Later Founding Chapters traceable to the Great Crusade/HH

[N1SB]

This is an odd question and I even had trouble phrasing the title, but:

 

Which Second (and later) Founding Chapters could trace their roots back to 30k's Great Crusade and/or Horus Heresy?

 

It's best to illustrate my point with examples and I know of 2 off the top of my head:

 

 

--- Example 1: Autek Mor & the Red Talons ---

 

Autek Mor was a Terran Iron Hands that didn't get along well with his Primarch Ferrus Manus.  It's not surprising that he would later lead a Successor Chapter, breaking away from his former Legion.  The symbol of his clan of outcasts from the Legion would be adopted as their Chapter markings.  The Chapter would be called the Red Talons, presumably after his flagship the Red Talon, which was at Istvaan V.  Immediately after his Primarch's death there, he and his followers were already off seeking vengeance on their own.

 

Thus, here's an example of where the formation of a Successor Chapter was almost anticipated.  In fact, even before the High Lords of Terra ordered it, Autek Mor and the Red Talons had practically organised themselves as such right after Istvaan V.

 

 

--- Example 2: Sigismund & the Black Templars ---

 

This is probably the more well-known example.  Sigismund was a keeper of the Imperial Fists' Temple of Oaths and was also nicknamed "the Black Knight".  He lead by example, thus it's not surprising his Chapter's practices stemmed from him.

 

Here's a case of where a Chapter Founder probably had no wish to succeed from his Legion, but when the orders for the Second Founding came, it's possible to look back and see what lead to the formation of the Black Templars.

 

 

-----

 

 

I'm thinking about these issues as I put the finishing touches on my current 30k Legionnaires project.  Also, in 40k, now we see the return of the 13th Great Company.  As I read more of 30k, I notice even minor events there rippled into 40k in a huge way.

 

I know a lot of this are designers retroactively shaping 30k knowing they need to lead up to 40k, but it's still very interesting to connect those dots.

 

And also thinking about Rainbow Warriors.  I know, they're from the '80s, Greenpeace Ship, probably Rick Priestley just randomly picked a name, but it's too intriguing to imagine maybe they had something to do with something else.

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[Tenebris]

Scythes of the Emperor from the Ultramarine garrison on Sotha. I assume that more info on them could be found in Pharos, there is a beginning of a sorts though in Unremembered Empire. 

[Izzinatah]

One that springs to mind is the Nemesis chapter. There is a common misconception that the Ultramarines 'shy away' from things like Destroyer squads, but the terran-born 22^nd Chapter had large quantities of them.

[Atia]

Crimson Fists, Carcharodons (RG predation fleet), Minotaurs (loyalist IW, I'm looking at you Khyr Vhalen!), Novamarines, Blood Ravens also spring to mind ^.^

 

Also - Skyrars Darkwolves (? spelling?) - traitor Space Wolves who use a lot of old wargear - we also had notes of traitor wolves in Conquest ;)

[Calas Typhon]

Minotaurs (loyalist IW, I'm looking at you Khyr Vhalen!)

Honestly I really can't see this as the real parent Legion, as cool as that would be, especially how Olympia was portrayed.

 

Unless IV Legion have had their geneseed changed so much by the creators if the rumors are true, they do not have the supposed flaws introduced with the Geneseed (Paranoia or perhaps the Discipline which could be applied to it) whereas with the World Eaters, they are more or less exactly the same in nature, such as the increased aggression, pleasure in testing strength against worthy enemies and general nature of not caring about anything or giving respect to anyone save their brothers I would presume. Those points, and the one thing that definitely draws the point out for me: How they hurl themselves at the enemy without heed or cost, show to me how pretty damn similar the Minotaurs are to the Warhounds.

 

I can however see another chapter being born out of Kyr Vahlen, The Silver Skulls. They definitely have room to be Loyalist Iron Warriors, even with that one guy ending up like he did.

[N1SB]

Great stuff, ran out of Likes, will be back for more.

 

I'm going to start reading up on all these leads you shared, thanks a lot!

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Thinking about the Rainbow Warriors, one possible route is that that term was an unofficial cognomen applied to a group of Shattered Legions / Blackshields Legionaries - who were labelled as such due to the fact their warriors bore warplate from a number of different Legions, either being drawn from different Legion forces or having scavenged any available armour.

