Kol Saresk Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 The Canis Helix does not act as a defense against Chaos. The Ahriman series disproves that unequivocably with mutated Wolves and possessed Rune Priests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 The Iron Hands one ties into thier beliefs about strength. Ferrus cultivated a cult of 'rule through strength' amongst his Legion. I can see some IHs concluding post Istvaan that Ferrus had failed by his own standards, so logically they should serve he who had proven himself mightier than the Gorgon, Horus Lupercal. I can't see this at all, not with the Legions mentality and pride. The Iron Hands are a legion that if they were to get beat, would fuel the fires and come back reforged to pass that hurdle and beat it back. It was not necessarily a rule of strength on the lowest levels the Gorgon instilled to his Legion, but the rule of strength the Gorgon has over his Legion, such as when he forged the Terran and Medusan systems together. It is one of the reasons why when Ferrus died, there was a void in his place and the Legion was divided, because no one was strong enough to take the place as Legion head. Horus would not fit this at all as I see it, because he has already proved himself to be a rusted cog in the eyes of the Tenth, corrupting the parts closest to him and eventually breaking the machine. In my honest opinion from what we have seen, the only way a Legionary of the Tenth would follow Horus and the Traitors after the death of Ferrus would be indirectly through tech heresy or the Keys of Hel. Thats not to say there would not be factions to turn their back on the Imperium at all in the tenth, or one or two Legionaries who have utmost respect for the Warmaster/turn towards him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Also - Skyrars Darkwolves (? spelling?) - traitor Space Wolves who use a lot of old wargear - we also had notes of traitor wolves in Conquest Aside from those 'Traitor Wolves' being an Alpha Legion fiction until proven otherwise . (Seriously, I despise that comment in Conquest, it only feeds my sneaking suspicion that someone in FW has it out for the Wolves). I find it highly implausible that Skyrar's are 30k era traitors. They are not stated to use a lot of old wargear. They're only said to possess 'a number of heavy tanks, which they field together as an armoured spearhead known as the Company of Steel'. Which most likely means Predators and Land Raiders. The only specific old vehicle they operate is a single Fellblade, and that's a pretty shaky foundation to base a 'they're Traitor 30k Wolves' claim on. Far more likely (assuing of course they are Traitor Wolves) is that they turned traitor after the Heresy, as it is known that this has happened before (see the decrip[tion of the 13th stone form several verisons of the SW codex). What's wrong with having Traitor Wolves in 30k? All Legions had both Loyalist and Traitor (as well as unaligned) elements, why would the Wolves be any different? One thing I find interesting with reference to Retribution is that it mentions that a number of Blackshield formations had to choose a side after the Heresy, so there might be potential for a number of these to have been reformed into new Chapters. Because, for better or worse, 30k hasn't been particular good for the Wolves. There was the whole hatedom-spawning 'Executioners' thing, combined with the severing of previous ties of friendship with other Legions (like the Scars). The Wolves were left isolated and essentially friendless (I believe this is confirmed in Wolf King). What did they get in return? Loyalty was made their shtick. This is the Legion that could be relied on 100% to follow any order, attack any target (even fellow Astartes) and do whatever it takes to prevail. Then even that gets undermined and they supposedly have entire Great Companies siding with the Warmaster? That leaves the Wolves nothing, just the bunch of braggarts and fools the haters brand them. Perhaps I should've been clearer, I despise the entire 'all Legions had Loyalists and Traitors' thing (also, until I see cannon Heresy-era loyalist Word Bearers, that assertion is false). Specifically, it's the Traitors form loyal Legions that bother me. The ultimate reason for treachery was always given as the Primarch's commanding greater loyalty over their men than the Emperor. So Horus falls, turns his circle of brothers, whose Legions then follow them into damnation. But the loyalists? Loyalty to Primarch or Emperor, both put them on the Imperial side, and I find it spurious that a substantial body of Legionaries from a loyalist Legion fell more strongly under a Traitor Primarch's personality cult than their own gene-father's. There are 3 exceptions to this, DAs, IHs and WSs. The DAs, well there's the whole Luther and Fallen thing, that's self evident. The White Scars had their Heresy era fluff specifically construct the circumstance where a quantity of the Legion felt closer ties to the XVI than the V (note this is the opposite of what was done for the Wolves). The Iron Hands one ties into thier beliefs about strength. Ferrus cultivated a cult of 'rule through strength' amongst his Legion. I can see some IHs concluding post Istvaan that Ferrus had failed by his own standards, so logically they should serve he who had proven himself mightier than the Gorgon, Horus Lupercal. But for SWs, IFs, BAs? I just don't see it. Well, I prefer to