What's so special about Abaddon?

[incinerator950]

I couldn't really care.

 

It is good to see mal and Vesper though.

[Dagoth Ur]

There is something that I personally would like to add to malisteen's Explanation (which I find tremendous!): Abaddon unifies because his ambitions apply to his own subjects.

Allow me to explain; Look at Horus and most of the Chaos Lords. What is their Goal? Power. There is not much ambition in that goal, it beholds no idealistic value simply because there is no ideal. Each Astartes in a warband fuels the Lord's personal strive for glory and power, each Son of Horus dies because, to Horus, he is expendable. This hunger for power is of an egoistic nature. In my eyes, there is nothing for such an Astartes to believe in, no goal to reach, just the voracious greed of his master to which he will most likely die.

Now let us take a look at some of ADB's most beloved characters: Talos and Abaddon's newest depiction. They all display tremendous ambition. Talos searches for a purpose in the Long War as he faces a personal crysis. He sees no reason in his life and war. Many Chaos Space Marines, probably, face this Problem sooner or later. What do I fight for? What is my goal? Do I really want to die for some mongrel cowering in his Shell in space? To some extent, even Khayon and Ukris suffer from this. Abaddon realizes that and uses it to his advantage. What I took from Talon of Horus is this "From the Astartes, for the Astartes" attitude of Abaddon.

Think about it, the legions all fought for one goal, the creation of a human empire. The warbands face internal struggle because there is no goal, only the desires of the top-dog. Abaddon certainly wages war for his own personal reasons and gains, but these provide his own forces with things to fight for. Power, wealth, realms. The Warmaster offers all of that to his subjects, he divides his realm, delegates responsibilities and so on and so forth. No wonder, he leads a Legion after all, not just a simple warband. He took on the mantle of his primarch and prevails, indeed, even prospers where Horus has failed. Horus lost himself in his own greed, he forgot that all of his subjects, his brethren foremost, had ideals and desires of their own. Why do you think did the Sons of Horus become the main Prey during the war inside the eye? Abaddon is much more approachable for another Astartes, since he is not as aloof as a primarch is. He shares because he has a higher goal in mind and pursues that; the final death of the filthy carcass-emperor.

He deserves the title of the Warmaster because his goals transcend material nature. He is the Warmaster because (just as malisteen has explained), even the gods barter for his Attention. Mortals try to prove themselves to him because they know that he is willing to provide relics, planets, slaves, ships and everything inbetween in return for good service and loyalty.

[incinerator950]

They follow Abbadon, not his ideals. If GW gets bored, throws the finger at ADB, and offs him for some demon prince, most of the BL would crumble with a vicious power struggle.

 

At the very least I'd like to avoid the EoT campaign results like the last topic where we beat a horse to the point it could come back from the dead to say stop.

[Loesh]

While I actually have come to respect Abaddon more over the years...at the same time, I also think he and the concept of the Black Legion hold Chaos back.

 

Their themes of 'success' and 'the long war' are really themes that are more interesting when applied to other Legions who maintain their original ideals then the Black Legion itself. I view the Chaos Legions kind of like a meal really, the other eight are well prepared courses with a distinct direction and flavor, but often the Black Legion feels like someone took everything out of the fridge and threw it in a bowl, sometimes it comes out okay, more often it comes out tasting like....well I wouldn't feed it to my dog on a good day.

 

In a way i'v started feeding into myself on the subject. At first I only understood Abaddon through memes and didn't like him, I learned more and started to enjoy him, then I got a relatively comprehensive understanding of his role in the setting and wound up disliking him(Or more accurately his impact on the setting.) more then when I started, and the circle of life continues.

 

I loved the Talon of Horus, but...the problem is I realized that I only liked the Talon of Horus and not anything else published on the Black Legion, it's all too oversaturated, too flavorless in the supremely bad way of trying to add so much flavor that you wind up with none. I came to realize it was more for ADBs writing skills then any specific merit with the characters holistically within the setting.

[incinerator950]

I have little to no respect for Abbadon, but then I also don't care for the majority of named characters in this franchise save Khârn, a few sprinkled Lords and Imperial commanders like Gaunt, and pre-retcon Deceiver.

[A D-B]

I loved the Talon of Horus, but...the problem is I realized that I only liked the Talon of Horus and not anything else published on the Black Legion, it's all too oversaturated, too flavorless in the supremely bad way of trying to add so much flavor that you wind up with none. 

