Reasonable Marines - looking for inspiration

[Minigiant]

If an enemy runs a guerillia war on the Astartes then good luck, any soldier you have is (one on one) nothing compared to a lone Marine. Guerillia wars don't work against them. You need to provide heavier resistance. Besides it'd be a matter of time til they find something to smash until you're unable to continue.

The closest enemy that I can think of that could stand one vs one versus an Astartes and conduct a guerrilla war would be the Alpha Legion

 

 

And in my opinion Reasonables are dull and bland to read about when compared to the Chapter's with strengths and weaknesses. As an audience we love seeing the Flesh Tearers battle the Thirst and the Space Wolves cover up the Wulfen, we love seeing the Dark Angels hunt their own and act as bad guys because the ends justify the means. The Eldar arrogance and the Orks stupidity. I'm willing to bet that the Ultramarines were slated for a long time because they were supposed to be Reasonable by being the "jacks of all trades".

I have seen this sentiment everywhere but there is a desire for a proper Reasonable marines chapter, the amount of threads I have read on here the last week or so really does show people want this. These people dont think Reasonable marines are dull and bland. What they think is that they are an even cooler version of special forces

 

The Space Marines are NOT the Delta Force/SAS/Spetsnaz or any other special force we know, these units are akin to Tempestus Scions.

A radical idea and I am certain would be shot down immediately would be to recruit a chapter from the Tempestus Scions

[Erasus]

Ah yes the Alpha Legion, my favourite Traitor Legion.

 

Whenever you read about the Sons of the Hydra it always mentions how devious and manipulative they are, how secretive and how they use ruses and bluffs. However, when you actually read about what they do it's the same as everyone else except that have a large number of cults running sabotage missions, indoctrination and propaganda. It's the mortals that do all these espionage related tasks and the Alpha Legion do what Astartes do best, because they're Astartes.

 

You're right they would run one hell of a guerilla war, my own Chapter was nearly destroyed by the exact same thing. But again they still strike out like Astartes.

 

The Reasonables desire is recent on this site and sporadic at best on others. As far as I know it exists in two threads including this one, the other is your own thread.

 

There is nothing wrong with acting like the Raven Guard or the Raptors, the problem lies in that extra step, trying to make them something else that doesn't feel like Astartes. These warriors are supposed to be gods of war not highly trained humans.

 

If you want a group that is like the special forces then use a group like the special forces, the Imperial Guard, the Stormtroopers, the Tempestus Scions. Even the Deathwatch. They have everything that you and I have discussed before on other threads.

 

 

Unfortunately that last idea wouldn't work, mostly because the Chapter's recruit people when they're children so they grow into the modifications, the Scions are all grown men. That and the training they receive if post-recruitment age as well.

[Olis]

 

The Space Marines are NOT the Delta Force/SAS/Spetsnaz or any other special force we know, these units are akin to Tempestus Scions.

 

A radical idea and I am certain would be shot down immediately would be to recruit a chapter from the Tempestus Scions

 

 

Allegedly... the Ultramarines have recruited from a Tempestus Scion regiment before. Allegedly. Bearing in mind that the information, in-universe, is hear-say so the chances of it actually, genuinely being the case are not good. But if this was to be the case with your own Chapter, I suggest that the process be considered a one-off or incredibly rare and that they'd choose the youngest of the Scions (seeing as military age in Imperium is teenager-ish years vs Space marine recruitment being usually fourteen or under). 

 

Although there is precedent, it's incredibly tenuous. Treat the idea with great care and use such information sparingly. If you do not them using the idea would make your Chapter feel like a 'Special Snowflake'.

[Teetengee]

Also, I would like to point out that reasonable marines and flaws are not mutually exclusive.

Maybe the chapter is obsessed with minimizing casualties, to the point that they have lost engagements for not moving quickly enough, for spending too much time on contingencies.