 

You could even go down the route of vague references in the style of forge world - "The Blackshield faction which became known to Loyalist forces as the 'Arcus Bellatore' in reference to the multitude of iconography and hue displayed upon their warplate..."

[Slips]

Executioners, Iron Snakes, Star Phantoms (Their Chapter Emblem is the old Legion Deathwing Emblem), Raptors, Aurora, Silver Skulls, etc.

 

There are quite a few.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Also - Skyrars Darkwolves (? spelling?) - traitor Space Wolves who use a lot of old wargear - we also had notes of traitor wolves in Conquest

Aside from those 'Traitor Wolves' being an Alpha Legion fiction until proven otherwise . (Seriously, I despise that comment in Conquest, it only feeds my sneaking suspicion that someone in FW has it out for the Wolves). I find it highly implausible that Skyrar's are 30k era traitors. They are not stated to use a lot of old wargear. They're only said to possess 'a number of heavy tanks, which they field together as an armoured spearhead known as the Company of Steel'. Which most likely means Predators and Land Raiders. The only specific old vehicle they operate is a single Fellblade, and that's a pretty shaky foundation to base a 'they're Traitor 30k Wolves' claim on. Far more likely (assuing of course they are Traitor Wolves) is that they turned traitor after the Heresy, as it is known that this has happened before (see the decrip[tion of the 13th stone form several verisons of the SW codex).

[Atia]

 

Minotaurs (loyalist IW, I'm looking at you Khyr Vhalen!)

Honestly I really can't see this as the real parent Legion, as cool as that would be, especially how Olympia was portrayed.

 

Unless IV Legion have had their geneseed changed so much by the creators if the rumors are true, they do not have the supposed flaws introduced with the Geneseed (Paranoia or perhaps the Discipline which could be applied to it) whereas with the World Eaters, they are more or less exactly the same in nature, such as the increased aggression, pleasure in testing strength against worthy enemies and general nature of not caring about anything or giving respect to anyone save their brothers I would presume. Those points, and the one thing that definitely draws the point out for me: How they hurl themselves at the enemy without heed or cost, show to me how pretty damn similar the Minotaurs are to the Warhounds.

 

I can however see another chapter being born out of Kyr Vahlen, The Silver Skulls. They definitely have room to be Loyalist Iron Warriors, even with that one guy ending up like he did.

 

read the describtion of pre-Perturabo Iron Warriors - it fits pretty much with the 40k Minotaurs imho. Also their iconography is pretty similiar ^.^

[Skalpynock]

 

 

Minotaurs (loyalist IW, I'm looking at you Khyr Vhalen!)

Honestly I really can't see this as the real parent Legion, as cool as that would be, especially how Olympia was portrayed.

 

Unless IV Legion have had their geneseed changed so much by the creators if the rumors are true, they do not have the supposed flaws introduced with the Geneseed (Paranoia or perhaps the Discipline which could be applied to it) whereas with the World Eaters, they are more or less exactly the same in nature, such as the increased aggression, pleasure in testing strength against worthy enemies and general nature of not caring about anything or giving respect to anyone save their brothers I would presume. Those points, and the one thing that definitely draws the point out for me: How they hurl themselves at the enemy without heed or cost, show to me how pretty damn similar the Minotaurs are to the Warhounds.

 

I can however see another chapter being born out of Kyr Vahlen, The Silver Skulls. They definitely have room to be Loyalist Iron Warriors, even with that one guy ending up like he did.

 

read the describtion of pre-Perturabo Iron Warriors - it fits pretty much with the 40k Minotaurs imho. Also their iconography is pretty similiar ^.^

 

"Winged Bolt", if anything, are more idiosyncratic of the Marines Malevolent.

[Calas Typhon]

 

"Winged Bolt", if anything, are more idiosyncratic of the Marines Malevolent.

 

I completely forgot about the based Marines Malevolent! They are pretty spot on similar to the IVth I would say.

[Slips]

That would explain my innate hatred for the Marines Malevolent (who seriously names themselves Malevolent but say they're defenders of humanity?) before reading up on them and learning that my hatred was justified :P

 

If they're not from IVth Legion Strain...

