Later Founding Chapters traceable to the Great Crusade/HH

[Atia]

 

 

The one thing I have to point out with the Minotaurs is that they were founded in the 21st founding which was in M35/36 and so it would be more or less strictly based on the geneseed rather than Loyalist segments forming the Chapter considering the long time gap since the end of the Heresy.

The Imperium and dates? The Imperium and (correct) records? Huh! I believe it only if i was the one who faked them!

 

Have you read the Minotaurs background fluff from FW? These aren't the berserk-like creatures we have read about back then. Either it's a retcon, or two different chapters, no clue.

 

Yes, the old classic Minotaurs would work as WE, if they are still canon?

 

The new Minotaurs, or the FW variant if we want to call them like that, are 100% based on Iron Warriors (imo). FW likes it to sneak their stuff into the Heresy (Executioner, Carcharodons, ...)^^

 

Edit:

Also - a loyalists group may have stick a few thousand years traped in a warpstorm after all ;)

[blackoption]

Atia: Or spent many centuries as a black shield group.  I can see the "Pale Nomads" having to spend time away from the Imperium after firing on Ultramarine forces.  Or at least, that is what my imagination would like to believe.  Granted, book 6 might give us some more info on the fate of that XIX legion group.

[Calas Typhon]

The one thing I have to point out with the Minotaurs is that they were founded in the 21st founding which was in M35/36 and so it would be more or less strictly based on the geneseed rather than Loyalist segments forming the Chapter considering the long time gap since the end of the Heresy.

The Imperium and dates? The Imperium and (correct) records? Huh! I believe it only if i was the one who faked them!

Have you read the Minotaurs background fluff from FW? These aren't the berserk-like creatures we have read about back then. Either it's a retcon, or two different chapters, no clue.

Yes, the old classic Minotaurs would work as WE, if they are still canon?

The new Minotaurs, or the FW variant if we want to call them like that, are 100% based on Iron Warriors (imo). FW likes it to sneak their stuff into the Heresy (Executioner, Carcharodons, ...)^^

Edit:

Also - a loyalists group may have stick a few thousand years traped in a warpstorm after all

I personally believe that they are the same chapter, only reforged. If I remember correctly, they did still contain the same savagery and brutality when they popped up in the 41st only stricter where it landed and far more disciplined. I have read the newer fluff, and agree that they are similar to the Iron Warriors (and the Iron Hands when it comes to legion combat doctrine)

It comes down to whether they are the same Chapter providing the first was not removed or retconned or destroyed or whatever. In the end it will always be a mystery and as you have pointed out, we might get something in the future hinting at which Legion they might come from, but I really hope they don't.

[Atia]

Atia: Or spent many centuries as a black shield group.  I can see the "Pale Nomads" having to spend time away from the Imperium after firing on Ultramarine forces.  Or at least, that is what my imagination would like to believe.  Granted, book 6 might give us some more info on the fate of that XIX legion group.

Öhm, as I read it there were more than one fleet - mind that I still wait for my own book, but what i got from bunny talks it that the Ashen Claws are just one of these fleets, and they are totally more traitors than loyalists imho (ok, they are really neutral pirats tbh). ALso, they are black, not grey, and have their own colour schemes, not the Carcharodons scheme afaik.

 

What I could see though (and that's how I would do them if I would do a second pre-Corax XIX legion ZM army after some Ashen Claws):

One of the fleets, the one with the Nicor, stays loyal, but still dislikes Corax. They would go out an smash the traitors but still never re-join their Legion and later become the Carcharodons Astra. They would still fight wearing the old pre Corax XIX grey.

[N1SB]

Thinking about the Rainbow Warriors, one possible route is that that term was an unofficial cognomen applied to a group of Shattered Legions / Blackshields Legionaries - who were labelled as such due to the fact their warriors bore warplate from a number of different Legions, either being drawn from different Legion forces or having scavenged any available armour.

 

You could even go down the route of vague references in the style of forge world - "The Blackshield faction which became known to Loyalist forces as the 'Arcus Bellatore' in reference to the multitude of iconography and hue displayed upon their warplate..."

 

I honestly did not expect such an ideal answer.  It even ties in with the timing of the Shattered Legions / Black Shields discussion.  Seriously, the Rainbow Warriors just went from the the most crazy '80s idea to "now it makes perfect sense" territory.  Thanks for this.

 

-----

 

Not to muddle this explanation, but here's my interpretation/head-canon of how this Rainbow Warriors endonym started.

