Later Founding Chapters traceable to the Great Crusade/HH

[Atia]

 

 

 

Well Narik apparently is a good guy too so he could also potentially be a founder of a chapter like Silver Skulls.

 

Or is that just my headcannon lol?

 

I thought he was an Iron Warrior of Perturabo's stock through and through (if you mean Narik Dreygur)

 

It is most likely Chaplain Zhnev or Zygmunt Tarrasch who would be the creator of the Silver Skulls, if the founder is already introduced to the Heresy.

 

It would explain the link between Dantioch and the Silver Skulls that was so widely related.

 

 

Dreygur becomes a loyalist later on ^^

 

 

He does? Was more added to his story with the new book?

 

Yep. Hydra Dominatus. VULKAN LIVES!

[Beaky Brigade]

One which may have been overlooked in this thread as far as I can see is the Raptors Chapter, presumably formed from the Raven Guard Raptors company, though all the mutants would have been killed in battle or put down by Corax by then, it might have included some of the 'super marines' who were not tainted.

[Sandlemad]

 

It's worth being open to the idea that some chapters may claim symbolic descent from these founder characters without the founders actually becoming chapter masters after the heresy.

 

Like the 40k chapter the Sons of Orar. From a late founding, they still consider the heresy-era UM captain Orar their spiritual father despite the fact that they were set up long after any heresy veterans had died. Presumably they draw inspiration, guidance or iconography from what is recorded/mythologised of him. Maybe he wrote some commentaries on the codex astartes.

 

The Executioners might be a candidate for this kind of situation. They have Fafnir Rahn's heraldry and claim him as their founder but they're a 3rd founding chapter, dating to the start of M32. It's not impossible that Rahn was still alive and kicking - this was after the first Black Crusade, when it was considered amazing that old-as-heck Sigismund was somehow still alive - but perhaps the new chapter simply stuck close to the doctrines of the famous long-dead hero Rahn. To be honest the 40k chapter seems to owe more to their homeworld culture than a founder's ideals, even if they have his bloody-mindedness.

 

Atia's caveat on dates definitely applies here, though. IA13 even says that their 3rd founding status is only from the chapter's own records.

Got a source for this? I cannot find a firm date for the 3rd founding, only an unsourced statement on lexicanum. To be honest, since the FW Badab books I'd assumed the 3rd Founding occurred very soon after the 2nd. The 2nd being the simple splitting of the Legions, then the 3rd, still under the supervision of the remaining Primarchs, establishing the model used for later foundings. So Rann, a 'later Captain' of Dorn is chosen to lead one of these new Chapters budding of from the Imperial Fists Chapter. It also explains things like the Feast of Blades, which has 12 participants, but the Fists only produced 2 additional 2nd Founding Chapters. The participants are all 2nd/3rd Founding, all of which had their starts with Legion veterans, hence membership of the club (some Chapters, like the Executioners, choosing to go their own way are forgoing membership of this old boys network).

 

As for the Sons of Orar? They're 'unknown' founding, so we have no clue when they were founded. To me the most likely outcome here is that they're one of the 23 Primogenitors alluded to in the Apocrypha of Skaros.

 

 

I was going off of the old IA but valid point, Rahn could well have been the founder. I like how your scenario fits with the Feast of Blades.

For the Sons of Orar I made the (hasty) assumption that a chapter with so little known of their history was a later founding, which is indeed a stretch considering the history of the Executioners themselves is hazy.

 

@Atia: So what happened to poor Dreygur in Retribution to make him change sides? Did Skorr stab him in the back?

[Skalpynock]

@Atia: So what happened to poor Dreygur in Retribution to make him change sides? Did Skorr stab him in the back?

 

Shoot in the face, actually.

 

[depthcharge12]

Still crossed fingers for Astral Claws to be Dark Angel genestock ;)

[Slips]

Still crossed fingers for Astral Claws to be Dark Angel genestock

That would explain the legion building and Traitorous Tendency then...

I'm sorry dude, you're making this too easy! :p

I'm interested to see what FW's route with the BA and Lamenters will be with their Full Book Release since their current 2nd RoW is Essentially "Play as Lamenters, in 30k!"

[depthcharge12]

Still crossed fingers for Astral Claws to be Dark Angel genestock

That would explain the legion building and Traitorous Tendency then...