 

That's fair, but I think there's more to be said. (And on a personal note, the Black Legion just haven't had the focused development of any other Legion thus far, which is part of why The Talon of Horus was so refreshing for a lot of people. It took a faction everyone thought they knew everything about, and actually said "Look, seriously, we don't know anything about these guys. They've had the least flavour and time devoted to them so far. Give me a chance with these novels, yo."

 

I'd argue that the Black Legion suffers what the Ultramarines suffer from though on the opposite end of the spectrum. Both are seen as boring and generic, and while there's no accounting for tastes (nor should there be) both factions are entirely, entirely unique. All Legions/Chapters are, but that's besides the point. I'll try to stay focused here.

 

The Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marine concept. In that past that's been seen/miscommunicated/presented/whatever as "better" which... isn't really true in so many words. "Better" can mean a lot of things. The Ultramarines are the exemplars of the core Space Marine ideal - at the end of the process. The paragons, if you will. They have many flaws (the Codex Astartes that they adhere vehemently to is a breathtakingly useful text, but it's also incomplete and badly translated in places, and no one even knows the original format it took); and for all their efficiency and successes (which can make them seem sterile) they're far from perfect and have a rich, vibrant Chapter culture to draw from. But, again, we've just seen relatively little of it. The Ancient Greek/Roman warrior-philosopher mindset of the rigorously academy'd children that become Ultramarines, coupled with the awesome notion of the proud and ancient noble families they're drawn from, with all the ups and downs of mortal prestige and governance and-- Look, I could go on. My point is, people think they're generic, but that's like saying the Spartan/Macedonian hoplite or Roman Legionnaire was a generic figure, from a generic culture. Success doesn't have to imply shallowness or a lack of interesting context - if it did, no one would care about the Ancient Greek and Roman armies, when they're really among the most fascinating and beloved military factions in history. At least in terms of how they're revered by the Western mind in popular historical fiction and historical texts.

 

But... we've not seen much of that, with the Ultramarines. And it's arguably the most interesting thing about them. I know from experience that when I was asked if I had any ideas for a 1,000-word mega-short story for the BL calendar a few months ago, I did my best to write a 4-page love letter to the Ultramarine's rich culture and the mindset of its individual warriors. I was desperate to show how they were unique through the upbringing they'd had, the way they thought of duty and battle, the rites and rituals they performed before deployment, and so on. 

 

And the Black Legion are the same. They're seen as generic. The "basic Chaos Marine" folks. They're anything but that, though. Whereas the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marine ideal, the Black Legion are basically the opposite. They're not the ideal, or the exemplars. They're not the default. They have their own specific hatreds. Their own attitudes to the past and the future. Their own ambitions. They're drawn from vastly divergent backgrounds and cultures and even time periods, yet they come together the way countless tribes joined Genghis Khan's empire, or the way Alexander the Great had mercenaries and loyal soldiers from Egypt, Afghanistan, Persia (and many other places)... and yet his army was a unified whole. On that note, one of the greatest historical fiction novels I've ever read, The Afghan Campaign, centres around a Macedonian soldier with an Afghani tribeswoman as a new wife, and it's set in the period of Alexander the Great's conquests where all classical trappings of Ancient World phalanx warfare are completely out of the window. But it never, ever stops feeling like it's Alexander the great's army, even when dealing with wildly exotic/foreign regiments and characters.

 

Either way, the Black Legion shouldn't be generic. We shouldn't see Plague Marines in the Black Legion, or Noise Marines, and see them as Death Guard Lite or Thinned Down Emperor's Children. Those are warriors with immortal hatreds who have lived in Hell itself for untold years, fighting impossible wars, and they have ambitions and beliefs of their own as well as what they've drawn from their roots in their own cultures, and what they've now got through allegiance to the Black Legion.

 

Another aspect to the Black Legion that gets poorly represented and misunderstood in the fandom is that much in the way it's seen as a grievous sin to ever be wrong on the internet these days, no one ever admits to being a follower in modern culture. "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" is the famous phrase, and the point of it is that everyone's supposed to say they want to lead. Leading is seen as the best thing you can do, and following implies weakness or indecision. ("Chaos Undecided", f'rex.) That's all plainly nonsense, since following admirable or otherwise strong leaders is something that almost everyone in history has been pleased (or forced...) to do. It's natural. Not everyone runs for president, f'rex. Not everyone gives enough of a damn to run for mayor and try to make their town better (or whatever else). Leaders always exist, and a lot of the time it's natural and beneficial to follow them.

