering will be included.

◾A Chapter that appreciates it's snipers / scouts and jump infantry.

To me jump infantry seem the total opposite to the rest of the ethos here; Assault squads are loud and up-close melee fighters. Once they launch, the enemy will know they're coming. That said I know the Raven Guard use them extensively, but as I understand it, they use them as strike squads either once the battle has begun or to initiate the battle. Is this what your looking to do as well?

Do plan to have Tactical marines armed with sniper rifles?

Sounds like this could be the rebirth of the old Heresy-era Recon squads, not a bad thing, actually a really cool one

Jump packs are the closest thing to parachutes Marines have. It's either this or roaring pods. A Marine can do a HALO jump with a pack, doesn't need to be a HAHO roaring flight. I'm thinking about counts-as grav chute for Tac or Stern unit backpacks, to match what Elysian Drop Troops have. Teleportation is an option as well, of course.

And yes, since I wish my force to be easily playable both in 30k and 40k, I'm thinking about adding a PA sniper squad from the link in OP, to match the Horus Heresy Recon Squad.

◾A "Commando" vibe rather than "war machines / knights / monks", sometimes to the point of some rather cheeky bravado.

Do mean like the Catachan Jungle Fighters?

More like "if Gaunt's Ghosts with their unique specialties were Marines and were Normandy / Market Garden / Bastogne pathfinders". Think Filthy Thirteen as Marines? That and this power sword Captain / Praetor - Mad Jack Churchill

◾Tactics that underline silence / stealth / military manner, but are not above using intimidation / sabotage / psyops / underhanded tactics, etc (think Night Lords not being mad murderous scum, sth like NL tactics done by the Ravens, with a tad of the OLD non-mustache twirly Alpha Legion "professional" vibe)

Please elaborate on intimidation

This sounds essentially like dirty Deathwatch

That's a good summary and I like this as a general direction. A dirty (-ier?) Deathwatch, without =I= supervision / handling. I can't come up with a good off-hand example, but I've read some of Night Lords and they've done stuff to intimidate a target, or a populace of a city, etc, but they've always gone murderously overboard. Setting an example and setting it up for display or dissuading from action by diminishing and undermining morale, assassination or kidnapping of superiors, "calling cards", setting the force as "the monster in the dark" - but all that without being Khorne / Slaanesh fanclub cretins.

◾Good cooperation with various aspects of Imperial might (Guard, Navy, Assassins, Administratum)

while an admirable stance to have, what if a snot-nosed pompous Governor starts to act the big man but you can't kill him? Or an Imperial Guard General is a tad selfish and happy to leave your brethren in the thick of it while he claims credit? Or the Administratum decided the world is not worth fighting for but a decimated Regiment is desperate to avenge their dead? There is such a huge web of conflicting backroom politics that to seamlessly bond with the wider Imperium is impossible. Even the Ultramarines and Salamanders, two of the most cooperative and humanitarian Chapters in existence, have fallen out with others over a matter of perspective or priority. Leads me to a question, who do you wish to support, the Imperium or the people that make it?

Chapters are largely independent from Imperial politics, as such. A Governor doesn't want an ire of an Adeptus Astartes Chapter. A General will want to call upon us again, a Marine intervention is not something to discard. Favour and disfavour come and go, Marines generally have an upper hand in those conflicts of interest, Emperor's own Angels of Death and all.

However, these are good story seeds. A Governor could be dissuaded from his course of action or intimidated. A Guard General could find himself unable to request Astartes assistance anymore, stories spread quickly. The Chapter might decide to save that Regiment or assist the effort and rebalance the scales. An Administratum record could be altered or falsified. This Chapter would attempt to remain neutral, possibly lean a bit on the Ordo Xenos and Administratum connections to resolve the issues amiably. However any forceful encroachment on the neutrality of the Chapter would be met with a strict reply.

Of the Adeptus Terra, a rare but potentially interesting link could be made between the Chapter and Officio Assasinorum. Maybe even a special relationship could be developed and the Chapter could be made "theirs" like Deathwatch is working with and "for" the Ordo Xenos. Eversor or Callidus tactics, cooperation with OA kill teams. Yeah, that could be neat.

◾Distrusting the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy, a lot gets obscured from their view, Chapter poses as a codex Chapter for their sake, not to raise suspicion

Why the Inquisition? If your Chapter is such a fan of the Ordo Xenos then they'd know what essential work the Inquisition does. Besides with your Chapter dressing up as the enemy from time to time it seems to me that the most holy Ordos would start wondering why your Chapter is playing with heresy by pretending to be traitors and scum, and refusing to be open with those who would decide what happens next.