 

Red Scorpions also make a good case from being of Traitor Legion Lineage.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Also - Skyrars Darkwolves (? spelling?) - traitor Space Wolves who use a lot of old wargear - we also had notes of traitor wolves in Conquest

Aside from those 'Traitor Wolves' being an Alpha Legion fiction until proven otherwise . (Seriously, I despise that comment in Conquest, it only feeds my sneaking suspicion that someone in FW has it out for the Wolves). I find it highly implausible that Skyrar's are 30k era traitors. They are not stated to use a lot of old wargear. They're only said to possess 'a number of heavy tanks, which they field together as an armoured spearhead known as the Company of Steel'. Which most likely means Predators and Land Raiders. The only specific old vehicle they operate is a single Fellblade, and that's a pretty shaky foundation to base a 'they're Traitor 30k Wolves' claim on. Far more likely (assuing of course they are Traitor Wolves) is that they turned traitor after the Heresy, as it is known that this has happened before (see the decrip[tion of the 13th stone form several verisons of the SW codex).

What's wrong with having Traitor Wolves in 30k? All Legions had both Loyalist and Traitor (as well as unaligned) elements, why would the Wolves be any different?

One thing I find interesting with reference to Retribution is that it mentions that a number of Blackshield formations had to choose a side after the Heresy, so there might be potential for a number of these to have been reformed into new Chapters.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Also - Skyrars Darkwolves (? spelling?) - traitor Space Wolves who use a lot of old wargear - we also had notes of traitor wolves in Conquest

Aside from those 'Traitor Wolves' being an Alpha Legion fiction until proven otherwise . (Seriously, I despise that comment in Conquest, it only feeds my sneaking suspicion that someone in FW has it out for the Wolves). I find it highly implausible that Skyrar's are 30k era traitors. They are not stated to use a lot of old wargear. They're only said to possess 'a number of heavy tanks, which they field together as an armoured spearhead known as the Company of Steel'. Which most likely means Predators and Land Raiders. The only specific old vehicle they operate is a single Fellblade, and that's a pretty shaky foundation to base a 'they're Traitor 30k Wolves' claim on. Far more likely (assuing of course they are Traitor Wolves) is that they turned traitor after the Heresy, as it is known that this has happened before (see the decrip[tion of the 13th stone form several verisons of the SW codex).

Being fair, its mostly GW who have it in for the wolves. Have you seen what a pile of crap thenlatest supplement is.

Also, we'll have to disagree on the wolves. It helps make them more interesting and dark. Y'all can keep your he-man vikings incorrutibru nonsense.

One of things that I liked about the Heresy originally was that it no longer protrayed the traitors as the down and outs annoyed at the cool kids giving them homework committing nerdrage, but instead that it almost kind of felt like they were saying 'and the Imperium must fight with all the dregs' almost, having to cobble together mothballed units and persona non grata to stand a chance against Horus who lead the speartip of the best legions.

That has since changed of course, but it was a nice flip in my head, and gave the setting the same epicness of Lord of the Rings, the plucky few (albeit, plucky few billion) standing strong against the innumerable hordes.

[Calas Typhon]

Also, If memory serves, I believe there was a reference to the Black Dragons from a Salamander in one of the Horus Heresy Novels?

That would explain my innate hatred for the Marines Malevolent (who seriously names themselves Malevolent but say they're defenders of humanity?) before reading up on them and learning that my hatred was justified

If they're not from IVth Legion Strain...

Now come on, we can't have every Astartes a defender of humanity and a good guy in 40k, they pile that stuff on the boring Chapters like the Salamanders!

(just a joke before I get nailed to a cross)

But in all seriousness, I really can't see another Legion strain, other than perhaps Iron Hands or Imperial Fists gone wild.

[Galron]

Iron Skulls are most definitely a Iron Warrior chapter, their icon and colors are exactly the same without the hazard stripes. Minotaurs are likely WE.

 

I thought it was clarified that Red Scorps were a later creation of the Inq. for the purpose of having a pure chapter to call on, thus the very close relationship they have.

[Lord Blackwood]

Some folks aren't willing to accept the bad with the good of their legion  and some people find bad where there is good so long as you are willing to have an open and flexible interpretation .