I'm sorry dude, you're making this too easy! :p

I'm interested to see what FW's route with the BA and Lamenters will be with their Full Book Release since their current 2nd RoW is Essentially "Play as Lamenters, in 30k!"

Pfft traitors? More like independents is what it's like.

ROFLstomp'd the NLs and DG and then the Astral claws kicked off against everyone for shiggles :P

Imperium? What Imperium?

[Kol Saresk]

Still crossed fingers for Astral Claws to be Dark Angel genestock

That would explain the legion building and Traitorous Tendency then...

I'm sorry dude, you're making this too easy! :p

I'm interested to see what FW's route with the BA and Lamenters will be with their Full Book Release since their current 2nd RoW is Essentially "Play as Lamenters, in 30k!"

Pfft traitors? More like independents is what it's like.

ROFLstomp'd the NLs and DG and then the Astral claws kicked off against everyone for shiggles :P

Imperium? What Imperium?

Sounds like a Traitor to me. :D

[helterskelter]

I have headcanon that celebrants are of EC geneseed. Come on that perfectly blended paint scheme? ;) :p

[Tenebris]

First thing first, the frater thinking that every loyalist legion is above betrayal of their cause or who considers his or her favorite legion untouchable by the seed of corruption is deluded, simple as that. In the current BL books we have traitor White Scars killing loyalist Emperor's Children, we have traitor Raven Guard opening fire on their loyal brothers and we have loyalist Iron Warriors, loyalist Night Lords and so on. Someone said that the Space Wolves are immaculate, well I think them wrong. 

 

Now lets move onto some items which are cardinal to this discussion. 

 

1. Garrisons. 

 

Every legion did maintain a number of garrisons on conquered or recalcitrant worlds as well as on worlds which harbored either some facility important to the Imperium or important to the legions. These garrisons range from a few dozen warriors up to a few thousand and it pays to remember them. These garrisons were mostly isolated during the Horus Heresy, part due to the Ruinstorm part due to orders or conflicted loyalties. Barabas Antioch is one commander who used the might of his garrison to counter the tratiors, we also know of proud Imperial Fists fighting to defend a fortress from the Iron Warriors. We also have lore on a strong Emperor's Children garrison numbering a thousand or so astartes which was the first target of the returned Corax and his avenging sons. 

 

These garrisons are important for we do not speak of a simple presidium but of a whole world enthralled to a legion. These legion commanders did not took long to realize that they were alone in an uncaring galaxy and many of them, I suspect many of the loyalist too, did use the wealth and the might of their garrisons to become lords and princes of many petty empires. I think that this is part reason why the Scouring was so a vicious thing. 

 

I assume that many of this lone garrisons were the bedrock for the future successor chapters and I think that among legions of hundreds of thousands many of these commanders played their game and only their game. When a galaxy is divided between friend or foe I guess in the uncertainty of it all many simply sat down and waited till the storm passed and more clear guidelines or news were offered. 

 

2. 30k astartes are not 40k astartes. 

 

The 40k incarnation of the loyalist astartes are atavistic hate driven warrior monks. Their whole universe resolves around the hate they pour into the foes of mankind, the orthodoxy of their chapter cult and the very few individual options they have in an otherwise highly structured and dogmatic warrior order. This means that their conditioning makes them less the individuals and more the desired uncaring weapons for the Imperium. AD-B's Chosen of Chaos is quite wordy in this aspect. 

 

The 30k astartes are a whole different breed. Their conditioning was more mechanical, more pragmatic and more oriented to create soldiers, masses of superhuman soldiers. Along with that they were actually allowed to explore the important facets of human culture like philosophy, arts, crafts. The space marines of the legions lived in a more lenient era where the individuality of the warrior marked them and in certain legions this presented the ground basis for their promotions, honorifics, idiosyncrasies of their companies and so on. In short there was much more stock put on individuality, on the personal charisma and on the particularities of these warriors than in the cloistered orders of the 40k Space Marine chapters. There was ample room to grow as an individual and this was also part reason for the many hideous practices enforced by many of such warriors. 

 

This individuality is one of the core reasons why many broke with their legions, why many rebelled against their fathers, why many simply decided to go their own way and all be damned. This individuality is a strong argument for the existence of Blackshields and other unaligned orders. These marines, their commanders mostly, were not the atavistic warrior monks of the 40k, they were true and fearsome warlords, commanding whole fleets, whole companies of warriors and commanding the allegiance of worlds, Rogue Traders, Navigators and other orders in the Imperium. This power allowed many of these warriors to exist beyond and above the legion as individual aspects of it who could or could not maintain contact with the legion for dozens of years or even more. 