Where does your Chapter stand on how they view the Emperor?

Does this mean they don't get on with the Adepta Sororitas?

These first two notions were prior to the Deathwatch idea. The Chapter might be wary of Malleus or Hereticus, Xenos are allies. Dressing up as the enemy only to infiltrate a target. Since most of the action would go against Xenos, some "unthinkable" action like "let's have Recon/Scouts steal a Battlewagon and use it" or "capture a Piranha and move our force in it". Not necessarily donning Chaos gear and icons, they would rather avoid the taint. In a scrap though, a Traitor bolter fires just as well.

Adepta Sorotitas would be respected, probably as epitome of "human soldiering", kinda like in 30k (I'd like the Chapter to be present for the Great Scouring already, as part of parent Legion, so 2nd or 3rd Founding is likely) the Lucifer Blacks would.

◾Small, almost non-existent Librarius (few resources dedicated to its growth); what few Librarians exist, are dedicated towards fighting the fog of war and spreading confusion among the enemies / concealing friendly troop movements or raising the chances of success (Telepathy /

Are you aware the Librarians are the record keepers? Or was that an intentional switch to the Reclusiam?

Intentional, as the reduced and more obscure, faded Librarius would not be trusted to do the job. Warp is a risk, a weighted one, but nonetheless. A Chaplain unwavering mind is considered a better repository for knowledge.

◾Chapter led mostly by the Reclusiam, the morale / record keepers

Why? Does the faith of the Chapter have precedence over the more tactically-minded Captains? Chaplains ensure the Brothers that make up your Chapter do not become corrupted. Something I imagine they would have their hands full doing if you're sneaking about as the enemy.

Again, potentially corrupting actions would be best avoided. Chaplains would have a greater presence than the Librarius, Reclusiam might be oversized for that reason, at least with lower ranks. I'm thinking about something on the Red Scorpion theme, every-Sarge-a-Chaplain, as I see their "keep the faith and drill the troops" role as more or less Senior NCO Cadre of the Chapter, the Reclusiarch being more or less the Chapter's Sergeant Major to the Chapter Master's "Colonel"

For lowest ranks of Reclusiam they'd be just the +1 LD Vet Sergeants, game wise, earning not the death mask yet, but the lighter shade of face plate, perhaps.

◾Chapter is not above disguising themselves as other Chapters or even the enemy, if the tactical / strategic situation warrants it

Again, why? What benefit do you get from pretending to be another Chapter? How would these forces react if they found out?

It is a dangerous game playing as the enemy, especially if the Inquisition is around, they might think you are the enemy parading as a Chapter and not the other way round

How would work with the xenos races your Chapter is regularly at war against?

For xenos, described above. Some tools or vehicles can be salvaged or captured and it's not that huge of a no-no.

For enemies of other kind - there might be enemies who fear a certain Chapter, due to their history versus one another. We would not be above playing off that. We don't care about concepts of honour, glory or some such - the mission is everything. Other Chapters would baulk at that, at the same time, we'd likely not do something "out of character", the cover would have to be tight. So maybe that's all the more glory to them?

The gain might be a dodge from operating openly, for example right under the nose of the =I= or some other faction we would rather be not observed by. False flag operations of many kinds would also have an appeal.

◾Preferably a fairly early Founding, a Chapter that might've been Founded as "Codex", however was made divergent soon after

What caused this divergence? If memory serves, the Raptors were nearly wiped out several times due to headstrong tactics and so changed to a more conservative and cautious approach to save their small number of active Brothers. They also hate the notion of glory, instead using the tactics that would give them clean victories over honour. What happened to you?

The potential for the aforementioned connection with the Officio Assasinorum is a tempting point of divergence.

◾Non-Codex structure, more fluidity to the force disposition; a "buddy" system similar after a fashion to the Templar one, however after a "neophyte" is trained by the "initiate", they mostly remain paired together; the whole structure is based on the subdivision into pairs, the rest is built off these pairs and these take into account particular aptitudes and specializations

What is the next level up from this basic pair? What happens when one is promoted? Or killed? Or corrupted? Or serving the Deathwatch? What happens if there are no initiates spare to train a neophyte or no neophytes to accompany an initiate?

Why not keep the existing structure but instead of breaking down into two 5-man combat squads, why not break into five 2-man teams?