consider on the Forge World Heresy series as the closest thing we have to 'canon' in 30k - the BL books can provide great insight, but they're a collection of subjective accounts taken from unreliable narrators, often with major information delivered as hearsay from individuals who have their own specific bias. In terms of them being friendless, Betrayal lists the Wolves as being sworn brothers with the Fists, Salamanders and Raven Guard - so hopefully when they get covered in Inferno, there'll be some detail on those relationships. In terms of Traitorous elements from Loyalist Legions, when you consider the diversity within each Legion and the extent of the Great Crusade, it's easy to see how isolated forces could side against the greater part of their Legion. When you've got divisions of Legionaries being deployed with Expeditionary fleets away from the bulk of their Legion for decades at a time, they may well feel greater kinship for the forces they're fighting alongside than for the brothers who they haven't seen for years. Who's to say that the Great Company referenced isn't made up primarily of Terran Legionaries who were fighting the Great Crusade before Russ was even discovered? Why would they owe fealty to this barbarian warlord and his feral-world savages? Horus, the commander who lead them from the last days of Unification seeks to purge the injustices of the Emperor's tyrannic reign, whilst their supposed sire decimates Prospero because Magnus dared to defy a single command from his father? Never say never Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 For the Minotaurs thing: We already had discussions (atleast two or three if i remember it right, probably more) about this topic in the past, and while the original Index Astartes Minotaurs fit very well with the World Eaters, the FW version fits more with Iron Warriors (imo) - but unless FW gives better clues for this (like they did with XIX Legion and Carcharodons) we won't know it for sure. For traitor Wolves: A Jarl that got banned from Russ from some crime, and now comes back and sides with Horus? A terran commander that never liked his Primarch? Everything is possible. (Probably) All Legions had forces on both sides (there is even a grey WB in the BL novels, although i think he still "works" for his Primarch, but never liked Chaos - we also got "the Purge"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 The ultimate reason for treachery was always given as the Primarch's commanding greater loyalty over their men than the Emperor. So Horus falls, turns his circle of brothers, whose Legions then follow them into damnation. Was it really tho ? think about the Night lords they sorta were pretty far gone before they actually turned given how ruined their recruitment world was. Also if you look at the Iron Warriors guys like Dantioch and Kyr Valen didint follow their primarchs. Yes, that used to be the general theme, and still is really. The Night Lords may have been degenerate murderers on the verge of Renegade status, but Curze's word was still law for the vast majority of the Legion. until I see cannon Heresy-era loyalist Word Bearers, that assertion is false You should read the purge You mean the story about a Word Bearer Captain that doesn't like the Chaos thing, but follows Lorgar anyway out of loyalty, sacrifices the last Terran WB in a Chaos ritual and then leads an attack on the Ultramarines? And ends the story embracing the path of damnation, crozius and all? That's not the behaviour of a loyalist. I find it spurious that a substantial body of Legionaries from a loyalist Legion fell more strongly under a Traitor Primarch's personality cult than their own gene-father's. Your definition of traitor seems to be very narrow it seems from the shattered legion stuff that traitor could straight up mean just breaking away and doing your own thing You might say narrow, I'd say specific. Traitors fight for the Eye. Loyalists fight for the Aquila. As for the Shattered Legions, I'm afraid I'm not 100% up to date with their goings on, but the like of Mor, Meduson and the like, they're loyalist. Pretty emphatically. Then even that gets undermined and they supposedly have entire Great Companies siding with the Warmaster? Well after wolf king its a little more open to reality when i mean you even set the stage for it when you mention it in the earlier portion of your post Care to elaborate? As I hope was implied by my "I believe this is confirmed in Wolf King", I haven't read the story, so I only have 2nd hand info to go on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Im gonna make Traitor SW just because. A mutation here, a possessed there. Lovely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 For traitor Wolves: A Jarl that got banned from Russ from some crime, and now comes back and sides with Horus? A terran commander that never liked his Primarch? Everything is possible. Both of these are extremely unlikely, given the current state of knowledge we have about the VI. As there were only 13 Great Companies, all of which are meant to be present for Prospero, one being exiled Terran RG style doesn't really fit. As for Terrans? There were precious few of them left by the Heresy, thanks to Russ being found early and subsequent recruits being drawn specifically from Fenris. Are a handful of Traitors possible? I guess (stuff like Sevatar breaking a RG prisoner that I've seen referenced on here spring to mind), but