The idea that all legions had traitor elements or even lets call them less than completely loyal elements adds character to the legions and opens up the possibilities for new stories.  Then again I tend to have a positive view on  fluff overall so whatever. 

Also as an aside im one of the few people who like the vast majority of space wolves fluff across both 30 and 40k  including the stuff that just came out. 

[Slips]

However, their Obsession with Genetic Purity has led some to draw Emperors Children Parallels for obvious reasons.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Also - Skyrars Darkwolves (? spelling?) - traitor Space Wolves who use a lot of old wargear - we also had notes of traitor wolves in Conquest

Aside from those 'Traitor Wolves' being an Alpha Legion fiction until proven otherwise . (Seriously, I despise that comment in Conquest, it only feeds my sneaking suspicion that someone in FW has it out for the Wolves). I find it highly implausible that Skyrar's are 30k era traitors. They are not stated to use a lot of old wargear. They're only said to possess 'a number of heavy tanks, which they field together as an armoured spearhead known as the Company of Steel'. Which most likely means Predators and Land Raiders. The only specific old vehicle they operate is a single Fellblade, and that's a pretty shaky foundation to base a 'they're Traitor 30k Wolves' claim on. Far more likely (assuing of course they are Traitor Wolves) is that they turned traitor after the Heresy, as it is known that this has happened before (see the decrip[tion of the 13th stone form several verisons of the SW codex).

What's wrong with having Traitor Wolves in 30k? All Legions had both Loyalist and Traitor (as well as unaligned) elements, why would the Wolves be any different?

One thing I find interesting with reference to Retribution is that it mentions that a number of Blackshield formations had to choose a side after the Heresy, so there might be potential for a number of these to have been reformed into new Chapters.

Because, for better or worse, 30k hasn't been particular good for the Wolves. There was the whole hatedom-spawning 'Executioners' thing, combined with the severing of previous ties of friendship with other Legions (like the Scars). The Wolves were left isolated and essentially friendless (I believe this is confirmed in Wolf King). What did they get in return? Loyalty was made their shtick. This is the Legion that could be relied on 100% to follow any order, attack any target (even fellow Astartes) and do whatever it takes to prevail. Then even that gets undermined and they supposedly have entire Great Companies siding with the Warmaster? That leaves the Wolves nothing, just the bunch of braggarts and fools the haters brand them.

Perhaps I should've been clearer, I despise the entire 'all Legions had Loyalists and Traitors' thing (also, until I see cannon Heresy-era loyalist Word Bearers, that assertion is false).

Specifically, it's the Traitors form loyal Legions that bother me. The ultimate reason for treachery was always given as the Primarch's commanding greater loyalty over their men than the Emperor. So Horus falls, turns his circle of brothers, whose Legions then follow them into damnation. But the loyalists? Loyalty to Primarch or Emperor, both put them on the Imperial side, and I find it spurious that a substantial body of Legionaries from a loyalist Legion fell more strongly under a Traitor Primarch's personality cult than their own gene-father's.

There are 3 exceptions to this, DAs, IHs and WSs. The DAs, well there's the whole Luther and Fallen thing, that's self evident. The White Scars had their Heresy era fluff specifically construct the circumstance where a quantity of the Legion felt closer ties to the XVI than the V (note this is the opposite of what was done for the Wolves). The Iron Hands one ties into thier beliefs about strength. Ferrus cultivated a cult of 'rule through strength' amongst his Legion. I can see some IHs concluding post Istvaan that Ferrus had failed by his own standards, so logically they should serve he who had proven himself mightier than the Gorgon, Horus Lupercal.

But for SWs, IFs, BAs? I just don't see it.

[Spinsanity]

Even though not overtly stated, in Deliverance Lost they do mention that the Istvaan survivors started bearing a grey skull badge, which has me thinking of the Revilers (plus the name would definitely fit).