 

But you see it in Chaos Marine culture both centred around Abaddon ("But MY Chaos Marines are too awesome and strong-willed to bend the knee..." as if the Black Legion is weaker for having a leader like Abaddon (again, partly due to how he's presented at times) and in the more general area of derision for "worshipping" (ugh, that completely inappropriate word) the Chaos Gods.

 

The question shouldn't be reduced to a sneer and "They're weak for following Abaddon" or "They're boring and turned their backs on their interesting Legion cultures to become generic". The questions should be things like "Wow, what is it about this warlord that makes them want to follow Abaddon? How does Abaddon treat them? What benefits does this warlord get out if it? What does being in the Black Legion add to their personality, their oaths, their betrayals, their attitudes? What does membership in this new revolution add to their culture? What interesting conflicts are there with it?"

 

But whatever. To focus again, I'd argue that the Black Legion hasn't had much written about it at all yet, rather than having loads and it's all been generic or bad. It's such a huge, sweeping idea, with so much depth and possibility (and on a hobby level, so much that relies on individual hobbyists' choices and imaginations) that there's just not been any real way to present it in decent detail so far. So we've had a few overviews that, in some cases haven't been all that inspiring (depending on the tone of the edition in question).

 

Even The Talon of Horus, for all the (thank you, merciful Jeebus) good feedback it gets, only scratched the very surface. There's so, so much more to come regarding the Legion's culture, rituals, beliefs, and so on. 

[Obscura]

Abaddon has a lot of good bits on him, I've enjoyed using pieces of his armor, weaponry and assorted fiddly bits to fill out my Emperor's Children.

 

Also A D-B said a thing and I like it, I might have to incorporate some of his ideas into my own thread.

[Vesper]

There's so, so much more to come regarding the Legion's culture, rituals, beliefs, and so on.

Indeed. I was hoping the Black Legion supplement would add on those perticular and central subjects, but it remained a barebone and monotonous recollection of some of the Black Legion's deeds and that was it. In the end, The Black Legion can't come soon enough .

[Khornestar]

Perhaps it's old hat to dedicated readers of the novels, but tangential to the Abaddon issue I'm loving the fact that the traitor characters in ToH actually have character, and care about their bonds of brotherhood, and aren't just "raaaaawr chaosssss!" all over the place.

 

Perhaps it's the way I want to read into it, but ADB, I almost feel like you're chastising GW for their 1-dimensional portrayal of CSM when Khayon is telling the inquisitors that they're ignorant in their constant characterization of CSM as raving madmen. But he doesn't blame them too much for their ignorance. What a pal.

 

At any rate, yes, to echo what many others have said, we need more stories like this for the faction.

[Loesh]

 

But whatever. To focus again, I'd argue that the Black Legion hasn't had much written about it at all yet, rather than having loads and it's all been generic or bad. It's such a huge, sweeping idea, with so much depth and possibility (and on a hobby level, so much that relies on individual hobbyists' choices and imaginations) that there's just not been any real way to present it in decent detail so far. So we've had a few overviews that, in some cases haven't been all that inspiring (depending on the tone of the edition in question).

 

Even The Talon of Horus, for all the (thank you, merciful Jeebus) good feedback it gets, only scratched the very surface. There's so, so much more to come regarding the Legion's culture, rituals, beliefs, and so on. 

 

 

And I wouldn't disagree at all with that sentiment, at best what we've seen is a very surface overview of the Legion and characters therein, at the worst it's the Battlefield Gothic 'Abaddon chooses to fire on his own ships if they fail a command roll.'

 

I don't feel like the Black Legion is personally generic, but I don't feel it's..filling...either to use the food analogy again, i'm not sure whatever rituals, customs, that can be produced could really compare to the ones from their original Legions. I'm willing to give it a chance of course, but I think it's just not my cup of tea.

[Sception]

Yeah, there's really a dearth of black legion fluff from their perspective. Usually when they appear it's as adversaries, and GW fiction has a tendency to handle antagonists not super well.

[Loesh]

Yeah, there's really a dearth of black legion fluff from their perspective. Usually when they appear it's as adversaries, and GW fiction has a tendency to handle antagonists not super well.