 

With this argument who is foolish enough to say that a Space Wolf warlord would not see the merit in siding with the Warmaster and simply pledging his armies to Horus. Who is able to say that an Ultramarine captain would not betray his legion or an Emperor's Children Lord race his way to Terra in the defense of his beloved Emperor. No one can say that for the Horus Heresy was an era of uncertainty and chaos in a very literal way. It was a free for all. 

 

I would add more but this post is already a wall of text. 

 

In short when you envision the Horus Heresy think of the Balkan War in the early and late nineties. A central power like Yugoslavia broke after the death of its dictator. Many tried to salvage something of it and declared war upon those who sought the opportunity to break with the past regime. Along with that many generals enjoyed nigh a cult of personality among their soldiers and this many partisan parties formed. Some were pro, some were against it, some were simple war profiteers, some were mercenaries. This led into a massive conflict where often the sides were unclear, where neutral parties tried to rein the chaos and other parties saw just opportunity for profit, plunder and political power. Thousands died, thousands of civilians died, a whole region was engulfed in a bitter conflict and its echo still sound nowadays. This is very much the Horus Heresy, not just a war between loyalists or traitors, but also a war where neutral parties try their hand at power, where mercenaries jump from alliance to alliance, where sinister powers play for politic power or economic gains, where everyone is the victim and the one to victimize in turn. There are no clear lines in the Horus Heresy save at the very top echelons and the main battle lines of the legions and even in many cases that too proved to be false. It is a free for all where everyone shoots everyone and where in the end it is better that bad happens to someone else and not you so there was little to none brotherly love among the legions as well as among the many warbands sprung up in the event. 

 

It was this endemic cause of chaos and lack of trust which I believe was the main reason why Guilliman had to break the legions for even among allies they often came to blows. It is an era of uncertainty and I assume that with the advent of the Blackshields were at long last know exactly who were the original members of many successor chapters as well as Chaos warbands. 

[Praetor of Calth]

I've actually had a talk with Alan Bligh about the minotaurs. They aren't made up of one geneseed stock, they're of chimeric geneseed.

 

This was from years back, when FW still had plans to release a series of linked IA books in the Orpheus Sector.

 

He gave me one clue as to who the two progenitors were. Something on the lines of;

 

"One of the two performed the Minotaurs role in the Heresy."

 

Now I've always considered the Minotaurs to be Terra's praetorians, so I think one half is Imperial Fists. I originally had Iron Hands as the other, but I'll admit those pieces of FW art suggest otherwise.

 

So Ironwarrior/Imperial Fist hybrid?

[Kol Saresk]

I've actually had a talk with Alan Bligh about the minotaurs. They're aren't made up of one geneseed stock, they're of chimeric geneseed.

 

This was from years back, when FW still had plans to release a series of linked IA books in the Orpheus Sector.

 

He gave me one clue as to who the two progenitors were. Something on the lines of;

 

"One of the two performed the Minotaurs role in the Heresy."

 

Now I've always considered the Minotaurs to be Terra's praetorians, so I think one half is Imperial Fists. I originally had Iron Hands as the other, but I'll admit those pieces of FW art suggest otherwise.

 

So Ironwarrior/Imperial Fist hybrid?

So an entire Chapter of Honsous? No wonder nobody likes them lol.

[Knight of the Raven]

Just without the temper tantrums.

 

"An Ultramarine gave me a bloody nose! In retaliation, I'm gonna murder all of Ultramar to death until it dies!"

[Kol Saresk]

Just without the temper tantrums.

 

"An Ultramarine gave me a bloody nose! In retaliation, I'm gonna murder all of Ultramar to death until it dies!"

I dunno, aren't they supposed to have wiped out an entire Chapter for basically no reason?

[Knight of the Raven]

That's still different than getting uppity about being bested, though I do admit it's not exactly a better reason. Then again, I'm not sure the Minotaurs have ever been given a bloody nose, so maybe they'd act like Honsou.

 

As long as they don't reach foe yay levels of enemy obsession, they'd still be better than Honsou in my eyes.

 

 

I'm looking at you, Newborn.

 

 

Ah, yes, the topic.

