Reasonable Marines - looking for inspiration

[Dizzyeye01]

Something to ponder about is why a chapter believes in a certain way. You could have a whole bunch of really cool ideas for combat tactics and so on however if people can't see a logical path that the chapter took to get to those tactics then people get turned off. You could always have it that during battles and such that marines stay in their units and so on whilst off the field the veterans could be assigned a scout/ rookie person who then learns from them. You don't need to throw the Codex astartes right out the window to do it, if anything you can say that a scout squad is usually attached to follow a veteran squad and that it is very rare for the 1st Company and 10th Company to be fighting beside each other due to the fact that they are splintered across the rest of the chapter.

[Teetengee]

Focusing on the pair system seems like a good idea.

Also, I had an idea for a culture that might support the notion of pairs. (Use or discard at your will).

So militant culture. Perhaps women take two husbands to ensure offspring and someone to care for that offspring in the event of one of the husband's deaths. One husband might be the fighter and one the caretaker type. Each pair of males is paired off pretty early in life and learns to work as a team as they are growing up. As they do so, usually it becomes clear who will be which part of the pair (perhaps fighters are more respected, perhaps caretakers, you could play with that). However, sometimes pairs grow up that are pure fighters, eventually these pairs go off to [insert trial of prowess here] never to return. Those who succeed are inducted, those who don't generally die.

Anyways, use what you want how you want to, I just figured since certain cultures in the real world that have high casualty rates have been known to have similar polygamist systems, you might want to consider something like it.

[CYGNUS]

 Might one please ask:- Have you considered what names you'd like to give this Chapter? (What naming scheme would you like to use for the Brothers, what name would you give the Chapter Homeworld and is this a Fleet or a Planet-based Chapter?).

[Kastor Krieg]

 Might one please ask:- Have you considered what names you'd like to give this Chapter? (What naming scheme would you like to use for the Brothers, what name would you give the Chapter Homeworld and is this a Fleet or a Planet-based Chapter?).

Not yet, these are secondary or even tertiary concerns. If I were to guess, fleet based, maybe star-fort based (a'la Phalanx). As for the Chapter name, something with either the "shadow" in it or the actual meaning of the best-known binary star system, Sirius [Σείριος (Seirios)], which means "searing", "scorching" in Greek, because of the binary qualities in the pairs of Marines, et al. Something along the lines of the common name for Sirius, the Canis constellation, also as in "dogs of war" as a common cognomen for the Chapter is just as well.

[Teetengee]

You may want to have the chapter stationed at a planet near Sirius.

[Kastor Krieg]

You may want to have the chapter stationed at a planet near Sirius.

That could be doable, although unsure if this twin suns are a good idea for inhabitable planets. Handwavium 40k should deal with the problem though ;)

[Teetengee]

You may want to have the chapter stationed at a planet near Sirius.

That could be doable, although unsure if this twin suns are a good idea for inhabitable planets. Handwavium 40k should deal with the problem though

Yeah, most planets wouldn't have been habitable, just throw in some convincing sounding flaw/ peculiarity due to the terraforming idiosyncracies and some handwavium and you are good.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

That is the Codex reasoning, while I'm specifically making a non-Codex force. If the Wolves or Templars can be as divergent as they are, I see no problem with my Chapter. That is the basic shock & awe USMC-taken-to-11 way. It doesn't have to be this way. It isn't this way in the setting itself. Raven Guard as a whole, especially Raptors and Relictors, use guerilla tactics and similar mode of action to the one I want from my Chapter. As well, Deathwatch wear black and are known to be the "specialists". A Raven Guard Scout / Sternguard heavy force would act differently to an Imperial Fist siege force or a Black Templar assault force. Chapters have their specialities, some chapters are unable to act in some capability and I wish my guys to focus on these aspects I've mentioned above.

 

 

 

The main problem I have with this line of thinking is that space marines are walking tanks, and designed deliberately as such. They are seven foot tall walking, angry Bradleys. Specialists in certain modes of warfare do exist even within the chapters of the Astartes, yes, of course. However, expecting Shaq in a rigid steel exoskeleton to be subtle is asking a bit much.