entire logistical units? Chapter plus in size? Sorry, but I don't like it and find it hard to justify. Also, to repeat, this isn't only about the Space Wolves. I hold similar opinions about most of the loyalists (the exceptions already covered). It was not necessarily a rule of strength on the lowest levels the Gorgon instilled to his Legion, but the rule of strength the Gorgon has over his Legion, such as when he forged the Terran and Medusan systems together. It is one of the reasons why when Ferrus died, there was a void in his place and the Legion was divided, because no one was strong enough to take the place as Legion head. Horus would not fit this at all as I see it, because he has already proved himself to be a rusted cog in the eyes of the Tenth, corrupting the parts closest to him and eventually breaking the machine. In my honest opinion from what we have seen, the only way a Legionary of the Tenth would follow Horus and the Traitors after the death of Ferrus would be indirectly through tech heresy or the Keys of Hel. Thats not to say there would not be factions to turn their back on the Imperium at all in the tenth, or one or two Legionaries who have utmost respect for the Warmaster/turn towards him. Well argued, but I do disagree on the 'Horus wouldn't fill the void' idea. Especially when we consider that a number of the Tenth went completely insane in the aftermath of the Gorgon's death. I can see some of these men concluding that Horus had just demonstrated that he ran a smoother machine than Ferrus, and hence is deserving of allegiance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skalpynock Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 To return on topic, Tempests mentions the following chapters as pre-dating Guilliman's arrival: the Nemesis, Aurorans, and Desert Lions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 You liking it or not has no weight on the matter. Its a possibility. Now with Black Shields even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Why are you antagonizing him? both your posts seem to be along the vein of wanting to kick dirt into someones face its unnecessary.While I honestly think that his line of discussion should be its own topic you can disagree with his views or even offer counter evidence without bein a jerk about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hengist Ironfang Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 BA fifth company becomes the Flesh Tearers, Amit their captain has the nickname Flesh Tearer already which pretty much nails it. I believe the Blood Drinkers are second founding also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 >:-( Stay on Topic Bros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Even so, in this fictious setting it is highly unlikely that any legion had 100% loyalty. On a less jerky manner. His assumption that the Legion in question is the Epitome of loyalty while founding flaws in every other is quite exasperating hence my replies. While I agree the first one was a taunt, the second one was actually quite composed. For example, Abbadon is going to kill Sigismund. Do I like it? No not at all. Does it have any influence on the outcome of this event? None whatsoever. My last words on this matter. My apologies for my rudeness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinsanity Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 So, out of Legions numbering in the tens if not hundred of thousands, people find it unlikely that some marines would not share their genefather's view of things? Seriously, have you ever taken a look at humanity, at how often sons disagree with their father, sometimes purely out of spite? These are NOT the psychoconditioned marines the 40k setting has us familiar with, re-read the stories; they DO have pre-marine life and pre-marine memories, so are even more prone to be distanced from their primarchs. Mutiny, turncoats, surrenders and the likes have always existed, so why would the loyalist Legions be any different? Especially when they see their father kill a brother in apparent cold blood... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Also, just to change things around, we have the Black Legion, Wolves of Horus and the True Sons for the Sons of Horus. I added Black Legion in here due to demise of the Sons and their rebirth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Btw any one knows what happened to those Death Guard that escaped with Garro? I am under the impression that there is a book about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Btw any one knows what happened to those Death Guard that escaped with Garro? I am under the impression that there is a book about it. Yes, There was a new short out called Ghosts speak not, there is a spoiler here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/318518-knights-errant-stories/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob P Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Captain Damocles in No Know Fear has a figure of 8 serpent emblem. The Iron Snakes have a squad Damocles and a snake emblem but not a figure of 8 serpent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionary Pallas Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 The new Black Shields give a lot of room to do one of my favorite ideas, 30k Cursed Founding chapters. The Chymeriae rules state that such things could have been caused by prohibited gene-seed