 

We already have quite a few hints, and they're bound to become even more numerous once they start the Great Scouring.

[Tenebris]

I think that by now we can safely assume that many a loyalist successor chapter finds its origins in one of the traitor legions or in one of the many "chimeric" experiments perpetuated by the legions. To begin a chapter little more is needed than compatible and genetically stable specimens and the know-how of an Apothecary. Considering that both were in ample supply by the time of the Horus Heresy and the Scouring as well as the existence of literal "havesting facilities" where astartes were produced en masse, well one such a facility could easily yield the number of marines we ascribe to the Chapter idea and all this was present and working in that era. We must also consider that every legion was recruiting during the Heresy and I suspect the larger warbands of Blackshields did too. 

 

But traitor gene-stock, some would say. I countermand the point with asking if the Imperium, the Imperium post the Heresy, post the interment of the Emperor, post Scouring, really had the means, the will and the right to execute those very warbands deriving from traitor stock, who fought hard, relentlessly and vigorously against the traitors in those days of yore. 

 

I would not dare to say that there are many such successor chapters but I bet that there are surely many more than we suspect to. There is a reason why so many cool chapters have the history of their origins "obfuscated". The Imperium at the end of M31 was a much much more different place and with a different set of ideologies than the Imperium in M41. 

[Calas Typhon]

I've actually had a talk with Alan Bligh about the minotaurs. They aren't made up of one geneseed stock, they're of chimeric geneseed.

 

This was from years back, when FW still had plans to release a series of linked IA books in the Orpheus Sector.

 

He gave me one clue as to who the two progenitors were. Something on the lines of;

 

"One of the two performed the Minotaurs role in the Heresy."

 

Now I've always considered the Minotaurs to be Terra's praetorians, so I think one half is Imperial Fists. I originally had Iron Hands as the other, but I'll admit those pieces of FW art suggest otherwise.

 

So Ironwarrior/Imperial Fist hybrid?

 

"One of the two performed the Minotaurs role in the Heresy"

 

I would counter that instead of Praetorians they would be counted as shock troopers for their nature as a chapter, aggressive frontal massed warfare designed for Astartes vs Astartes combat or other high level situations. Providing this quote is correct, It definitely gives more leeway into what genestock they might come from.

 

Its safe to rule the Blood Angels out in that situation, because unless they have nailed out the flaws in the geneseed, they do not display the Red Thirst (or Black Rage), I would say it is also safe to rule out the Space Wolves, again, providing they have nailed out the flaws of the geneseed. That leaves from what I see one of two Legions, the World Eaters or the Sons of Horus.

 

+ The Sons were an aggressive, frontal Legion used to thrusting a spear into the weakest parts of an enemy force and then punishing the scattered remains in force. This is extremely fitting for the Minotaurs from what I see, especially considering they were "the most aggressive legion"

 

+ The World Eaters and more apt, The Warhounds were the ultimate shock troopers, I have argued this point before above and do not really wish to echo the same things over and over. Basically, they are my strongest contender.

 

We might be given more information later about the Chapter or more subtle hints, I for one hope they do not, as the mystery is one of the best things to discuss. But It is highly likely they are of "Aggressive stock" rather than the more "stoic". I would say that Imperial Fist/Iron Warriors stock, if you go by Games Workshop, gave a heavy amount of intelligence, room to scheme and no loss of paranoia and quite a tolerance for pain, that is taking into account Honsou and Ipos from Siege of Castellax. As cool as a Chapter of half breeds would be, I don't think this is the one.

[Plasmablasts]

How would the immediately post-Heresy Imperium deal with all these groups of Astartes with 'chequered' histories? The main choices are eradication or integration. The Imperium of M41 that we all know and love would tend to eradicate first (and ask questions with maximal discomfort afterwards). However, the shattered Imperium of M31 probably hasn't the resources or the well-earned paranoia of ten millennia to pursue such a policy, while still scouring away the residue of avowed traitors and recalcitrant renegades. I could imagine that rather than actively expunging chapters derived from 'unreliable' sources (traitor legions or ex-Blackshield companies), such formations might find themselves lower on the resupply priority list or preferentially deployed into higher attrition war zones. Also, if the Imperium harboured suspicions about some geneseed being 'tainted', they may supply those chapters with e.g. UM stock instead.