 

With the 'stealth' specialists in the Loyalist camp (at least in 40k terms) I'd imagine practically speaking, they are not proper infiltrators. They can't blend in human population smaller than a Hive city, they can observe from a distance and recon all they like with their Scout squads. But when push comes to shove, the Raven Guard and their ilk would simply strike in a far more focused area, with the priority targets being anyone with the ability to raise the alarm.

 

I'd say it's closer to the difference in operation to silencing military checkpoints and outposts, before striking their ultimate objective to what you see a lot of urban Special Forces operations performing these days. No laying up in houses across from their targets, no blending remember? Not least of which but any time they have to move through a human population they would have to forefit their equipment, which gives them a large chunk of their ability to simply overwhelm their opponents.

 

 

Finally, to diverge from the codex, you need a good reason. No, you need a bloody amazing reason. Remember, this codex was compiled from the notes, treatise and advice from the most successful minds in human military history, then compiled and wrapped together by papa smurf with his own marvelous military mind and it's own additions.

 

A divergence from the codex is not to be taken lightly no matter how GW does it, and first founding legions don't count, they have their own Primarchial baggage to deal with.

 

What is your reasoning? Why would they change what has worked for millennia for chapters fare more vaunted than theirs?

 

That's a good summary and I like this as a general direction. A dirty (-ier?) Deathwatch, without =I= supervision / handling.

 

 

The Deathwatch is an extremely specialized unit. Extremely. A lot of their success is down to the fact that they have access to the crem de la crem of Astartes equipment, though not forgetting that they can (with a well oiled, less antagonistic squad) potentially draw on the vast knowledge of warfare gleaned from the veteran warriors of multiple different chapters and campaigns at any one time.

 

Narrowing the focus of your chapter so much is a bit like taking the Arty away from the gun bunnies and expecting them to perform like Rangers.

 

Yes you can slant your chapters operational focus onto smaller and smaller operations as part of a larger strategy but I'd not go so far as to ape the Deathwatch, though I'm not sure you were going to do that, I just thought I'd address it anyway.

 

Chapters are largely independent from Imperial politics, as such. A Governor doesn't want an ire of an Adeptus Astartes Chapter. A General will want to call upon us again, a Marine intervention is not something to discard. Favour and disfavour come and go, Marines generally have an upper hand in those conflicts of interest, Emperor's own Angels of Death and all.

 

 

While yes, technically chapters are indeed largely independent of Imperial politics, it'd be an incredibly poor commander or chapter master to disregard them entirely. Earning the ire of a Chapter is not a good thing for a planetary governor, no.

 

However, even as an Astartes you can't just point your gun at every Imperial servant that doesn't give you what you want. You keep forcing your way on the governor and his people and he will start making things difficult for you. Extra paperwork, shipments being delayed, lost, etc. You throw your weight around too much in a sector and all of the local governors will see you as a threat to their authority as deigned servants of the Emperor to rule. 

 

Your chapter is a drop among the ocean of the Imperium and unless they have a seriously glorious and well known history and reputation to back them up, pushing people about time and again is going to land you in hot water, directly or not.

 

Distrusting the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy, a lot gets obscured from their view, Chapter poses as a codex Chapter for their sake, not to raise suspicion

 

 

Ok, so I read your reply to this one already, but I wanted to first address this point in general.

 

It feels like you're meta-gaming. You don't like how the Ecclesiarchy work, or the darker aspects of the inquisition. They're the ugly side of Imperial life. However, why exactly should your chapter specifically have any extra distrust for the Ecclesiarchy or the Inquisition bar the usual Astartes distrust of these two groups? If they don't then it's not worth mentioning. As you have spelled it out I'll assume that it's not the average.

 

Space Marines dislike the Ecclesiarchy in general because as a rule they view the Emperor being the greatest man that ever lived, but not a god. As for the Inquisition, everyone distrusts the Inquisition. I can understand the Ordo Hereticus, given their reputation for burning the pure along with the tainted in the quest to eradicate heresy, but unless they'd been specifically targeted by them why wouldn't they simply see them as a necessary evil?

 

Why on earth would they have any ill will toward the Daemonhunters? Those that specifically go out to find and destroy the Daemonic? They'd be burning the bridge of an ally that would save their bacon, seeing as this chapter given how you're organizing it would likely be the least likely to tackle a Daemonic incursion or outbreak easily, being too fragmented and isoloated from each other.

