What's so special about Abaddon?

[Xenith]

He's in no way an anti hero. I don't even consider the Black Crusade the biggest threat after the newcron retcon and Nid/Ork stalemate.

Then you probably don't understand the gravity of the situation.

[the jeske]

Well necrons can blow up the galaxy at any given moment. Chaos can't. Nids just like necrons are the second faction that has already won  a big war.

[Xenith]

Being blown up or eaten seems minor compared to having your body be taken into slavery by the forces of chaos, then when it expires, having your soul be the eternal plaything of the dark powers.

 

Humanity is going to die, but whether it's with a 'bang', an 'omnomnom', or an eternity of screaming agony seems important.

[Kol Saresk]

Being blown up or eaten seems minor compared to having your body be taken into slavery by the forces of chaos, then when it expires, having your soul be the eternal plaything of the dark powers.

 

Humanity is going to die, but whether it's with a 'bang', an 'omnomnom', or an eternity of screaming agony seems important.

Not to mention that Chaos is a multiversal threat versus the multi-galactic threat of the Tyranids or the one-galaxy threat of the Necrons.

 

"Oh, you blew up the universe? Well whoopideedoodah. Because not only do we have other universes to play with, we can do what we when the WHF universe was blown up and remade into AoS and just turn that brand new universe into our playground.

[the jeske]

"Oh, you blew up the universe? Well whoopideedoodah. Because not only do we have other universes to play with, we can do what we when the WHF universe was blown up and remade into AoS and just turn that brand new universe into our playground.

 

 

If chaos is so universal, then when nids eat their first galaxy[depending on nids fluff anything from 1 to 1+who knows how many], they also eat and beat the local chaos worshipers. Also if necrons win, then there is no feedback to support the chaos gods and [at worse localy] we are the calm warp state, where chaos gods do not exist or[in the best situation] the chaos die from hunger.

[Kol Saresk]

Jeske, look up the Multiverse theory. Chaos gets all of that. The Nids will only ever get one universe and the Crons will only ever get one galaxy.

 

WHF transitioning into AoS showed that Chaos has so much already, and so much more to get, that it doesn't even care about the death of an entire universe. The entirety of all the Nids can ever achieve is nothing to Chaos. And if you think managing to kill an entire galaxy of Chaos worshippers is a big deal, then you haven't paid attention to the billions of followers used as cannon fodder in just about every single battle involving Chaos.

[Thedarkprincesnun]

Also jeske you forget one thing

If abbadon manages to do the whole crimson path thing the hive mind will be doing the running away

[Disciple of Fulgrim]

While threats to the 40K Universe or Multi-verse are interesting topics of discussion, the setting almost exclusively focuses on the Milky Way galaxy, home of the IoM and humanity.  Who are the real threats in the Milky Way?  Well, the latest edition of the rules labels Team Chaos (CSM and Deamons, led by Abby) as "the Greatest Threat."  But does anyone really think that holds any water, given the current state of the rules etc. and the fluff?  Clearly not, especially if someone in this very forum scoffs at the Black Crusade - the Nids and Crons (I have to read up on the latter's latest fluff, but I can generally buy them as contenders)  seem to be the front runners.  Why is this?  Because of GW's lazy non-management (the whole wacky "there is no canon, it's all propaganda" approach) to their IP.  People and organizations focus time and effort on what's important to them - and for GW that obviously doesn't include exactly what's going on at the "Time of Ending."  So even if a guy like AD-B focuses his considerable talents on fleshing out Abby in ToH, it's all going to be like a fart in a tornado if GW as a whole doesn't get their act together.  Good luck with that.     

[Kol Saresk]

People in this forum have been scoffing at the Black Crusades since they couldn't do Word Bearer daemon bombs anymore. Meanwhile, Necron players feel their army isn't up to snuff, and it's the same with the Nids, the Tau and every army. There is always someone who feels like someone else has it better. So if I were to use that say which faction was the bigger threat in the background despite what the background itself says, then nobody wiuld be a threat.

 

But hey, if it's all a hopeless cause, then why is anyone here? Why not go to something that will stand resolute in the sands of time and never change?

[incinerator950]

 

He's in no way an anti hero. I don't even consider the Black Crusade the biggest threat after the newcron retcon and Nid/Ork stalemate.

Then you probably don't understand the gravity of the situation.

I watched the EoT campaign. The gravity isn't lost on me, I just don't consider Marneus Failbaddsue a viable threat with how Chaos is presented. I also don't care how much ABD and BL fanboys fluff his armored peg, he is a overglorified antichrist in a faction that has deteriorated over three editions.