 

However, my 'head canon' is that the origins of many of these chapters would be obscured post-Heresy, allowing them a fresh start. This could indeed have been one of the aims of Guilliman's reforms and an effect of the wider Imperial policy of 'forgetting' the Heresy.

 

(Edited for context and clarity.)

[Jareddm]

I've actually had a talk with Alan Bligh about the minotaurs. They aren't made up of one geneseed stock, they're of chimeric geneseed.

 

This was from years back, when FW still had plans to release a series of linked IA books in the Orpheus Sector.

 

He gave me one clue as to who the two progenitors were. Something on the lines of;

 

"One of the two performed the Minotaurs role in the Heresy."

 

Now I've always considered the Minotaurs to be Terra's praetorians, so I think one half is Imperial Fists. I originally had Iron Hands as the other, but I'll admit those pieces of FW art suggest otherwise.

 

So Ironwarrior/Imperial Fist hybrid?

 

 

 

"One of the two performed the Minotaurs role in the Heresy"

 

I would counter that instead of Praetorians they would be counted as shock troopers for their nature as a chapter, aggressive frontal massed warfare designed for Astartes vs Astartes combat or other high level situations. Providing this quote is correct, It definitely gives more leeway into what genestock they might come from.

 

Its safe to rule the Blood Angels out in that situation, because unless they have nailed out the flaws in the geneseed, they do not display the Red Thirst (or Black Rage), I would say it is also safe to rule out the Space Wolves, again, providing they have nailed out the flaws of the geneseed. That leaves from what I see one of two Legions, the World Eaters or the Sons of Horus.

 

+ The Sons were an aggressive, frontal Legion used to thrusting a spear into the weakest parts of an enemy force and then punishing the scattered remains in force. This is extremely fitting for the Minotaurs from what I see, especially considering they were "the most aggressive legion"

 

+ The World Eaters and more apt, The Warhounds were the ultimate shock troopers, I have argued this point before above and do not really wish to echo the same things over and over. Basically, they are my strongest contender.

 

We might be given more information later about the Chapter or more subtle hints, I for one hope they do not, as the mystery is one of the best things to discuss. But It is highly likely they are of "Aggressive stock" rather than the more "stoic". I would say that Imperial Fist/Iron Warriors stock, if you go by Games Workshop, gave a heavy amount of intelligence, room to scheme and no loss of paranoia and quite a tolerance for pain, that is taking into account Honsou and Ipos from Siege of Castellax. As cool as a Chapter of half breeds would be, I don't think this is the one.

 

And yet when I think of that quote, I think of nothing but their role as anti-astartes enforcers, which immediately rules out any legion other than the Space Wolves.  Now as you say, 'what about the canis helix and the wulfen?'  Well to my mind, a Space Wolf/Iron Warrior hybrid, a geneseed known for its adaptability and low rejection rate, sounds exactly like the sort of thing that's plausible enough to achieve stability.

 

Edit: Given the variety of responses and plausible interpretations regarding the quote, I really have to give some kudos both to Alan Bligh and this community.

[Praetor of Calth]

@ Chtonia- I'm just telling you what I heard from the horses mouth. Alan had loads of ideas for the Minotaurs that were going to hinted at over several IA books to reveal a fuller picture. One of which was their chimeric geneseed.

 

I think Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors makes a lot of sense from a background point of view. The IF geneseed has a few notable flaws that could be solved with the Iron Warriors gendered. Both strands bear similar traits such as resilience to pain or enhancing certain personality traits in the candidate such as stubbornness and paranoia. Both of which are traits we see in the Minotaurs.

 

Couple that with the Minotaurs following orders without question, much like the 30k If do and I think there's enough evidence there to suggest a connection.

4

@Jareddm- I really hope it isn't the space Wolves. IF geneseed being used just fits in so much within the context of the setting. Take a relatively stable geneseed and see if it can be improved upon.

[Calas Typhon]

 

And yet when I think of that quote, I think of nothing but their role as anti-astartes enforcers, which immediately rules out any legion other than the Space Wolves.  Now as you say, 'what about the canis helix and the wulfen?'  Well to my mind, a Space Wolf/Iron Warrior hybrid, a geneseed known for its adaptability and low rejection rate, sounds exactly like the sort of thing that's plausible enough to achieve stability.

 

Edit: Given the variety of responses and plausible interpretations regarding the quote, I really have to give some kudos both to Alan Bligh and this community.