Fireteam, then a squad. So yeah, I would be doign something like the codex-inherent "combat squadding", only breaking up in "buddy pairs".

A promotion would be the same as a casualty, the remaining ranking Marine gets a new recruit under his care. Promotions would often come in form of additional specialist training, applicable to the Marine's aptitudes. As such, due to the pairing, they would be given to both of them at the same time, allowing them to act as two-man operator team, a sniper and spotter, an AT/AA gunner and loader, so on. There would not be "Devastator squads" or "Assault squads" dedicated to only that. There would be a complex net of intersecting training that particular Marines have and suddenly it might turn out that the Chapter is capable of fielding more Scouts or Devs than a single Chapter would, because most of them happen to have the training.

Finito! With the, recent, change of stance towards an anti-xenos Chapter, it might be worth asking if some of these points that interest you would work against them? Dressing up means little to any of them as you're still human, just needs a bit of tweaking to fit. The Deathwatch is definitely the best source in how to act the way you want against xenos, but you must be careful not to just end being the Deathwatch.

Some kind of "Space Marine OA slash dirty Deathwatch" is more like it. The "commando spin" gives them character and they aren't necessarily as limited as Deathwatch are. Xenos might just happen to be a lot of what they do.

As for Chapter Tactics, I would say either the Raptors or Mantis Warriors. Many of the other Chapters have tactics due to a trait that is the opposite of yours. The Raptors are an obvious choice because they're sneaky and the Marksmen special rule could be due to so many DW vets in your ranks. The Mantis Warriors have Child of Prophecy which could be your Librarians trying to discern what your enemies' plans are and the Shadow Killers, although up close and bloody, could symbolise your sneaky skills to get that close and personal in the first place. If you want to include a lot of Assaults, then Raven Guard.

Both of them are neat, however 2nd part of Mantis seems irrelevant in 7ed. I was also thinking about sticking with IF CT because of the ability to bring in "Kantor" and his relation with the Sternguard.

Phew! That was a bit. Huge thanks. If anyone has more input, especially of such great quality as Erasus had, you're most welcome

[Kastor Krieg]

Yeah no I know about the Alpha Legion, but there it was the whole squad not pairs. Having an Alpha Legionesque organisation where there's a ranking system but everyone has the ability to operate without it could be an interesting suggestion

That kind of adaptability is the goal. Everything is subdivisive to a pair.

 

What if one of the individuals was not worthy of promotion but the other was a paragon? Would he be held back because his brother is less competent? Or would they both be promoted, sending someone unfit for command into a leadership role? How would the dreadnought be deployed? With his brother? Then that brother would only be suited to running into seriously dangerous situations that the dreadnought is designed for and a space marine isn't. It creates dependency on a single brother as well, possibly making it harder to gel with other members. Again taking a leaf out of the Alpha Legion squad independence could lead to close knit brothers without causing as many promotion or separation problems

Perhaps it'd be up to the battle brother to ensure his pair IS competent. He'd be the first at fault if he didn't elevate his brother to his own level. This dynamic would create a great support net, from the pair up. It's on your battle buddy for you to succeed and vice versa. It's on your other fire team for yours. It's on your squad for theirs. It's on your company for the other one. It's on your Chapter...

 

Hey, actually two twin chapters? Maybe that's the reason to sneak about in other Chapter livery? So that isn't noticed? A Chapter and a Shadow Chapter. A brother is never alone for he always has his shadow. "From shadows we strike, by our shadows ye are struck".

 

A Captain has to restart his time because the other one died against an enemy champion, seems a tad unfair. He might've been beaten too. What if two brothers are in danger, a Captain and the sworn brother, which should that brother save? His captain who is essential to leading the war effort? Or his sworn brother that he needs in order to ascend?

Chapter comes first, as above. The one in whose shadow you stand is the more important for the overall structure.

A "shadow / shade" theme in the naming could be neat.

 

The Deathwatch idea is interesting, I like it, but what about when they come back? Will the Chapter squander their new expertise by hooking them up to a new recruit?

They were taught everything anew in DW. Now they can produce a new "DW" Marine from a Tac dude. Totally use this opportunity.

 

Just a suggestion, what if the buddy system is less crucial? The recruits are bonded and they are kept in the same squads until they reach the battle companies, if they both make it, then when the promotions come or advancement to 1st Company occurs then no big deal because they've made it to full Brother status the pair still have that bond but are no longer side by side?

Hmm needs more significance really doesn't it, okay, what if the pairs are important to all spiritual and ceremonial events as well?