 

Well really to expand on this, that's just Chaos in general, nevermind the Black Legion.

 

Chaos has a comparatively small number of Novels about them sadly, and it's extremely unlikely we'll ever get the fleshing out Space Marines get. We don't know much about the Black Legion...but we don't know about the Emperors Children, Death Guard, World Eaters, etc I can go on. The difference is with those we have the Horus Heresy books to go off of, but the Black Legion is partially dedicated to abandoning  those old ways because the Sons of Horus are super dead and Horus himself is regarded as a bad joke in the Eye.

 

For this, the Black Legion suffers the most and even if i'm not a fan of their concept I can sympathize with it's impact. It's vague fluff covered with more vague fluff, resulting in a Legion whose principle themes until now is 'We win a lot.' and 'We fight the Long War' which not being concepts exclusive to the Legion has led to their fluff languishing horribly.

[Disciple of Fulgrim]

The main conundrum about Abaddon isn't that he's supposedly a chronic failure - though his 10,000 year master plan to dethrone the Emperor of Mankind has required a certain amount of patience from his fans, as well as quite a bit of creativity from the folks who've tried to chronicle his (seemingly never-ending) crusades.

 

IMO the main problem with Abby has actually been that his character has made no sense (for the most part) throughout his existence in 40K's fluff.  He's alternately been depicted as (just another, albeit bigger) raving, bloodthirsty lunatic, or (more recently) as a clod (the Ezekyle Abaddon portrayed in the earliest HH books) - neither of which comes even close to being the Imperium's supposed Anti-Christ (!) or the kind of guy who can resist all four Chaos gods put together.  Hence the OP's question: "What's so special about  Abaddon?"  It's not just a mystery to him/her, it's also been a mystery to many 40k fans for decades.  (Though the same could be said for the entirety of the Chaos Space Marines - what makes them any scarier than say the Orks or Nids at this point?  But that's another subject.)

 

Or, let me put it this way - this isn't about the Black Legion, it's all about Abby quite personally.  The Abaddon generally touted by GW (and wanted by a lot of CSM supporters) would make Marneus Calgar cr@p in his smurfy-blue underoos on the battlefield - because he's supposed to be the evil twin of the Emperor himself, the Anti-Christ of the whole friggin' 40K universe!  But what do we get (in most of the fiction as well as on the tabletop?) - just another loony chump with lightning claws and a daemon sword.  (Though he does have a pretty sweet top-knot, I'll grant him that.)

 

Talon of Horus has finally started to develop Abaddon as a compelling archvillain and hopefully the rest of the series will continue to show us exactly why Abby (and his Black Legion) are such special evil snowflakes in 40K.  But we'll have to see how this series goes, and whether it resonates throughout 40K's fandom and (more importantly perhaps) within GW itself.

       

[Sception]

 

Yeah, there's really a dearth of black legion fluff from their perspective. Usually when they appear it's as adversaries, and GW fiction has a tendency to handle antagonists not super well.

 

Well really to expand on this, that's just Chaos in general, nevermind the Black Legion.

 

Chaos has a comparatively small number of Novels about them sadly, and it's extremely unlikely we'll ever get the fleshing out Space Marines get. We don't know much about the Black Legion...but we don't know about the Emperors Children, Death Guard, World Eaters, etc I can go on. The difference is with those we have the Horus Heresy books to go off of, but the Black Legion is partially dedicated to abandoning  those old ways because the Sons of Horus are super dead and Horus himself is regarded as a bad joke in the Eye.

 

For this, the Black Legion suffers the most and even if i'm not a fan of their concept I can sympathize with it's impact. It's vague fluff covered with more vague fluff, resulting in a Legion whose principle themes until now is 'We win a lot.' and 'We fight the Long War' which not being concepts exclusive to the Legion has led to their fluff languishing horribly.

 

 

I'd point out Abaddon specifically, because even in novels from Chaos Marine perspectives from better authors, such as ADB's Night Lords trilogy, Abaddon still often ends up looking pretty bad.

[incinerator950]

Yeah, there's really a dearth of black legion fluff from their perspective. Usually when they appear it's as adversaries, and GW fiction has a tendency to handle antagonists not super well.

Most franchises don't.