[Minigiant]

 

 

The Space Marines are NOT the Delta Force/SAS/Spetsnaz or any other special force we know, these units are akin to Tempestus Scions.

 

A radical idea and I am certain would be shot down immediately would be to recruit a chapter from the Tempestus Scions

 

 

Allegedly... the Ultramarines have recruited from a Tempestus Scion regiment before. Allegedly. Bearing in mind that the information, in-universe, is hear-say so the chances of it actually, genuinely being the case are not good. But if this was to be the case with your own Chapter, I suggest that the process be considered a one-off or incredibly rare and that they'd choose the youngest of the Scions (seeing as military age in Imperium is teenager-ish years vs Space marine recruitment being usually fourteen or under). 

 

Although there is precedent, it's incredibly tenuous. Treat the idea with great care and use such information sparingly. If you do not them using the idea would make your Chapter feel like a 'Special Snowflake'.

 

That may just be the Reasonable marines 'in'. Thank you for sharing that

[Olis]

 

 

 

The Space Marines are NOT the Delta Force/SAS/Spetsnaz or any other special force we know, these units are akin to Tempestus Scions.

 

A radical idea and I am certain would be shot down immediately would be to recruit a chapter from the Tempestus Scions

 

 

Allegedly... the Ultramarines have recruited from a Tempestus Scion regiment before. Allegedly. Bearing in mind that the information, in-universe, is hear-say so the chances of it actually, genuinely being the case are not good. But if this was to be the case with your own Chapter, I suggest that the process be considered a one-off or incredibly rare and that they'd choose the youngest of the Scions (seeing as military age in Imperium is teenager-ish years vs Space marine recruitment being usually fourteen or under). 

 

Although there is precedent, it's incredibly tenuous. Treat the idea with great care and use such information sparingly. If you do not them using the idea would make your Chapter feel like a 'Special Snowflake'.

 

That may just be the Reasonable marines 'in'. Thank you for sharing that

 

Just don't make it their regular recruiting method. ^_^

[Minigiant]

That may just be the Reasonable marines 'in'. Thank you for sharing that

Just don't make it their regular recruiting method.

Hmm not so much of an in then

[Minigiant]

That may just be the Reasonable marines 'in'. Thank you for sharing that

Just don't make it their regular recruiting method.

What about just for their founding, or is that too much

[Olis]

That may just be the Reasonable marines 'in'. Thank you for sharing that

Just don't make it their regular recruiting method.

What about just for their founding, or is that too much

I hate to say it but... yeah.

[Minigiant]

I really hope Kastor Krieg comments, feel like I am derailing their thread, but I do feel like for the first time, this is a thread where reasonable marines are progressing

 

 

I hate to say it but... yeah.

 

Thought so

 

I do think they need to have some involvement in the founding, just to justify their continued recruitment throughout their history. What about a lot during the founding with the remaining coming from the same home world as the Tempestus Scion regiment in question

[Olis]

I do think they need to have some involvement in the founding, just to justify their continued recruitment throughout their history. What about a lot during the founding with the remaining coming from the same home world as the Tempestus Scion regiment in question

 

Are you asking if you could have ex-Tempestus Scions as part of the Founding of the Chapter? I don't see how that could be feasible, given how Foundings supposedly occur. The example I gave was a rumour and, if true, an isolated event. I don't think anything but another isolated event in a similar vein is going to sound plausible - continued recruitment from Scion regiments over time or their use for a Chapter Founding ventures into 'Special Snowflake' territory far too easily. Like I said earlier, using the alleged precedent needs to be done sparingly.  

[Minigiant]

How would you do it then?

 

Have you got any good links on how a chapter is founded?

[Olis]

Make it an isolated event that's not officially recognised. Perhaps have the nobles of world such-and-such boast that it was their Scions that were bestowed the honour and a distant family member (4th cousin's nephew on his wife's side, or some such) is now a space marine. It's basically hot air and boasting used to elevate their social status. Outside of that, nothing is confirmed, nor does the Chapter wish to comment on it.