 

 

But it has been argued that The Warhounds could have been the ideal Astartes vs Astartes Legion which did not take place due to the butchers nails a prime example is the Cerberus Insurrection. It could perhaps also explain the rather fast geneseed growth (if that is still a thing). I don't want to drop this thread into the hole of madness, but it is probably fair to point out even if people think its not possible.

 

As for the stability, again, anything can happen, but they don't seem to have any real traits at all of the Space Wolves other than the aggressive nature as far as I can see.

 

 

@ Chtonia- I'm just telling you what I heard from the horses mouth. Alan had loads of ideas for the Minotaurs that were going to hinted at over several IA books to reveal a fuller picture. One of which was their chimeric geneseed.

 

I think Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors makes a lot of sense from a background point of view. The IF geneseed has a few notable flaws that could be solved with the Iron Warriors gendered. Both strands bear similar traits such as resilience to pain or enhancing certain personality traits in the candidate such as stubbornness and paranoia. Both of which are traits we see in the Minotaurs.

 

Couple that with the Minotaurs following orders without question, much like the 30k If do and I think there's enough evidence there to suggest a connection.

 

Again with these Chapters, anything is possible. The thing that I always consider though is, as I have said before, if the original Minotaurs are in fact the same chapter that vanished from the Imperium. If there is clarification on this, then I can see things being a lot clearer for me.

[Jareddm]

 

 

But it has been argued that The Warhounds could have been the ideal Astartes vs Astartes Legion which did not take place due to the butchers nails a prime example is the Cerberus Insurrection. It could perhaps also explain the rather fast geneseed growth (if that is still a thing). I don't want to drop this thread into the hole of madness, but it is probably fair to point out even if people think its not possible.

 

 

As for the stability, again, anything can happen, but they don't seem to have any real traits at all of the Space Wolves other than the aggressive nature as far as I can see.

 

 

@ Chtonia- I'm just telling you what I heard from the horses mouth. Alan had loads of ideas for the Minotaurs that were going to hinted at over several IA books to reveal a fuller picture. One of which was their chimeric geneseed.

 

I think Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors makes a lot of sense from a background point of view. The IF geneseed has a few notable flaws that could be solved with the Iron Warriors gendered. Both strands bear similar traits such as resilience to pain or enhancing certain personality traits in the candidate such as stubbornness and paranoia. Both of which are traits we see in the Minotaurs.

 

Couple that with the Minotaurs following orders without question, much like the 30k If do and I think there's enough evidence there to suggest a connection.

 

Again with these Chapters, anything is possible. The thing that I always consider though is, as I have said before, if the original Minotaurs are in fact the same chapter that vanished from the Imperium. If there is clarification on this, then I can see things being a lot clearer for me.

 

I put forward my quote from Eadwine Brown, who stated the following,

 

"IA10 is very clear about the Cursed Founding berserker Minotaurs not necessarily being the same Chapter that fought in the Badab War.  But of course Imperial records aren't necessarily accurate."

 

That, to me, is enough evidence that the two chapters are not the same. [Personal theory] Now it's certainly possible that Warhound geneseed was the first choice, and was used in the first Minotaur chapter.  But something went wrong and they had to be purged.  So for the second attempt, they started from scratch.  They went with the other anti-astartes geneseed and did what they could offset its negatives by using Iron Warrior geneseed.  Now if you recall from Battle of the Fang, if you can find a way to mitigate the canis helix, you end up with a fairly standard looking marine.  No fangs, no tufts of hair.[/Personal theory]

 

@Jareddm- I really hope it isn't the space Wolves. IF geneseed being used just fits in so much within the context of the setting. Take a relatively stable geneseed and see if it can be improved upon.

That seems exactly the opposite of how I would describe the setting.  Nothing good is almost ever improved upon because to make any meaningful changes could lead to disaster.  The setting is about dredging up the lost and the forbidden and using them to create monsters in service to the state, which is exactly what the Minotaurs are.  Now I would never consider the Minotaurs as praetorians, considering in common 40k context, a praetorian is a bodyguard, which Rogal Dorn filled but the Minotaurs do not at all.  The Minotaurs are never defensive and certainly never protective of something that's someone else's.

[Kol Saresk]

Except there isn't really any anti-Astartes gene-seed out there. Except maybe the War Hounds, and that's if the rumors that Forgeworld explicitly states to be rumors are actually true about them.

