Sydonian dragoons vs balistarii in War convocation

[Master Avoghai]

Hi there, just a quick question regarding the compulsory units in a war convocation and more particulary the walkers.

 

First let me say that I consider this unit as a tax and not something really good. If it was not compulsory, be sure it would be the first unit I'd get rid of.

 

But now that I'm obliged to field it to profit from the goodness of the free upgrades, I'd better get the best of all.

 

I've chosen the balistarii with TL lascan to act like a small tank hunter just like I'm used to play my lonely attack bikes with MM in my ravenwing. It makes a small independant 55pts unit

 

However, I saw lots of war convocation lists including sydonian dragoons. Those squads are often 2-walkers strong (hence twice as expensive) and I don't manage to understand the use. Blocking units in CC?

 

Could you please explain the advantages of the sydonians except the rule of cool?

 

Side question : considering a war convocation ignores get hot, is there a benefit to field plasma cannon on the kataphron or is the grav cannon better in any way?

 

Thanks in advance guys!

 

;)

[Tyriks]

The dragoons are actually really useful if played right. The army in general lacks competent CC units, so that's one reason to take them. But think about this: on a charge, a dragoon gets 4 strength 8 attacks at initiative 6. Since they're with a taser weapon, a roll of 6 means two bonus hits on the enemy. With the phosphor serpenta, they can reroll their already awesome charge range (if they wound). They're a pretty sweet unit.

 

As for your kataphrons, it just depends what you're up against. Grav pours out a ton of shots, but isn't effective against low armor hordes. Plasma, however, is a high strength low ap blast, so it's good against pretty much anything, but will get fewer hits on some units.

[Master Avoghai]

But do they actually reach CC? Because with A11 and 2HP I wonder if this case is likely to happen...

[MagicHat]

Dragoons can benefit from the Canticles like crazy. 

2+ cover saves are great, and 2 of them with the Strength canticle and +1 WS have a knight-dropping potential. Not bad for a 90 point unit.

 

I did take a unit of Kataphrons with plasma in a recent tournament. We were requested to bring nicer lists since there would be beginners participating. Very disappointing against the veteran players, although they did decently against the one beginner I faced. Grav would have served me a thousand times better.

 

EDIT: Dragoons are cheap and, frankly, not viewed as threatening. If the opponent do shoot at them instead of say Ruststalkers, it is usually for the best IMO.

[WarriorFish]

I'm curious about these units in regards to a pure Skitarii force. Could someone break down their good builds and uses etc? I think I'm mostly caught up on the relative size of the model and associated real World cost so I don't have a clue where to start.

[Kilofix]

I run 3 Dragoons at 2K points. The always reach CC in Turn 2 and put out a ton of hits.

 

Course, my opponent is usually distracted trying to kill my 6 Grav Kats.

[Aethyran]

I'm curious about these units in regards to a pure Skitarii force. Could someone break down their good builds and uses etc? I think I'm mostly caught up on the relative size of the model and associated real World cost so I don't have a clue where to start.

Concerning Dragoons, if you can get them to charge into something, anything, they are excellent and will make back the points. They are cheap at 45 points.

 

Forgot to mention, they also make a nice cheap bubble due to the size of the base and fast units to hold objs. Helped me table that Grey Knight player lol. 

 

Here is its size compared with a Sentinel. 

 

 

 

[Kilofix]

Also, note that Dragoons are AV11 all around. While that isn't exactly a tank, it is tougher than say a Land Speeder and you can't Glance it with Bolters. Dragoons also have perma Cover Save and Dunestrider.

[SevenPlagues]

I can't speak strongly enough in favour of Dragoons. I'd respectfully suggest they are quite the opposite of a 'tax' - I would take them even if you didn't have to as part of a War Convocation! Granted, my experiences with them are coloured by getting to avail myself of two turns of 2+ cover saves provided by the WC, which I feel is integral to them being viable. In a pure Skitarii force their utility is significantly diminished. Taken without Canticles means it will be extremely difficult to get them across the table in one piece, given their paper-thin armour. Taken with a 2+ cover save for a turn (or two!), they absorb ludicrous amounts of enemy fire and have a decent chance of making in into assault. I would take them ten times out of ten in a choice between them and the Ballistarii.

4 S8 attacks on the charge, with hopefully a few extra hits generated by 6s, means a group of 3 will wreck most light vehicles in a single round. I would never run them in groups fewer than 3, as you want at least 2 to hit the enemy intact in order to maximize the impact of their charge. They play exactly like Knights in Fantasy (which I love) - you'd better break the enemy on the charge and cripple their retaliation, or your might be in trouble. If I come off as a little excessively enthused about Dragoons, it is because I am!

[WarriorFish]

That's really useful, thanks guys :tu: I think it's mostly the base size that was throwing me, they're not too big otherwise. Now if only they were cheaper on the wallet...

[Master Avoghai]

That's really useful, thanks guys :tu: I think it's mostly the base size that was throwing me, they're not too big otherwise. Now if only they were cheaper on the wallet...

Agree with all ...

 

I've never thought about the cover canticle at first turn...

 

I think however that the price tag of this unit is too high which prevents me to get more than 2... And that's actually why I've asked the question : I don't want to buy an expensive kit and then chose the worse option.

[WarriorFish]

I think the assault build sounds more useful, AdMech have plenty of shooting otherwise. However there's always that important question: how easy is the kit to magnetise?

[Kilofix]

Difficult to magnetize, difficult....

 

Edit - I should elaborate:

 

Dragoon is:

Right arm with Lance and only one tiny contact point to body

Left arm with hand on Dragoon controls

 

Ballistarii is:

Both hands on weapon handle

Weapon mounted on shield mounted on front rail that has no place for a magnet

 

But, you could buy Sentinels and put a WFB Lance on it.