 

It'd be shortly after Istvaan III, after Nathaniel Garro brought word of the great betrayal to Holy Terra.  It'd be easy to condemn the Traitor Legions in their entirety, except Garro himself belonged to one such, and was himself aided by an Emperor's Children to deliver the crucial news.

 

Thus, there'd be a process of identifying whom among the Traitor Legions remained loyal.  It turned out a tell-tale sign was whomever Horus had already sent far, far away.  Still, there'd be a tense exercise, during this time of paranoia, to meet up with these isolated factions.

 

I imagine members of the Loyalist Legions would accompany Malcador's men to interview/interrogate such non-Traitors.  Despite it being a verification of ties, all sides would take an squad of Marine bodyguards, ready for a Mexican stand-off, displaying their strength and livery.

 

It was during such a moment in the wake of the Imperium's greatest tragedy, someone in the Legionnaire's ranks would be either scoffing...or stifling a laugh?

 

With everything a hair-trigger away from a full firefight, another would question, "Does something amuse you, Brother?"

 

"No, I...I remembered a story a primitive told me on a world we brought the Imperial Truth to," the first would begin.  "He thought us all warriors from the heavens..."

 

"...descending upon a rainbow bridge," yet another would finish. "I, too, was part of that campaign, but what of it?"

 

"Look at us, Brother!"

 

At first, there'd be dead silence, until there was a whir of armour servos as a Legionnaire turned to look at his peers.  Then another, and yet another.

 

What they saw were the different colours of their power armour, standing in a rank, forming a circle around this meeting, as if all part of a rainbow.

 

And there would be NO joining of laughter, because grimdark, but underneath their helmets at least some would be secretly smiling at the ridiculousness of the scene, plus the fact that a heathen on a barbaric world saw what "us all warriors from the heavens" lost sight of now.

 

The probe into the true allegiances would go on, but during that time, the story of this exchange would spread among the present Legions, and they would recall they had fought alongside as Brothers before.  More importantly, they realised they would fight alongside as Brothers again.

 

At some later point, a Legionnaire would call out to the one who broke the ice, "Hail, Brother..." but not knowing his name, resorted to, "...Rainbow Warrior!"

 

And when the addressed turned his head...whether to acknowledge or to reject the nickname...everyone then and there knew it was already set.  They wouldn't have foreseen their pyrrhic victory nor that they would be later Foundings, but at that moment, at least they could see they were one entity, but merely bearing different colours.

 

I love the idea, this is great, thanks for this.

[Kol Saresk]

I just always assumed someone in GW's early days went

 

"Hmm Bifröst is the Rainbow Bridge, Norse are Viking Warriors, the Reading Rainbow leads to knowledge, and knowledge is power, so Rainbow Warriors will be super cool space vikings!"

 

"But we already have the Space Wolves..."

 

"Shh! It'll just be our little secret!"

[Sete]

Dont forget them Blood Ravens! ;)

[Sandlemad]

It's worth being open to the idea that some chapters may claim symbolic descent from these founder characters without the founders actually becoming chapter masters after the heresy.

 

Like the 40k chapter the Sons of Orar. From a late founding, they still consider the heresy-era UM captain Orar their spiritual father despite the fact that they were set up long after any heresy veterans had died. Presumably they draw inspiration, guidance or iconography from what is recorded/mythologised of him. Maybe he wrote some commentaries on the codex astartes.

 

The Executioners might be a candidate for this kind of situation. They have Fafnir Rahn's heraldry and claim him as their founder but they're a 3rd founding chapter, dating to the start of M32. It's not impossible that Rahn was still alive and kicking - this was after the first Black Crusade, when it was considered amazing that old-as-heck Sigismund was somehow still alive - but perhaps the new chapter simply stuck close to the doctrines of the famous long-dead hero Rahn. To be honest the 40k chapter seems to owe more to their homeworld culture than a founder's ideals, even if they have his bloody-mindedness.

 

Atia's caveat on dates definitely applies here, though. IA13 even says that their 3rd founding status is only from the chapter's own records.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I'd be interested in as to why 'Iron Warriors' are the Minotaurs influence. Honestly, they ring more as Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, and possibky owe a bit more to Loken abd their style than anything else, as opposed to dig in, win through attrition.

 

I don't think that the Minotaurs know, of course.

[Monstra Sumus]

Marines Malevolent are totally Iron Warriors genestock. There's a reason I was drawn to the IVth Legion after all! 