 

What I want to know is the reasoning. If this is how you want your chapter to be, fantastic! Go for it! I love it. However, I'd rather it be explained in a way that makes logical sense.

 

 

I want the process, the events and the reasoning that lead to these decisions being made. I want a convincing why to their particular quirks.

 

Of the Adeptus Terra, a rare but potentially interesting link could be made between the Chapter and Officio Assasinorum. Maybe even a special relationship could be developed and the Chapter could be made "theirs" like Deathwatch is working with and "for" the Ordo Xenos. Eversor or Callidus tactics, cooperation with OA kill teams. Yeah, that could be neat.

 

 

I'm sorry but I don't see it. The assassin temples exist for a reason. There has been trouble with a specific temple or high lord gaining too much influence before. Tying a Space Marine chapter (an unsubtle element of Imperial warfare) to the galaxies most consummate infiltration and execution experts is trying to push the 'reasonable marine' envelope too far.

 

Your biggest problem here is precedent. Most of what happens in the Liber is governed by two things. At least it used to be. These are Precedent, and if you don't have one, how well you can explain it in order to get around it, considering most fluff is taken as law, give or take.

[Banelord]

TBH if you want to go for more military style space marines I would go for Paratroopers rather than commandos.  With jump packs, drop pods and thunderhawks an “air assault” theme would fit a space marine chapter perfectly. If you need some inspiration, take a look at the airborne operations during World War 2. The battle for Pegasus Bridge is a good one; troops were drop, at night in gliders, within 47 yards of the objective and took the bridge within 10 minutes. They then held it until reinforcements arrived; I could see space marines doing stuff like that.     

[Olis]

Your biggest problem here is precedent. Most of what happens in the Liber is governed by two things. At least it used to be. These are Precedent, and if you don't have one, how well you can explain it in order to get around it, considering most fluff is taken as law, give or take.

I believe this to still be the case. Although these days we do try to encourage more of the latter than the former.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Your biggest problem here is precedent. Most of what happens in the Liber is governed by two things. At least it used to be. These are Precedent, and if you don't have one, how well you can explain it in order to get around it, considering most fluff is taken as law, give or take.

I believe this to still be the case. Although these days we do try to encourage more of the latter than the former.

Yes I know at a couple of points in the past the Liber has had a bit of a reputation for tearing people apart. Something that was a little bit celebrated. A trial by fire is not necessarily something to build the tools to create something. That said, setting a strong guideline for something as important as logical reasoning and good writing going hand in hand is not a terrible line to take.

I'll watch that I don't fall into old habits!

[Minigiant]

Could an easy way to justify your reasonable marines to make the Raptors your parent chapter?

[Brother Tyler]

Without jumping into the rest of the discussion, I recommend shifting from "reasonable" (a term which is inconsistent with anything about the Adeptus Astartes and the entire game universe) over to "practical" or "pragmatic" (in terms of how they approach warfare).

Okay, I changed my mind about some things.

One of the defining aspects of pretty much all Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes, going back to the time of the Legions, is that they are a force that is used primarily for forcible entry operations from space - a combination of airborne operations and amphibious assault operations. They bring some other tricks to the game and can actually cover a broad spectrum of operations, but their raison d'etre is forcible entry. Even back during the days of the Great Crusade, however, there were units and forces that approached warfare a bit differently; and these differences saw certain Legions with their own peculiar focuses. We've seen such specializations/preferences carried over through the 2nd Founding and on, so it's not unreasonable for later Chapters to deviate from the baseline.

My point, though, is the Adeptus Astartes generally follow a pattern in terms of how they are used.

Most of the bullets in the first post seem reasonable enough (and we can find parallels for most in extant official Chapters, so it shouldn't be hard to develop lore on how this particular Chapter developed to encompass the points). The only one I'm leery of is:

• Chapter is not above disguising themselves as other Chapters or even the enemy, if the tactical / strategic situation warrants it