[Dread0]

I've been using little dabs of Bluetak or Whitetak with my models. It doesn't always look the best but seems to be the best way to swap loadouts.

[Master Avoghai]

Difficult to magnetize, difficult....

 

Edit - I should elaborate:

 

Dragoon is:

Right arm with Lance and only one tiny contact point to body

Left arm with hand on Dragoon controls

 

Ballistarii is:

Both hands on weapon handle

Weapon mounted on shield mounted on front rail that has no place for a magnet

 

But, you could buy Sentinels and put a WFB Lance on it.

Actually I'm wondering :

 

Wouldn't it be simpler to magnet the torso?

 

You get a free torso in the onagers for the cognis stubber but you're actually not forced to use it. Instead you can magnet the torso here and glue the balistarii lascan on it to swap the weapon.

 

Or couldn't...?

[BassWave]

I run 2 pairs of dragoon lancers in all my games, and in war convo, I run the max amount. They are so cheap for what they do, and in a war convo, they become even better. I like too use them to screen my knight. They're tall enough to give the knight a cover save (which can be boosted to a 2+), and they work great to clear a path for the knight to get into enemy lines.

 

I'd love to try out the ballistarii, but I'm still recovering from having bought 4 freaking dragoons... Ughhh my wallet trembles.

[WarriorFish]

I'd love to try out the ballistarii, but I'm still recovering from having bought 4 freaking dragoons... Ughhh my wallet trembles.

I think this is the primary problem... I'll likely get some but the cost means they'll be last to add to my Skitarii!

[Aethyran]

Think it also comes down to, what will you use the ironstriders for and how they synergize (dances) with other components of the army. Rather than tank hunters, I'm using them to counter/ charge with infiltrators, the debuffs coupled the hitting power is incredible, wiped out 15 ork bikers with the warboss. Same effect with vanguard I presume.

 

To me the ballistarii are good as support to more dedicated shooters like the aa onager or kataphron destroyers (pop a vehicle and grav what's inside to death) but not worthy units that will win you the game.

[Kilofix]

 

Difficult to magnetize, difficult....

Edit - I should elaborate:

Dragoon is:

Right arm with Lance and only one tiny contact point to body

Left arm with hand on Dragoon controls

Ballistarii is:

Both hands on weapon handle

Weapon mounted on shield mounted on front rail that has no place for a magnet

But, you could buy Sentinels and put a WFB Lance on it.

Actually I'm wondering :

Wouldn't it be simpler to magnet the torso?

You get a free torso in the onagers for the cognis stubber but you're actually not forced to use it. Instead you can magnet the torso here and glue the balistarii lascan on it to swap the weapon.

Or couldn't...?

Hmm I hadn't thought of that.

 

Yeah you could have:

1 Torso, head, arm with Dragoon Lance

1 Torso, head, arms attached to Balistarii Weapon / Shield

 

Btw, the Outflanking Ironstrider Formation is also pretty good if you have numbers. Like 2x2 Dragoons and 3 Ballistari.

 

The Dragoons have innate Cover, and if you place them in front they give the Ballistarii Cover. The 3 Ballistari then have 6 Twin-Linked reroll to Wound Precision Shots with Autocannon.

 

Your opponent then has to decide to shoot the Ballistarii and get charged in the next turn by the Dragoons or shoot the Dragoons and get shot by the Ballistarii.

[WarriorFish]

That sounds good Avoghai, magnetising torsos is a lot easier plus room for more powerful magnets which would be very useful here. If it's that easy then the kit starts to look like a better deal :)

[Tyriks]

You'd need to model a cloak/robe for the Onager torso.  It ends at the hips in a circle (that's supposed to go in the hatch).

[SevenPlagues]

I guess my view is the sort of shooting the Ballistari puts out is a bit redundant, whereas the Dragoons provide a vitally needed role in our armies - fast assault. I guess it's moreso the opportunity cost of taking them, when you could be taking Dragoons for roughly the same points and the same dollar value.

 

For instance, I don't trust Ruststalkers or Infiltrators to keep enemy assaulters at bay, or to do all the close combat heavy-lifting. An extra Lascannon or Autocannon shot, even well-aimed, will less reliably tip the balance when compared to a strong punch to an enemy unit crossing midfield to get at our shooting elements. Granted, Dragoons are miles higher up on enemy priority lists compared to Ballistari and will have to hit before they get shot up, but they're in my view superior. If you're only going to get a small number of the kits due to their absurdly high monetary kits, I'd recommend modeling them as Sydonian Dragoons.

[Aethyran]

For instance, I don't trust Ruststalkers or Infiltrators to keep enemy assaulters at bay, or to do all the close combat heavy-lifting.

If a man can love a paralympics runner with Edward Scissorhands' hand I'll have Mobil lube ready

I find them to be ridiculously good in to counter charge, charge, CC and did I mention charge? They can hold their own to what we normally expect to be great at CC, Orks, Blood Angels etc. Raise WS to 6 or 7, the enemy just reply with puppy swipes. Support them with a couple of Dragoons or Vanguard...uhhhh *touches his Wankel*

[MoGuy]

Dragoons. Balistraii are ment to shoot vehicles and we have more than enough units to take care of those. 

 

About the Ruststalkers:

 

Personally I haven't played them yet, but from the Data I have gathered, they are amazing at counter-charging. Let them stroll along behind some Vanguard or other unit and when that unit is charged or charges, they will just wreck face!

[SevenPlagues]

Sorry, I don't mean to sell Infiltrators/Ruststalkers short. They are excellent, top-quality melee units. They are just fragile, and so I don't want to rely upon them exclusively. I've had them wiped out by relatively light shooting too many times, and like to have the Dragoons as backup just in case things go awry with those spindly little fellows.