[Lord Blackwood]

Because, for better or worse, 30k hasn't been particular good for the Wolves. There was the whole hatedom-spawning 'Executioners' thing, combined with the severing of previous ties of friendship with other Legions (like the Scars). The Wolves were left isolated and essentially friendless (I believe this is confirmed in Wolf King). What did they get in return? Loyalty was made their shtick. This is the Legion that could be relied on 100% to follow any order, attack any target (even fellow Astartes) and do whatever it takes to prevail. Then even that gets undermined and they supposedly have entire Great Companies siding with the Warmaster? That leaves the Wolves nothing, just the bunch of braggarts and fools the haters brand them.

 

 

Perhaps I should've been clearer, I despise the entire 'all Legions had Loyalists and Traitors' thing (also, until I see cannon Heresy-era loyalist Word Bearers, that assertion is false).

 

Specifically, it's the Traitors form loyal Legions that bother me. The ultimate reason for treachery was always given as the Primarch's commanding greater loyalty over their men than the Emperor. So Horus falls, turns his circle of brothers, whose Legions then follow them into damnation. But the loyalists? Loyalty to Primarch or Emperor, both put them on the Imperial side, and I find it spurious that a substantial body of Legionaries from a loyalist Legion fell more strongly under a Traitor Primarch's personality cult than their own gene-father's.

 

There are 3 exceptions to this, DAs, IHs and WSs. The DAs, well there's the whole Luther and Fallen thing, that's self evident. The White Scars had their Heresy era fluff specifically construct the circumstance where a quantity of the Legion felt closer ties to the XVI than the V (note this is the opposite of what was done for the Wolves). The Iron Hands one ties into thier beliefs about strength. Ferrus cultivated a cult of 'rule through strength' amongst his Legion. I can see some IHs concluding post Istvaan that Ferrus had failed by his own standards, so logically they should serve he who had proven himself mightier than the Gorgon, Horus Lupercal.

 

But for SWs, IFs, BAs? I just don't see it.

 

 

The ultimate reason for treachery was always given as the Primarch's commanding greater loyalty over their men than the Emperor. So Horus falls, turns his circle of brothers, whose Legions then follow them into damnation.

Was it really tho ? think about the Night lords they sorta were pretty far gone before they actually turned given how ruined their recruitment world was.

 

Also if you look at the Iron Warriors guys like Dantioch and Kyr Valen didint follow their primarchs.

 

 

until I see cannon Heresy-era loyalist Word Bearers, that assertion is false

You  should read the purge 

 

I find it spurious that a substantial body of Legionaries from a loyalist Legion fell more strongly under a Traitor Primarch's personality cult than their own gene-father's.

Your definition of traitor seems to be very narrow it seems from the shattered legion stuff that traitor could straight up mean just breaking away and doing your own thing

 

. Then even that gets undermined and they supposedly have entire Great Companies siding with the Warmaster?

Well after wolf king its a little more open to reality  when i mean you even set the stage for it when you  mention it in the earlier portion of your post  

[jeremy1391]

Also - Skyrars Darkwolves (? spelling?) - traitor Space Wolves who use a lot of old wargear - we also had notes of traitor wolves in Conquest

Aside from those 'Traitor Wolves' being an Alpha Legion fiction until proven otherwise . (Seriously, I despise that comment in Conquest, it only feeds my sneaking suspicion that someone in FW has it out for the Wolves). I find it highly implausible that Skyrar's are 30k era traitors. They are not stated to use a lot of old wargear. They're only said to possess 'a number of heavy tanks, which they field together as an armoured spearhead known as the Company of Steel'. Which most likely means Predators and Land Raiders. The only specific old vehicle they operate is a single Fellblade, and that's a pretty shaky foundation to base a 'they're Traitor 30k Wolves' claim on. Far more likely (assuing of course they are Traitor Wolves) is that they turned traitor after the Heresy, as it is known that this has happened before (see the decrip[tion of the 13th stone form several verisons of the SW codex).

What's wrong with having Traitor Wolves in 30k? All Legions had both Loyalist and Traitor (as well as unaligned) elements, why would the Wolves be any different?

One thing I find interesting with reference to Retribution is that it mentions that a number of Blackshield formations had to choose a side after the Heresy, so there might be potential for a number of these to have been reformed into new Chapters.