I can see a willingness to adopt stealth as a focus (there are plenty of other Chapters that already do this, after all). The Adeptus Astartes, however, are a proud and superstitious lot. While obscuring/changing armour color is one thing (as the Raptors and other Chapters such as the Imperial Fists and Howling Griffons have been known to do as the situation warrants), not proclaiming one's allegiance to the Chapter smacks of heresy. While our modern omniscient view understands that armour color and logos (i.e., Chapter icons) do not make the Chapter, the superstitions of the WH40K universe believe otherwise. I'm also not sure what this provides in gaming terms - it really only works with other Adeptus Astartes, including Chaos Space Marines, and I don't see loyal Adeptus Astartes attacking other loyal Adeptus Astartes without significant provocation or a mandate from either the High Lords of Terra or the Inquisition. More importantly, loyalist Adeptus Astartes, especially a force whose primary leadership resides within the Reclusiam, wouldn't truck with either the tools or the appearance of those that have turned to the Dark Powers. Such a mindset really wouldn't work with most xenos forces or with daemons, and would be extremely difficult to employ with any Astra Militarum forces other than those that have the largest of human specimens (and those would still tend to be much smaller than a fully developed Space Marine).

I could see this being a previously undisclosed 2nd Founding Successor of the Raven Guard, most likely; or even a Successor of one of the Chapters created from the Raven Guard in the 2nd Founding (if you want to stretch it out to one of the other earlier foundings). Realistically, the Chapter's name, and icon don't really matter except in terms of what appeals to you. It might even be interesting to use a twist on the concept, looking at any of a number of real world historical fighting forces. For example, the common picture of the ninja involves black pajamas , but the real ninja (or shinobi, if you prefer) could be found in a variety of garb. Alternately, you might look to Viking berzerkers, the Sicari, the Ismaili Assassins, Robert's Rangers, the Boers, etc. I'm not saying to make ninja Space Marines, mind you - just that you can draw upon some elements of real world historical pragmatic forces without overtly copying any one.

In fact, another DIY Chapter that your concept reminds me of is the Black Eagles by @blackoption (an Ultramarines Successor!).

[Trevak Dal]

I think why the Alpha Legion is my favorite Legion inspite of its dumb name is because of those old index astartes articles that talked about how they trained (recruits trained as squads)

 

I was (and still am) big into the lore of the Halo universe back then, and it was how the Spartans were trained.

 

But Spartans (and Space Marines even more so) are not standard military. The standard military very best look like the White guys they put up against the Harlem Globetrotters when compared to Spartans and Astartes ("Spartans do in hours what takes the army weeks" and "Give me 100 space marines, barring that a thousand other troops")

 

They just aren't built for the standard special tactics that normal humans do. Delta Force/Storm Troopers would transition through buildings.

 

Space Marines would drop pod into the building and come out shooting, advancing and smashing any and all enemy resistance (in the fluff where bolters are like eldar guns).

 

They most certainly can do the standard military tactics...but it is beyond them because they are beyond the limitations of a normal human frame of existence.

 

Going back to video games, I was very surprised at the mission in Black Ops 3 where the player character is basically being trained in the Matrix about how to use his new transhuman deus ex body and powers.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

They most certainly can do the standard military tactics...but it is beyond them because they are beyond the limitations of a normal human frame of existence.

I'd more say, rather than certain things being beneath them, or them being beyond a certain range of operations, that it's more accurate to say their abilities, training and wargear as a whole allow them to transcend traditional limitations of soldiers in the field as we see them today.

They essentially have a whole suite of tools and firepower, as well as personal protection of a (as I keep quoting around the place) modern Bradley fighting vehicle, and this gives them an extreme amount of scope and latitude of deployment and operation when dealing with any threat.

I think we're essentially talking about the same thing, but as anyone who's gotten into a true honest-to-goodness scrum that you might not walk away from, there is no such thing as anything, tactically, operationally or even at a basic level to make use of in your environment that you'd consider beneath you.

I get jumped clearing a house on a job? I hit them with anything available. Mag light, knee, elbow, ashtray within reach, sidearm if it's drawn. in that moment nothing comes between you and survival. You naturally give 120% effort to get through it and given how Astartes are trained, even down to how they physically function and are equipped (which affects the psychology of a warrior) I'd more imagine them being totally committed, giving 120% to whatever battle they are a part of and doing whatever is necessary to win it.

*Edit* The NSW Police Force actually did a true breakdown of moment to moment physiological effects on the body when in an extreme or life-threatening situation, I should see if I can find the data and post it.