 

It's been stated in numerous sources by now that the Space Wolves were not made to be an anti-Astartes, that it was a role they chose to give themselves only after Russ decided it was needed.

 

So while the Space Wolves could still be a donor, I wouldn't expect them to be the one Alan Bligh was referring to.

 

Personally, I think a War Hound/Imperial Fist or War Hound/Iron Warriors is a more likely combination. Reason being is that for a "minor Chapter", they are seen as having a massive fleet. We know the Imperial Fists had a ridiculous number of ships in the GC/Heresy era and as far as I know, not all of the survivors of Phall are accounted for.

 

At the same time, we also know there Iron Warrior expedition fleets that were "forgotten" by Perturabo, just as the numerous garrisons were. This leaves an opening for the ships to have come from Iron Warriors Forgotten Expedition.

 

And the War Hounds seem most apt to describe their berserker attitude. The only other alternatives would be Space Wolves or Blood Angels, but their inherent gene-flaws would have to be corrected. Something which has yet to be achieved as proven by the Wolf Brothers and Lamenters respectively.

[Jareddm]

Except there isn't really any anti-Astartes gene-seed out there. Except maybe the War Hounds, and that's if the rumors that Forgeworld explicitly states to be rumors are actually true about them.

It's been stated in numerous sources by now that the Space Wolves were not made to be an anti-Astartes, that it was a role they chose to give themselves only after Russ decided it was needed.

So while the Space Wolves could still be a donor, I wouldn't expect them to be the one Alan Bligh was referring to.

Except he's talking about the role that the legion fulfilled, not necessarily the one that it was intended for. And as far as the HLoT know, and what would be described in the history books, it's the Space Wolves who would be seen to fulfill that regardless of whether it was bred into them or thrust upon them by Russ. And as I said, the War Hounds would've been the first choice, but clearly that didn't work because the red-yellow Minotaurs aren't around anymore.

Kol Saresk, on 20 Feb 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

Personally, I think a War Hound/Imperial Fist or War Hound/Iron Warriors is a more likely combination. Reason being is that for a "minor Chapter", they are seen as having a massive fleet. We know the Imperial Fists had a ridiculous number of ships in the GC/Heresy era and as far as I know, not all of the survivors of Phall are accounted for.

At the same time, we also know there Iron Warrior expedition fleets that were "forgotten" by Perturabo, just as the numerous garrisons were. This leaves an opening for the ships to have come from Iron Warriors Forgotten Expedition.

And the War Hounds seem most apt to describe their berserker attitude. The only other alternatives would be Space Wolves or Blood Angels, but their inherent gene-flaws would have to be corrected. Something which has yet to be achieved as proven by the Wolf Brothers and Lamenters respectively.

Except none of that is relevent unless you're willing to say that the FW Minotaurs have been around since the Heresy, whereas there's no evidence of them operating before even the 21st founding, and that assumes that the FW and the red-yellow Minotaurs were one and the same. Furthermore, the term berserker is never attributed to the FW Minotaurs and are in fact described as operating as "No less brutal...nevertheless a more considered and controlled manner." As for correcting the gene-flaw of the Wolves, as I mentioned, an attempt was successfully made in Battle of the Fang. The results of that attempt were merely destroyed. What it shows is that such a thing is possible and may be replicable 6,000 years later, if one is willing to break one or two (or ten or twelve) taboos.

[Calas Typhon]

 

Except he's talking about the role that the legion fulfilled, not necessarily the one that it was intended for.  And as far as the HLoT know, and what would be described in the history books, it's the Space Wolves who would be seen to fulfill that regardless of whether it was bred into them or thrust upon them by Russ.  And as I said, the War Hounds would've been the first choice, but clearly that didn't work because the red-yellow Minotaurs aren't around anymore.

 

Its really impossible to tell what the HLoT and Inquisition would know, although Its highly likely they would know a vast amount, more than even the Primarchs if they looked into information Malcador and the Emperor had gathered after the death/ascension. I keep going back to it, but they carry quite an aggressive and stubborn nature, quite obviously the result of their Geneseed Implementation as well as a very fast indoctrination of recruits to the Legion, which only the Warhounds gene had, unless that was taken out. (I can't for the life of me remember where that was quoted)

 

Undoubtedly the yellow and red Minotaurs were Warhounds genestock without a doubt. But these too show a vast amount of Warhound traits if they are not the same chapter.