experimentation, even if you don't use the Chymeriae rules, the idea still stands. The Idea: An enterprising Magos decides to do some digging into the Astartes gene-seed, mixing and matching. These expiriments would be discovered millenia later and used to create the Cursed Founding. The Minotaurs are most likely of chimeric gene-seed, or more simply, two or more gene-seed types mixed together. Bam! Minotaurs in 30k. Or perhaps he tries to find cures for gene-seed faults and mutations such as the Blood Angels Red Thirst or other darker flaws. Lamenters. You can probably come up with some more fleshed out plans for the rest of the cursed founding chapters than myself, but you get the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 His assumption that the Legion in question is the Epitome of loyalty while founding flaws in every other is quite exasperating hence my replies. This is also a misrepresentation of my point. I am certainly not trying to paint the Wolves as unique here (or at least, no more unique than any other Legion), nor do I believe I am making an assumption. Every Legion has it's 'hats' and themes. A major element of the 30k Wolves fluff has been playing up their loyalty, even to the detriment of the Legion's functionality (apparently form Wolf King), so I don';t think I'm making an assumption here. I'm also certainly not "founding flaws in every other". Are the Wolves my favourite of the 18? Absolutely. But I have tried to make clear in my posts #20 and #32 that my distaste for the en mass 'Traitor Loyalist' concept extends to the majority of the 9 Loyal Legions, not just the VI (and Cthonia's given me a good counter argument to one of my exceptions). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 And I thought I made it clear to stay on the topic at hand, which does not cover ones own perception of the Space Wolves. Since were talking about 40k chapter origins in the Legions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunar Centurion Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 For the Kyr Vhalen thing, I'd say that his chapter would be Silver Skulls. Some others: -Crimson Fists - Polux -The zeal-men (BT ) - Sigismund -Flesh Tearers - Amit -Grey Knights - The Knights Errant -Space Sharks - Predation Fleet -A few more, but I can't remember right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackoption Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 I echo Kyr Vhalen eventually causing the creation of a loyalist chapter, but his style is closer to that of the Minotaurs than the Silver Skulls. I am in the camp that the Minotaurs are Loyalist Iron Warrior stock (based of comparision of table top rules and lore, though I used to think they were loyalist WE. Other chapters I see. -Red Scorprions: Loyalist EC (penchant for apothcaries, obsessed with purity, pride in their colors, strive to excel in martial matters) -Space Sharks (as stated above, Exiled Terran Raven Guard nomad fleets. Though I am willing to be they spent several centuries as Black Shields before becoming an official chapter) -Nova Marines: obvious -Aurora Chapter (4th Chapter of the War Born were already known as the Aurorans prior to uniting with primarch) -Nemesis (as state above, Ultras with a penchant for the unconventional after service with the VIIIth legion) -Executioners (Founding Chapter Master is mentioned as a captain fighting along side Sigismund, Executioners symbol is used as his company heraldry) - Red Talons: as mention in OP - Death Eagles: (34th millenial of the EC were known as the Death Eagles. They fought as loyalists, though their final status in the heresy was unknown) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Did Dantioch survived Pharos? I actually hoped he would lead, or atleast inspire the Silver Skulls chapter (you know, with his silver skull head and so). Also, I wouldn't be surprised to see more of FW's badab war chapters popping up in the heresy setting (i could imagine a mantis warriors based WS company f.e., or Lamanters?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 The one thing I have to point out with the Minotaurs is that they were founded in the 21st founding which was in M35/36 and so it would be more or less strictly based on the geneseed rather than Loyalist segments forming the Chapter considering the long time gap since the end of the Heresy. I mentioned earlier some of the reasons, but we have to look at what we know about the geneseed when it comes to it from what I see. Don't get me wrong, I could be completely wrong. The Minotaurs way of warfare from what I have gathered was frontal, sharp and bloodthirsty, which, if the aggression and needing to shed blood was within World Eaters geneseed, would cover them completely. I would argue that The Minotaurs are pretty spot on similar to the Warhounds and a perfect mirror.(From what I have read about them anyway) they changed after that whe they reemerged in the M41 This ofc is providing they are the same Minotaurs chapter that went missing, which i personally believe they are. I also mentioned earlier that Kyr Vahlen could be the source of the Silver Skulls, I am not sure what was going through my head at that time, because I am certain that he will die during the Heresy. Who I meant to say was Zygmund Tarrasch the Iron Palatine fellow from The Iron Within. Dantioch is dead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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