It's just one more thing in your favour as a Space Marine. Basically the human body operates at true 100% efficiency (which is more than you use day to day usually, for anything) for only a few seconds. At which point the body starts to degrade, muscles lose strength, the overload of adrenaline rushing through your system starts to affect motor function and mental accuracy. Some senses start to shut down as the body tries to keep you operating, limiting energy expenditure to only what it thinks you need (another symptom being tunnel vision).

Anyway I'm paraphrasing actual data so I should stop before I misremember something and someone has to inform me I've buggered it up!

[Grand Master Belial]

There is an official chapter that is known to use camouflage and they are the Executioners. Perhaps they could be worth a look. 

 

When I looked through the first post, I saw a few chapters that would be viable in the list. Raven Guard certainly, but there are links to the Black Templars (Imperial Fists), Executioners (another Fists Successor), the Dark Angels with their distrust and chaplain use plus being a divergent chapter and there really is no reason to not exclude the Ultramarines. Even the Blood Angels have a nod with the jump infantry and also the chaplain angle. I almost want them to be Ultramarines because the Omega symbol of the Ultras is the counter to the Alpha Legion.

 

In terms of names and inspirations going on the pairs or dualities, I come back to Two-Faced Janus or the black and white faced Hel of Norse mythology or the Gemini Twins. If the camouflage thing were to be tossed, I can almost see a split halved paint scheme with the reverse for the pairings. With the idea of shadows, perhaps the half split could be down the side of the marine instead of the traditional down symmetrical middle. For example the prime marine would have Red on his front with black on his back but the shadow would have the reverse and be black on the front and red on the back. eh, I am just brainstorming.

 

An issue that may present itself is the limitations on Special/Heavy weapons as only ONE is allowed per Tactical squad. Either your Tactical squads would pair up the Specials/Heavys (House Rule for games) or would shun them entirely. Actually, there was an old precedent to have two specials in a Tactical squad, but I don't know if it still stands. Devastators split evenly and would cover the heavies. 

 

To go along with the pairing system, I may borrow from the movie Pacific Rim and the drift compatibility. In particular, the bo fight to discover who was drift compatible. When a marine loses his second in battle or to promotion, secondment, etc.., they will return to find someone who is their pair in battle. They will have ritual battles to see who is similar to the marine and flow with him in battle so that they do not have to think because the other is there to cover the other side. In this way, the pair may be of different ages, levels of experience but they are so similar in combat that they act with one mind. 

 

In terms of leadership, if not 2 Sergeants then what about a Sergeant and Corporal/Squad Leader like in older fluff. Captains would have their Lieutenant (acting as the Sergeant in the Command Squad) as their pairing and as both would be present for the planning, both would know the plan. Should the Captain fall, the Lieutenant is right there to lead the men the rest of the way. 

 

Well I just tossed up a whole bunch of ideas. Hopefully, you like a couple.

[Minigiant]

Now I am struggling too Kastor Krieg to write a reasonable marine chapter. Now instead of Pairs I can see training in units potentially. Explaination = Tribalism

 

Modern day Tribalism in the Gulf states. Take Saudi Arabia for example try creating a national identity with the idea of the super tribe. Then society is broken down into more and more sub sect of tribes. What if, your chapter on your homeworld is the super tribe

[Xenith]

Great post from erasus there:

 

The whole "Reasonable marines" thing is flawed from the outset, as the reason they do not fight like modern armies is/was the fact that each marine is a walking near immortal tank with a basic side arm that shoots RPG's. They don't have to. Part of their psy-ops/shock and awe is the fact that they let their enemies know exactly what they are fighting. See the numerous examples of works coming into compliance as soon as they hear space marines are getting involved.

 

That said, raptors combat tactics are probably your best bet, with the scout centric formations in Kauyon.

 

Consider a 30k recon rite of war also, that's a pretty cool way to play an army. Models in Scott armour with camo get +3 to their cover save T1.

[Minigiant]

Now as someone who is also trying to make Reasonable marines work, this idea I wanna discuss

 

The whole "Reasonable marines" thing is flawed from the outset, as the reason they do not fight like modern armies is/was the fact that each marine is a walking near immortal tank with a basic side arm that shoots RPG's. They don't have to. Part of their psy-ops/shock and awe is the fact that they let their enemies know exactly what they are fighting. See the numerous examples of works coming into compliance as soon as they hear space marines are getting involved.
 