 

There's a fair few points to back this up too. A vehement dislike of psykers and all things to do with witchery. A casual disregard for human life, what cannot fight doesn't deserve protection. Their inherent mistrust and arrogant superiority complex when encountering both the Salamanders and Black Templars (Istavaan and the Imperial Palace, anyone?). They have a real fetish for massed artillery batteries and think nothing of maintaining their equipment beyond useful levels, after all they see everything in their armoury as tools, not relics. 

 

Everything about them is strikingly similar to the Iron Warriors. If they were anything else it'd be an off shoot strain of either the Imperial Fists or at a stretch the Ultramarines. Imperial Fists because of their stubborn approach to victory at any cost (which is something Perturabo was all about.) and the Ultramarines because, well, let's face it, after the Scouring there must have been a fair few Captains who thought they could do a better job at hunting down Renegades than their gene-father and well, you know what they say about power and corruption. 

 

I like this thread! 

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

I'm intrigued to see how FW pursues the Scouring in relation to the 2nd Founding - I'm of the opinion there were more second founding Chapters than we currently have listed, considering the size of the Legions. However, I'd love to see some Loyalist Legions decimate their numbers due to the ferocity in which they pursue the Traitors into the Eye. I'd absolutely love to see it as a pretty Pyrrhic victory - for example, if the Iron Hands spend the entirety of the Heresy trying to rebuild their numbers, and by the end of the Heresy they actually have numbers in the region of their Pre-Heresy incarnation (not difficult when you consider their post-Isstvan ranks) - but they drive themselves to the verge of extinction purely with the zeal with which they fought the Traitors back.

 

It'll also be interesting to see how the fractures between the Loyalist Legions galvanize the second founding, with the Imperium seeing these disparate, changed forces as increasingly dangerous (especially when you consider the Traitor / Blackshield factions which stemmed from the Loyalist Legions). I'm kinda hoping that with the losses suffered by the Angles, Fists and Scars on Terra will mean that they have to kinda take a back foot in the Scouring, with the Shattered Legions who weren't really major players in the Heresy now having to shoulder the task of driving back the Traitors.

[Atia]

I'd be interested in as to why 'Iron Warriors' are the Minotaurs influence. Honestly, they ring more as Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, and possibky owe a bit more to Loken abd their style than anything else, as opposed to dig in, win through attrition.

I don't think that the Minotaurs know, of course.

The Minotaurs prefer to operate as a whole, or at least in as few divisions of its forces as possible in any given theater of war, concentrating and thereby maximising its destructive power. This strategy has allowed the Chapter to excel at siegecraft and in combat against monstrous opponents, which they can overwhelm by sheer weight of numbers if need be. Unlike most Space Marine Chapters, some of the Minotaurs' key tactics are partly dependent on the use of superior attrition within a confined area of engagement, the Chapter's commanders perhaps less mindful of the fate of their Battle-Brothers than some, so long as victory is achieved. Two significant factors aid the Minotaurs in their chosen pattern of warfare; their excellent supplies of heavy arms and war machinery and a markedly rapid influx of new Neophytes to replace ongoing losses due to attrition. The exact source of their war material has remained unconfirmed, but they have been observed to operate using large and replenishing stockpiles of tanks and heavy armour (primarily Vindicators and Predators as tactical support vehicles). The Minotaurs have also been observed to have widespread access to supplies of the advanced Mark VIII "Errant" Power Armour, and commonly field much of their 1st Company as Terminators in combat. During the Orphean War the Chapter was observed to field no less than ten Contemptor Pattern Dreadnoughts, indicating that the Minotaurs possess an unusual number of this ancient Dreadnought pattern in their armoury.

We also have a highly greecian influence, aswell as their rules are pretty much the same (Minotaurs Chapter tactics and IW Legion rules)

[Calas Typhon]

 

 