 

Have you got any good links on how a chapter is founded?

 

This thread might help.

[Minigiant]

1. X Company from Y Chapter fights alongside Tempestus Scion

2. Captain from X company becomes Chapter Master of Z Chapter

3. Requests and handful of recruits be selected from 1

4. Official sources lost during Age of Apo

5. Rumours live on through Olis example

[Erasus]

Hello!

 

On a break at work

[Kastor Krieg]

Oooooooh-kay. Been only lurking the thread since I barely had the time to sit down and post a proper reply. I got a moment now and since I'm being called out already, I'm back typing.

I am going to stick to my guns and have this Chapter remain "Reasonable Marines by way of Special Forces". If anyone would like to discuss why RM are a bad / out-of-character idea for Marines - please start a new thread, thanks. Commentary here is more than welcome, but only as long as it is for constructive development of my Chapter AS a RM Chapter. Appreciated!

With this out of the way, here are a few bullet points again

• I can surely imagine times and situations where a "silent and unseen" approach is more appropriate than "making the sky burn with droppods". A world or area under enemy sway, where enemies guarding objectives might have anti-Marine resources but would need to activate them / move them to protect the objective, for example (Renegade / Traitor Marines, heavier weapons, etc) and suddenly you need half a Chapter to deal with the target, with a lot of predicted Marine casualties. Send in a pair or two of Marines and they will Commando their way in and out without rousing up an all-out war. You always have the option to make it rain if they fail.
  
• Information / espionage war & changing livery - Chapter is low-strength maybe and doesn't want enemy in area X to know they've committed in area Y? hence in Y they dress up as another Chapter fighting in the area, reducing the retaliation risk at X during deployment.
  
  Or, in similar vein, Chapter is low-strength at half a company for example, but dresses up as 3rd Company Imperial Fists during deployment in area X of the planet and then as 6th Company Imperial Fists in area Z and then 1st Company Crimson Fists in area W - enemy is all "ZOMG! Three companies of Fists and Kantor is here! FLY, YOU FOOLS!"
  
  First is tricky and smart, they can use a pattern of livery that no Chapter wears at all, how the enemy should know? Second is less honourable, but no less cunning. Make a lot of noise, appear a lot stronger, do your job and then fade.
  
• An idea came to me - what if the Chapter is fleet based, out in the dark outer edge of the Galaxy, like Ghoul Stars, low on Power Armour or Techmarines and their mainstay are Scouts instead of Tacticals? They've adapted to this problem, scavenged their PA for non-powered Scout Armour and there you go.
  
• Similarly, what if they have as many PA as they need and want, but for some reason Chapter philosophy is very challenge-oriented and considers PA Tacticals to be "easy mode Marines"? What if THAT is the entry level for a new Marine? First tacticals and THEN once you earn it, Scouts? Those that don't yet earn being Scouts or it's not up their alley, doesn't play to their preference / talents, act as Devs or Assaults? A Chapter whose First Company is all Scouts, while 10th is all "TDA / Centurion Brutes", who are sometimes necessary, but are not that much valued because they make for poor infiltrators?
  
  That could make for a pretty unique and at the same time not so much snowflakey Chapter.

[Erasus]

Ok I will leave my personal distaste for Reasonables out of this thread. Your thread your rules.

 

Space Marines are used when the war is way past all-out. If they're not attacking then they're defending a zone that millions of Guards are considered too weak for.

 

For your second point, wouldn't enemy in X still take the fight to Y regardless of which Chapter is there? Why split an understrength force?

 

While the idea of your 3rd point is cool, wouldn't the enemy realise that by the time Company strikes at Z that they are absent from X and Y. If the enemy were being totally defensive then it makes more sense. But in most cases the types of enemy Space Marines face aren't the kind to run off because they appears to be a lot on the other team. They're usually committed, unless it's Eldar.