 

While they are indeed walking Bradley tanks, their standard tactics work great against small squishy targets, regular humans, eldar etc but in modern combat, tactics have to significantly alter when facing an army with proper anti-tank capabilities. Surely marines would have to do the same, say when facing a Chaos space marine

[EesiOh]

Now as someone who is also trying to make Reasonable marines work, this idea I wanna discuss

 

The whole "Reasonable marines" thing is flawed from the outset, as the reason they do not fight like modern armies is/was the fact that each marine is a walking near immortal tank with a basic side arm that shoots RPG's. They don't have to. Part of their psy-ops/shock and awe is the fact that they let their enemies know exactly what they are fighting. See the numerous examples of works coming into compliance as soon as they hear space marines are getting involved.

 

 

While they are indeed walking Bradley tanks, their standard tactics work great against small squishy targets, regular humans, eldar etc but in modern combat, tactics have to significantly alter when facing an army with proper anti-tank capabilities. Surely marines would have to do the same, say when facing a Chaos space marine

or a pissed of broadside battlesuit

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Now as someone who is also trying to make Reasonable marines work, this idea I wanna discuss

 

The whole "Reasonable marines" thing is flawed from the outset, as the reason they do not fight like modern armies is/was the fact that each marine is a walking near immortal tank with a basic side arm that shoots RPG's. They don't have to. Part of their psy-ops/shock and awe is the fact that they let their enemies know exactly what they are fighting. See the numerous examples of works coming into compliance as soon as they hear space marines are getting involved.

 

 

While they are indeed walking Bradley tanks, their standard tactics work great against small squishy targets, regular humans, eldar etc but in modern combat, tactics have to significantly alter when facing an army with proper anti-tank capabilities. Surely marines would have to do the same, say when facing a Chaos space marine

 

 

See I don't understand this approach. You're assuming that just because they are built primarily for shock and awe that it precludes them having the ability, training and equipment to adapt to the foe at hand.

Their overall doctrine of war is quite literally, go for the jugular in terms of dealing with the enemy combatants. You seem to be assuming that just because of their primary modus operandi is to kick the enemy in the teeth before they can react they would throw poorly equipped troops at a problem just because it fits their operating style.

 

For some Chapters, such as the Flesh Tearers, I'd agree, but it's not quite the issue you seem to be turning it in to.

 

If Astartes chapters were made up of only Tactical marines and/or Assault Marines I might see your point, but they have a wide range of vehicles, heavy weapons and deployment options to deal with multiple foes. Their success against enemies such as the ancient and powerful Eldar are a great example.

 

You'd have to be the most poorly trained and able commander to refuse to adapt to changing forces and foes on the battlefield.

 

 

Let's take the Broadside for a moment. Yes they have Railguns and the tau have advanced plasma weaponry that can melt Astartes.

If you were an Astartes commander and you were facing these kinds of foes, what would you do? Throw Rhinos and tactical marines down the barrel of the Broadsides?

 

I'd like to think you'd redeploy your forces. You'd play to your strengths and the enemies weaknesses. A three man crew of broadsides taking potshots at your men? Assault Marines will deal with them nicely. Fire Warriors being a pain? Razorback/Rhino advance with regular marines will shut them down. Battlesuits zeroing in on your commander? Fast moving armour like Predators will keep them occupied.

 

(It's been a while since I played the TT game so my solutions might be a bit obsolete, but I'm not really approaching this from a Rulebook perspective).

 

 

You also think of the scale of 40k. You have a Chapter numbering around 1500 or so marines give or take. You're usually deploying in numbers ranging from 10 to 100 men, fighting against forces outnumbering them 100, 1000 or even 1000000 to 1.

On the flipside they also face forces such as the horrific Daemons of Chaos, other Traitor marines, the ancient and powerful Eldar and now the ridiculously, fanboyishly favourited, technological wizards of the Tau.

 

Regardless of which end of the scale you sit on, your limited numbers in deployment are put to their best use when playing to their strengths and their strengths rely on overwhelming aggression and violence of action. It's not enough to simply kill your enemies, you have make them give up, you have to force them to abandon their fight.