The Minotaurs prefer to operate as a whole, or at least in as few divisions of its forces as possible in any given theater of war, concentrating and thereby maximising its destructive power. This strategy has allowed the Chapter to excel at siegecraft and in combat against monstrous opponents, which they can overwhelm by sheer weight of numbers if need be. Unlike most Space Marine Chapters, some of the Minotaurs' key tactics are partly dependent on the use of superior attrition within a confined area of engagement, the Chapter's commanders perhaps less mindful of the fate of their Battle-Brothers than some, so long as victory is achieved. Two significant factors aid the Minotaurs in their chosen pattern of warfare; their excellent supplies of heavy arms and war machinery and a markedly rapid influx of new Neophytes to replace ongoing losses due to attrition. The exact source of their war material has remained unconfirmed, but they have been observed to operate using large and replenishing stockpiles of tanks and heavy armour (primarily Vindicators and Predators as tactical support vehicles). The Minotaurs have also been observed to have widespread access to supplies of the advanced Mark VIII "Errant" Power Armour, and commonly field much of their 1st Company as Terminators in combat. During the Orphean War the Chapter was observed to field no less than ten Contemptor Pattern Dreadnoughts, indicating that the Minotaurs possess an unusual number of this ancient Dreadnought pattern in their armoury.

 

 

You could also apply this to the Iron Hands though as I mentioned above, simply because of the combat doctrine and use of armour, especially on the warfront. Possibly not the organizing as a whole when it comes to the Chapter, but they definitely worked as a whole hammer when it came to Legion deployment during the GC.

 

Don't get me wrong, and I don't mean to disregard all this info because it does help when looking into them, but we have to look at the Geneseed  and how they act on the base level on a Chapter that have unknown lineage. And from what I see, it favours World Eaters over Iron Warrior, even in the new version of a chapter or new chapter entirely.

 

As for the Grecian influence, I would say that it was more down to applying a coolness effect on the Chapter rather than basing it on the Iron Warriors, It relates, but more martial than the Iron Warriors. Gladiators (in the media anyway, more so in real life) had a very greek image within their armour and weaponry especially at the time of Spartacus which is the era the World Eaters were modeled on, mostly because there were so many damn greeks participating. As I mentioned, they are more martial than the Iron Warriors, this, tied in with the outlook of the World Eaters as warriors over soldiers (including the obvious love for Sparta) has me to believe they are more leaning with World Eaters than Iron Warriors, who were to put it blunt, the prime example of a Legion of soldiers.

 

Again, It also, other than the Geneseed, depends on whether they are the same Chapter as the yellow/red berserk chapter that vanished

[Leif Bearclaw]

It's worth being open to the idea that some chapters may claim symbolic descent from these founder characters without the founders actually becoming chapter masters after the heresy.

 

Like the 40k chapter the Sons of Orar. From a late founding, they still consider the heresy-era UM captain Orar their spiritual father despite the fact that they were set up long after any heresy veterans had died. Presumably they draw inspiration, guidance or iconography from what is recorded/mythologised of him. Maybe he wrote some commentaries on the codex astartes.

 

The Executioners might be a candidate for this kind of situation. They have Fafnir Rahn's heraldry and claim him as their founder but they're a 3rd founding chapter, dating to the start of M32. It's not impossible that Rahn was still alive and kicking - this was after the first Black Crusade, when it was considered amazing that old-as-heck Sigismund was somehow still alive - but perhaps the new chapter simply stuck close to the doctrines of the famous long-dead hero Rahn. To be honest the 40k chapter seems to owe more to their homeworld culture than a founder's ideals, even if they have his bloody-mindedness.

 

Atia's caveat on dates definitely applies here, though. IA13 even says that their 3rd founding status is only from the chapter's own records.

Got a source for this? I cannot find a firm date for the 3rd founding, only an unsourced statement on lexicanum. To be honest, since the FW Badab books I'd assumed the 3rd Founding occurred very soon after the 2nd. The 2nd being the simple splitting of the Legions, then the 3rd, still under the supervision of the remaining Primarchs, establishing the model used for later foundings. So Rann, a 'later Captain' of Dorn is chosen to lead one of these new Chapters budding of from the Imperial Fists Chapter. It also explains things like the Feast of Blades, which has 12 participants, but the Fists only produced 2 additional 2nd Founding Chapters. The participants are all 2nd/3rd Founding, all of which had their starts with Legion veterans, hence membership of the club (some Chapters, like the Executioners, choosing to go their own way are forgoing membership of this old boys network).

 

As for the Sons of Orar? They're 'unknown' founding, so we have no clue when they were founded. To me the most likely outcome here is that they're one of the 23 Primogenitors alluded to in the Apocrypha of Skaros.