 

I like the sound of the last point. The Space Wolves have something similar for their Scouts, this is due to some Wolves just preferred to hunt alone. Build on that last point.

Is the rest of the Chapter relatively Codex though? Or do they operate like Raptors except the 1st and 10th Companies?

[Kastor Krieg]

I'm not saying this is their usual modus operandi. I'm saying they are not above doing that when there's potential profit or a chance to avoid a loss throught a cunning stunt like that.

I would say they've read through what of Codex Astartes was available to them (since we know from Grimaldus that event Templars have a copy and appreciate the wisdom there, but all known copies are incomplete in various ways) and just like the Templars they did not comply with it, instead doing a pick-and-choose through it. Some parts like scout warfare spoke to them more. Maybe they prefer to think about themselves as more of the old Legion Recon Marines [which calls back to this image = http://www.anvilindustry.co.uk/image/cache/data/a-new/black-ops/sniper-team-800x500.jpg ] and act in such capacity, first and foremost.

Maybe, being understrength, they cooperate with other, more Codex Chapters on a "we recon and provide assassination / intelligence, you strike and provide backbone" basis, making both sides stronger? There is the idea of Marines not only as "hammer and anvil" type of warfare, but also "tip of the spear", "decapitating strike". Maybe their schtick is that they aren't numerous enought or do not have enough of a fleet / resources to support a Guard advance as part of the line or a pod strike, but they can sneak in, kill off the enemy command, sabotage main structures and make the common goal that much easier.

I'm also VERY tempted by making them actually Ultramarine successors, with all this Aeonid Thield "theoretical / practical" type of thinking, taken to "11".

[Kastor Krieg]

Another idea for particular Chapter specialty - world infiltration.

A battle barge translates into the enemy taken system, be it one with a Chaos forge world, a Cult army training grounds, one with a Waaagh brewing up, one given over by it's governor to the Tau or one with a Necron Tomb recently awoken. It glides through the system dark and cold, minimal power, all dark and silent, slingshotting itself past the target planet as it has already done on several nominal scanning passes. Just for a brief moment a power spike ignites the teleportation device. The kill team materializes on the surface, ready to strike or commence sabotage for months or years, until the darkened ship slingshots past again and can pick them back up.

Imagine the Chaos taken Imperial worlds that were not daemon worlds yet, like the one in Gaunt's Ghosts, the one with the Khorne cult and wirewolves, with the swamps. The team would recon on the ground, the team would organize human opposition and sabotage. The team would assassinate enemy leadership and destroy enemy assets, paving the way for Guard and/or Marine assault and re-taking of the planet as intact as possible.

Their way is to enable others to avoid grinding themselves down in attrition war. Their way is to enable others to fight smarter. They are the force multiplier for any Imperial force, rather than the force itself.

[Kastor Krieg]

This goes back to a part of the initial appeal. Pathfinders.

[paulJam]

Their way is to enable others to avoid grinding themselves down in attrition war. Their way is to enable others to fight smarter. They are the force multiplier for any Imperial force, rather than the force itself.

this is the essence of reasonable marines.

not camo, not less than lethal weapons, not sneaking about or excessive use of cover, and definitely not negotiation.

they have the ability, determination and courage to do balls-out charges, drop pod assault, or heroic last stands but they also have the ability to choose not to... if this is not the best course of action that will cause the most damage to the enemy looking at all available resources and risk vs reward.

[Grand Master Belial]

How about this as an idea. They are a fleet based chapter that is out on the the fringes of the Imperium. Where they used to be 1000 strong, they suffered some catastrophic event that left them severely debilitated and understrength. There are very few human worlds to gain recruits and even those worlds are sparsely populated as well. It would be several hundred years to gain enough recruits get to half strength. In the meantime, they have become familiar with several outposts used by Rogue Traders and other alien races to trade. Shedding their power armor, they are able to go onto these outposts to get their supplies as well as gain intel about events in the area. If they perceive a threat then they can take covert methods of getting down to the planet. Perhaps, even working with the Eldar Rangers and Pathfinders to use their Webway portals to get to a planets surface. From there, they will act as a small Kill Team to take out the perceived threat.