As above, "I am my brother's shadow", I can spin out the myth from here from the significance of this alone. The pair is the core.

 

Honestly I'm not flaming this idea, just want to make sense in a solid way other than "because"

Could this a cultural trait taken on from the homeworld? Or a lesson learnt from the time of the Shattered Legions and acting as a guerillia warband?

Yes, that's actually a great idea, especially since I wanted to root the Chapter in the Great Scouring. Observing the Shattered Legions and permitting the loyal Blackshields to join them or work with them, the Chapter has learned the value of true brotherhood, not the instinctive one instilled by primarch's blood, but the one earned and given on the battefield.

[Tenebris]

I think you should have a look at the Mentors. There are good ideas in there. 

[Teetengee]

As for the buddy promotion/holding back thing. If the chapter only cares about pair functionality, then they wouldn't think about it like one marine is being held back, they might think about it that the pair is not optimally functional. Basically, if your team is not good enough because of your partner's performance, then it is your failing that your partner is so behind, and it is both of your failings that the team is not good enough.

 

also, you may want to consider using the space wolves codex depending on what direction you go, as Lone wolves + Dreadnoughts might be an appropriate combo for certain teams. Additionally, they have wolf scouts, which could be useful as well. Maybe a combo of both that and ravenguard tactics loyalists would be appropriate.

Also, I would say that pods and terminators are a better analog than jump packs for parachutes, but probably any of them would work in that role.

[paulJam]

Ok, now while the concept of 'Reasonable Marines' is an enticing one, you must remember; Space Marines are not anything like the military of today. Even the best, most awesome special forces we have in

...

wouldn't wear camo, he is a symbol to the wider populace. So are the Marines. Superman wouldn't sneak up on someone and quietly take them out, he would swoop in and beat the bad guys to a non-lethal state of pulp. The Marines, admittedly, would take it a step further but you get the gist.

 

Do you understand why the Space Marines operate the way they do?

i wrote a rather verbose counter argument but i can summarise in two words... Raven Guard.

 

p.s. i think the reasonable marines concept is highly underrated.

[Erasus]

Touché good sir

Ah but the Raven Guard are an odd lot because they use tactics Corax adapted when he used human forces. Even now the Raven Guard don't use camo, they have an unnatural knack to blend into the shadows.

But they do use stealth, subterfuge and sabotage.

This Chapter is taking it a step further and heading into the realm of the Alpha Legion when it operated as the Ghost Legion, pre-Alpharius.

[Erasus]

I think the reason "Reasonable Marines" are often overlooked, in my opinion, is that they're not very exciting.

 

Look at the Ultramarines, the most militaristic, non-divergent Chapter that is supposed to be as close to generic as a First Founding can get, lots of people hate em. Why? Differing reasons but most often they're just not exciting and interesting as other fan faces such as the Space Wolves and Black Templars, who follow combat doctrines and have an ethos totally different to our military.

 

There's no heroics, no obvious disadvantages the Reasonable Marines take into battle. We love flaws that get exploited by the enemy and the good guys have to battle through it. The superior and often arrogant mentality most Space Marines have isn't there in the Reasonables and makes relatively dull and lifeless characters. Every Chapter in existence, GW and Liber, has a niche; a theme or quality that makes them stand out and interesting. What do the Reasonable Marines have? They take cover like everyone who isn't a marine or chaos, they use camo which is a less cool version of they blend in like the Raven Guard/Rangers/Mandrakes etc, they don't rush in and take on impossible odds with nothing but raw hatred to give them strength.

 

To make a Chapter of Reasonable Marines exciting and worth looking into, you'd have to make its interesting culture the main focus.

 

Raven Guard have a very specialist culture with all the Ravens and skulls and "we are the shadow"-ness. The Alpha Legion are bad guys who make us think "who can we trust?" and question whether our knowledge is true, they're wrapped in conspiracy and that's cool. The Raptors are the closest thing officially to Astartes versions or our modern militaries, they have a past of being nearly wiped out and are a pretty grim lot who hate war.

 

I think this Chapter needs something else other than its combat doctrine for it to work and not be buried with all the other "we're logical too" DIY Chapters.

 

I didn't like it at first but Kastor I am starting to really dig your Shadow idea, maybe not two Chapters, but in pairs like you suggested. Those who lose their shadow are placed in veteran Ghost squads because "ghosts have no shadow".

 

I just think that "reasonable" is a weak central theme, and will drag this Chapter into obscurity with all the other "Reasonables"

 

Feel free to disagree