Because, for better or worse, 30k hasn't been particular good for the Wolves. There was the whole hatedom-spawning 'Executioners' thing, combined with the severing of previous ties of friendship with other Legions (like the Scars). The Wolves were left isolated and essentially friendless (I believe this is confirmed in Wolf King). What did they get in return? Loyalty was made their shtick. This is the Legion that could be relied on 100% to follow any order, attack any target (even fellow Astartes) and do whatever it takes to prevail. Then even that gets undermined and they supposedly have entire Great Companies siding with the Warmaster? That leaves the Wolves nothing, just the bunch of braggarts and fools the haters brand them.

Perhaps I should've been clearer, I despise the entire 'all Legions had Loyalists and Traitors' thing (also, until I see cannon Heresy-era loyalist Word Bearers, that assertion is false).

Specifically, it's the Traitors form loyal Legions that bother me. The ultimate reason for treachery was always given as the Primarch's commanding greater loyalty over their men than the Emperor. So Horus falls, turns his circle of brothers, whose Legions then follow them into damnation. But the loyalists? Loyalty to Primarch or Emperor, both put them on the Imperial side, and I find it spurious that a substantial body of Legionaries from a loyalist Legion fell more strongly under a Traitor Primarch's personality cult than their own gene-father's.

There are 3 exceptions to this, DAs, IHs and WSs. The DAs, well there's the whole Luther and Fallen thing, that's self evident. The White Scars had their Heresy era fluff specifically construct the circumstance where a quantity of the Legion felt closer ties to the XVI than the V (note this is the opposite of what was done for the Wolves). The Iron Hands one ties into thier beliefs about strength. Ferrus cultivated a cult of 'rule through strength' amongst his Legion. I can see some IHs concluding post Istvaan that Ferrus had failed by his own standards, so logically they should serve he who had proven himself mightier than the Gorgon, Horus Lupercal.

But for SWs, IFs, BAs? I just don't see it.

I can see certain members of each legion from the early days before being reunited with their primarch could harbor a lot of respect and hero worship towards Horus, iirc the fists and Raven guard worked in conjunction a lot with the Luna Wolves pre primarch.... Who's to say a lot of the legions didn't do the same?

We don't really know how long Horus was the only primarch... And many of the old vets could identify with Horus and his fighting style and leadership style than that of their Primarch.

[Kol Saresk]

Even though not overtly stated, in Deliverance Lost they do mention that the Istvaan survivors started bearing a grey skull badge, which has me thinking of the Revilers (plus the name would definitely fit).

Not to mention their general attitude of being highly aggressive to Traitor Marines, especially those wearing the colors of the AL, IW, NL, and WB.

 

And the Executioners hate was more of fanbase vs fanbase thing. Some of the Space Wolves fans wanted to make it more than it was and as a result, some of the overall fanbase felt the need to take them to task. While neither side was right, the hate only existed because of that stupid "My Primarch can beat your Primarch" mentality that never seems to go away.

[Spinsanity]

Because, for better or worse, 30k hasn't been particular good for the Wolves. There was the whole hatedom-spawning 'Executioners' thing, combined with the severing of previous ties of friendship with other Legions (like the Scars). The Wolves were left isolated and essentially friendless (I believe this is confirmed in Wolf King). What did they get in return? Loyalty was made their shtick. This is the Legion that could be relied on 100% to follow any order, attack any target (even fellow Astartes) and do whatever it takes to prevail. Then even that gets undermined and they supposedly have entire Great Companies siding with the Warmaster? That leaves the Wolves nothing, just the bunch of braggarts and fools the haters brand them.

I'd rather imagine that Russ took it upon himself to be the axeman, rather than being assigned the role. Although I understand I haven't read everything there is about the 30k wolves, which might invalidate this theory, I still think that some of what's being said can be assumed to be a result of conjecture and downright misinformation. We know the VI was singled out right off the bat for one reason or another (and we know the Canis Helix can act as a defense against Chaos), so what if the role they'd been assigned was as the safeguard against the warp? Maybe Russ, alone amongst peers, had been given hindsight regarding the warp and its denizens and tasked with monitoring his brothers - which, incidentally, would also explain why the VIth Runepriests insisted the Edict of Nikea didn't apply to them. Plus it's been mentionned in Prospero Burns that the whole 'Savages in space' attitude is a front, it might be another way to keep the task a secret.

 

Sorry for derailing the thread...