[Khornestar]

Finished listening to the audiobook last week, and I loved it. The stuff about Abaddon is cool, but really the over all depth of Chaos and related details that were explored in the book were the best parts. I expect forthcoming Black Legion books would do a better job at explaining Abaddon's relationship with the gods beyond some description by Khayon, who explains what happened as opposed to how/why it happened.

[helterskelter]

What's so special you ask? His magical development of charisma when he's left by himself and his WB Bro on the vengeful spirit for many years :p

[Khornestar]

What's so special you ask? His magical development of charisma when he's left by himself and his WB Bro on the vengeful spirit for many years

" , maybe I should have been a little nicer to people. Okay, that's it. I'm making a new resolution to be much more charming. If anyone ever ends up on my ship, I'm gonna be a helluva host. HELLUVA host."

[Kol Saresk]

Ectoplasmic ale. Nuff said.

[Xenith]

What's so special you ask? His magical development of charisma when he's left by himself and his WB Bro on the vengeful spirit for many years

Well, before he was a tool of war, a weapon of constant fighting, and he was exactly what he needed to be. Horus was the leader, Abaddon his right hand.

Suddenly he finds himself without a war, his father dead, he was bound to instrospection. Travelling changes you, teaches you to be more independant, accomdating, and that's just over the span of a human life. Abaddon travelled for millenia, of course he changed.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Talon of Horus has finally started to develop Abaddon as a compelling archvillain and hopefully the rest of the series will continue to show us exactly why Abby (and his Black Legion) are such special evil snowflakes in 40K.  But we'll have to see how this series goes, and whether it resonates throughout 40K's fandom and (more importantly perhaps) within GW itself.

 

Personally Talon of Horus, gave me the feel of Abby been an Anti-Hero, rather then an Arch villain.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

Talon of Horus has finally started to develop Abaddon as a compelling archvillain and hopefully the rest of the series will continue to show us exactly why Abby (and his Black Legion) are such special evil snowflakes in 40K. But we'll have to see how this series goes, and whether it resonates throughout 40K's fandom and (more importantly perhaps) within GW itself.

Personally Talon of Horus, gave me the feel of Abby been an Anti-Hero, rather then an Arch villain.

That's because we haven't seen him start the practice of killing Imperial Astartes and then having their corpses possessed by daemons yet, since the short Champion of Chaos happens after Talon of Horus.

[Vesper]

Abaddon being an archvillain or a hero is a matter of perspective. In the Black Legion series, he'll be a hero, because we'll follow his ideals and his vision, making the possession of a dead chapter master a suitable punishment for those who oppose him.

[Disciple of Fulgrim]

What's so special you ask? His magical development of charisma when he's left by himself and his WB Bro on the vengeful spirit for many years

Previously very true IMO, but the best thing about "Talon" is that it begins to address this concern. As I said in my review: (Warning: Relatively minor spoiler contained in the below extract.)

"2. The Good: What I really liked.

a. Abaddon: As others have remarked on, ToH shows (or more properly, begins to show) why and how Abaddon and company are “the greatest threat” to the Imperium. To me this is plausibly done and tremendously welcome, since (along with the updated/expanded fluff in the Basic Rules and BL supplement) it serves as a great counterpoint to all the “Failbaddon” nonsense that’s been floating around the Internet for years. Is Abaddon in ToH way different from the guy we’ve seen in the Heresy series or the Night Lords trilogy? Sure, but that difference is necessary and interesting, and also justified (to some extent) in ToH by mention of Abaddon’s Dark Pilgrimage. (I was absolutely fascinated by the aptly numbered Chapter XIII, “Ezekyle,” set in Abaddon’s treasure room-cum-laboratory on the Vengeful Spirit. The descriptions and dialogue were all great, but what I enjoyed most was seeing Abaddon portrayed for the first time, not as some kind of raging madman, but as a charismatic and thoughtful leader. That’s why he’s so dangerous to the IoM in my opinion – because he can somehow bring a little order and vision to the forces of Chaos. I really hope we learn more about his pilgrimage through the Eye and how it changed him, perhaps via flashbacks in future installments.)"

Emphasis on the last sentence - I really do hope Abby's Dark Pilgimage is somehow fleshed out in the rest of the series, since I think it could go a long way towards explaining why he's the biggest Archvillain (or Anti-hero if you prefer) in 40K.

[incinerator950]

He's in no way an anti hero. I don't even consider the Black Crusade the biggest threat after the newcron retcon and Nid/Ork stalemate.