[Kastor Krieg]

How about this as an idea. They are a fleet based chapter that is out on the the fringes of the Imperium. Where they used to be 1000 strong, they suffered some catastrophic event that left them severely debilitated and understrength. There are very few human worlds to gain recruits and even those worlds are sparsely populated as well. It would be several hundred years to gain enough recruits get to half strength. In the meantime, they have become familiar with several outposts used by Rogue Traders and other alien races to trade. Shedding their power armor, they are able to go onto these outposts to get their supplies as well as gain intel about events in the area. If they perceive a threat then they can take covert methods of getting down to the planet. Perhaps, even working with the Eldar Rangers and Pathfinders to use their Webway portals to get to a planets surface. From there, they will act as a small Kill Team to take out the perceived threat.

I don't want to deus ex machina a catastrophic event. I'd much rather "see, we went for attrition war and this is where it got us, NOWHERE". So from this day, they play smart.

 

And no, no xenos on board. Nu-uh.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

 

I don't want to deus ex machina a catastrophic event. I'd much rather "see, we went for attrition war and this is where it got us, NOWHERE". So from this day, they play smart.

 

 

I see this a a lot, why is everyone assuming that if they aren't reasonable marines, they just throw themselves into the fires of war willy nilly, attrition or no and hope for the best?

 

Everyone seems to forget that the battlefields of the 41st Millennium aren't the battlefields of modern day earth. What if it's just so that the Astartes method of war is quite frankly the most cost effective overall considering the type of enemies they face?

 

What if taking the slow, secret war doesn't get you anywhere? What if the scale of engagements that Astartes are called to deal with are not those possibly resolved by the way of war used by modern special forces?

 

Think about the extreme violence of action that Astartes are famed for, that in the Imperial war machine cannot be replicated by anyone else. Think about the level of threat that has to be reached before a system/general/governor/inquisitor even considers requesting aid from a Space Marine chapter. Ever remember the line of one particular Inquisitor was quoted as comparing calling in the Astartes second only to Exterminatus?

 

Factor all this together. Once the threat has reached such an extreme level that the Adeptus Astartes have to arrive to kick in the enemies teeth and win the day?

 

Put it together.

 

The reason reasonable marines don't work for my mind, is because the 41st Millennium isn't reasonable to begin with. Do you see where this ends up?

 

 

I don't hate Reasonable Marines, and I don't dislike the concept I simply don't believe that a strict adherence to modern special forces doctrine is far, far too narrow of a theme for a Space Marine chapter to be saddled with, especially given the nature of both the Astartes and the universe they reside within in general.

 

Now the Raven Guard and the Raptors are good examples of how this has been somewhat successfully applied to Space Marines.

 

You can go down a similar route if you like, if you want. This is something I am pulling from a previous chapter idea of mine, the Blazing Sons.

 

You can apply your marines as force multipliers for guard regiments and conflicts across the Imperium, detaching squads and company elements to fight in various warzones as they see fit, attempting to bring these conflicts as a whole to a speedier conclusion, affecting wars across the entire (sector/system/whatever).

 

However, I think that even if they push for this particular and incredibly unusual method of deployment, they would fight like Space Marines. Even if they are attached to a regular Imperial deployment to bring speed and power to the overall campaign, they're still going to be thrown into the situations and deployments that only they are equipped and trained to handle without extreme casualties.

 

Either way you cut it, they are built to go into the sharpest end of the war and kick the enemies teeth in.

[Kastor Krieg]

I kindly ask to please take the discussion on whether RM works or not elsewhere :)

+ This Chapter is hereby declared Rationalis Prudens +