[Spinsanity]

Got a source for this? I cannot find a firm date for the 3rd founding, only an unsourced statement on lexicanum. To be honest, since the FW Badab books I'd assumed the 3rd Founding occurred very soon after the 2nd. The 2nd being the simple splitting of the Legions, then the 3rd, still under the supervision of the remaining Primarchs, establishing the model used for later foundings. So Rann, a 'later Captain' of Dorn is chosen to lead one of these new Chapters budding of from the Imperial Fists Chapter. It also explains things like the Feast of Blades, which has 12 participants, but the Fists only produced 2 additional 2nd Founding Chapters. The participants are all 2nd/3rd Founding, all of which had their starts with Legion veterans, hence membership of the club (some Chapters, like the Executioners, choosing to go their own way are forgoing membership of this old boys network).

 

As for the Sons of Orar? They're 'unknown' founding, so we have no clue when they were founded. To me the most likely outcome here is that they're one of the 23 Primogenitors alluded to in the Apocrypha of Skaros.

That would be my understanding too; the second and third might even have happened at the exact same time, chapters created through the former being composed of Legion vets, whereas those of the 3rd founding being composed (mostly) of fresh recruits/inductees/etc. In which case the difference between the Crimson Fists and Executioners would simply be the ratio of Terra/Phall survivors vs newly implanted recruits.

 

This could also further explain the discrepancy between the Davos and Skaros Apocryphas...

[Jareddm]

The Beast Arises series seems to imply the opposite. That by 544.M32, there is still no 3rd founding, as the gathered Imperial Fist successors only include 2nd founding chapters.

[blackoption]

If I remember correctly, the 3rd founding was a 1000 years after the 2nd.  I think either Seahawk or CPT Idaho has a post in the UM forum that discusses the 3rd founding.

[Vodunius]

The 3rd Founding has been dated to 001.M32, however that *was* in the *original* Ultramarines Index Astartes article, wherein the *Ultramarines* were stated to be a 3rd Founding Chapter created to replace one of the Treacher Legions that were banished into the Eye of Terror following the First Interlegionary War. 

[Jareddm]

Yeah, I've found the references to that and I give it zero weight. Other references have been vague, indicating "early M32" which could be a good chunk of time.

[Sete]

The Beast Arises series seems to imply the opposite. That by 544.M32, there is still no 3rd founding, as the gathered Imperial Fist successors only include 2nd founding chapters.

Hmm actually you have Crimson fists, Excoriators, Black Templars and Fists Exemplar on the 3rd book.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

The Beast Arises series seems to imply the opposite. That by 544.M32, there is still no 3rd founding, as the gathered Imperial Fist successors only include 2nd founding chapters.

Hmm actually you have Crimson fists, Excoriators, Black Templars and Fists Exemplar on the 3rd book.

Aren't those Second Founding Chapters?

[BrotherGecko]

Well Narik apparently is a good guy too so he could also potentially be a founder of a chapter like Silver Skulls.

 

Or is that just my headcannon lol?

[Calas Typhon]

Well Narik apparently is a good guy too so he could also potentially be a founder of a chapter like Silver Skulls.

 

Or is that just my headcannon lol?

 

I thought he was an Iron Warrior of Perturabo's stock through and through (if you mean Narik Dreygur)

 

It is most likely Chaplain Zhnev or Zygmunt Tarrasch who would be the creator of the Silver Skulls, if the founder is already introduced to the Heresy.

 

It would explain the link between Dantioch and the Silver Skulls that was so widely related.

[Atia]

 

Well Narik apparently is a good guy too so he could also potentially be a founder of a chapter like Silver Skulls.

 

Or is that just my headcannon lol?

 

I thought he was an Iron Warrior of Perturabo's stock through and through (if you mean Narik Dreygur)

 

It is most likely Chaplain Zhnev or Zygmunt Tarrasch who would be the creator of the Silver Skulls, if the founder is already introduced to the Heresy.

 

It would explain the link between Dantioch and the Silver Skulls that was so widely related.

 

 

Dreygur becomes a loyalist later on ^^

[Calas Typhon]

 

 

Well Narik apparently is a good guy too so he could also potentially be a founder of a chapter like Silver Skulls.

 

Or is that just my headcannon lol?

 

I thought he was an Iron Warrior of Perturabo's stock through and through (if you mean Narik Dreygur)

 

It is most likely Chaplain Zhnev or Zygmunt Tarrasch who would be the creator of the Silver Skulls, if the founder is already introduced to the Heresy.

 

It would explain the link between Dantioch and the Silver Skulls that was so widely related.

 

 

Dreygur becomes a loyalist later on ^^

 

 

He does? Was more added to his story with the new book?