 

I'd like to see the other end of this, to see what your argument is for the alternative method of war and how it applies to Astartes.

[Minigiant]

I will discuss this point, see where it takes us

 

 

You'd have to be the most poorly trained and able commander to refuse to adapt to changing forces and foes on the battlefield.

 

Space marines have some of the best if not the best military training, they will also be educated in forms of warfare such a guerrilla warfare if only to understand how to conduct counter insurgency operations

 

Lets remove tabletop game from the equation for a minute. Take Vietnam a far superior technological force (USA) immediately beat back the Vietcong. In response to overwhelming force the vietcong converted to a guerrilla war. The same can be seen in the gulf wars, though less clear cut.

 

Now what if the Space Marines come against such a force, where unless they start conducting a guerrilla war then they will surely lose

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I'm not sure I understand the question.

 

If they were faced with overwhelming superiority of enemy numbers/technology/something something something dark side, then any competant commander would adapt to meet those changing circumstances.

 

Let's take the White Scars and the Raven Guard as examples here.

 

Both Chapters are capable of, and do perform lightning raids before fading from the field. The Raven Guard are especially adept at strike and fade tactics. Given the type of war you're describing the Raven Guard would be perfect candidates to fight it.

 

Some chapters would rather end the campaign in one fell swoop rather than skulk in the shadows, yes this is true. But given their situation as you've laid out, being on the 'VC' end of a guerilla war, cutting off the head of the serpent is not a bad plan. If the rest of the enemies overwhelming force is left floundering your allies, or future reinforcements are in a fantastic position.

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at, maybe I'm just too tired right now, sorry to be difficult.

[Minigiant]

I guess what I am saying is that we both agree Space Marines can adapt their tactics. It is to the extent they adapt them that we differ.

 

Now I am paraphrasing but you would say they adapt their operational tactics and thats as far as it goes. In short Top down

 

Myself and I am sure others that want to see reasonable marines is that tactics can change on a unit level. In short bottom up

[Erasus]

From a military view the VC lost, the KDR for them was horrendous.

The reason the US pulled out, and in a similar fashion to modern conflicts, they failed to win the "hearts and minds" of the people, they lacked local support.

In 40k this is irrelevant. World rebels? Crush it completely, there are so many people around that it's easier to wipe everything out and start afresh with a batch of colonists as evidenced numerous times.

 

If an enemy runs a guerillia war on the Astartes then good luck, any soldier you have is (one on one) nothing compared to a lone Marine. Guerillia wars don't work against them. You need to provide heavier resistance. Besides it'd be a matter of time til they find something to smash until you're unable to continue.

 

Everyone must remember that the Astartes are not strictly human. They are different. They are superior in every way. Mentally and physically. They do not need to conserve strength because they do not live to conserve strength. They do not think of preserving their lives because they live to fight. They are battering rams, whether the enemy knows they're about to be hit or not.

 

Let's look at two opposite Chapters that in my mind encapsulate the ends of the scale. The Raven Guard and the Minotaurs.

The RG would eliminate outlying posts in secret before striking the command centre or other strategic target.

The M would just smash everything in a frontal assault.

Both strike hard and fast, some just prepare more before hand.

 

The Space Marines are NOT the Delta Force/SAS/Spetsnaz or any other special force we know, these units are akin to Tempestus Scions.

 

They are the way they are. Adding real world logic to them does not make them better because real world logic does not necessarily work in 40k, please refer to the infamous paragraph in the front of every black library book.

 

And in my opinion Reasonables are dull and bland to read about when compared to the Chapter's with strengths and weaknesses. As an audience we love seeing the Flesh Tearers battle the Thirst and the Space Wolves cover up the Wulfen, we love seeing the Dark Angels hunt their own and act as bad guys because the ends justify the means. The Eldar arrogance and the Orks stupidity. I'm willing to bet that the Ultramarines were slated for a long time because they were supposed to be Reasonable by being the "jacks of all trades".

 

Bottom line is this

 

If you want to make a Reasonable Chapter then do it.

However do not expect those who have accepted the 40k universe as it is to accept your modification. You might as well tell Star Wars fans that Jedi should all wear armour and have grenades or a Star Trek fan that the Federation shouldn't send people out with no armour. It's makes sense here in the real world but it's not the world these characters live in.