 

Please don't assume I'm not in this, you sound like Rebels fanboys trying to justify the credibility of their kids show.

[Teetengee]

Quit trolling Incinerator. If you have nothing useful to say go away.

IIRC Chaos is the greatest threat to the imperium, not to humanity, they aren't one and the same (no matter how much imperial propaganda claims otherwise.)

[Flint13]

++Alright folks, this has run itself into the ground. Let's move to something more constructive.

[Flint13]

Alright folks, we're back open for business.

 

Keep it fun and constructive.

[Xenith]

So:

 

Q: Who is Abaddon, and why should we be afriad?

 

A: The leader of the armies of Hell, because he wants to tear down everything that you know and kill your God.

 

The Emperor is still alive as the Inquisitors wouldn't unplug him, because of the effects his death would have on the Imperium. If Abaddon actually killed the Emperor and paraded his body around, mounted it on a land raider, the astronomican dies, imperial worlds are shut off from one another, lawlessness ensues as they are no longer governed, and they die a slow tortured death as the Eye expands and encroaches upon their worlds. When consumed, they mutate, and become the prey of daemons.

[Vesper]

Hey there,

I don't think it's a codex power level, it's more of a in-universe scale thing. For the following development, I wont take Talon of Horus into account, I'll adress what it brings to the table later.

We are being told Abaddon and Chaos are the single most dangerous threat to an Imperium crumbling from every side. Yet we don't see it, and it's hard to get the fact believable without showing proof of it, which is what GW has done for as long as 40k exists.

I get that authors write what they want to write and that's fine. What I don't get is why they all seem to want to write about how the Ultramarines are awesome, which kinda makes the setting look ridiculously tiny. But whatever.

Abaddon has done some real business, but there is so precious few about him and the Chaos Space Marines that we simply don't get to know more than a few words here and there, and when we get more it's handled poorly (Pandorax, for example). The most documented action of the Despoiler has been the Gothic War, and when we look at it, it has tremendous potential but is undermined by several irritating facts that tend to diminish its impact. It's yet another Sector-wide threat, which the Imperium seems to be dealing with every two year or so, so it doesn't strike as really threatening at first, but then, you have the super weapons thingy about the Planet Killer along with the Blackstone Fortresses. Abaddon does pretty well at bullying the Sector into submission and getting what he came for while the imperials are hunted down or kept out of the deal by a warpstorm. Then, the battle of Gethsemane, the outnumbered and outgunned imperials beat the Chaos fleet (who must've been led by some random goon who wasn't apparently that good at his job) and the Eldars do their thing, shifting the balance of power while Abaddon isn't even involved in the battle. The Gothic War is cool, but feels tiny and we don't know the Chaos side of the events. It doesn't feel like hundreds of thousand Chaos Marines are involved, that's for sure. But then maybe Abaddon only committed a token force, mostly composed of human pirates or something. But we don't know. Yet.

There was something ADB said about the making of the Black Legion supplement that stuck me. He kept telling them to make it bigger, to scale up the Black Crusades or something, to make it more consistent with the role the Black Legion and Abaddon are supposed to play in the lore. In fact, the Black Legion is one of the least developped faction of 40k, and when it appears, the scale is so messed up most of the time, writers treat them as if they're Chapter sized, the equivalent of the Ultramarines (without the cheese ). And the frustrating thing about the Black Legion and Abaddon is that we know actually next to nothing about them. I think I've read anything about them in the entire lore and the feeling I'm left with is that I know nothing about them safe for a timeline about Black Crusades. Hell, I think I've been more inspired in playing Black Legion by ADB's posts and stuff, before Talon of Horus even hit the shelves.

But that's a something we could extrapolate. The Black Legion is far from being the only casualty here. Take the Night of a Thousand Rebellions, an event that makes a fourth of the Imperium go dark in a single night. All we know about it is contained in four lines. Four. Lines.

I liked Talon of Horus. Not because it's about the Black Legion (it's not even really the case actually), but because it expanded on key themes and events always left out of the window, like the Legion Wars / Slave Wars, the cloning of Horus, the Eye and how it's like to sail, fight and live in it. And it felt refreshing because I had the impression the Galaxy suddently got bigger, in a good way. And I think I've reached a point where I think it's an urgency we depart from Macragge to explore some of the other facets of the lore. Because it desesperatly needs it.

Sorry for the typos and other mistakes.

[incinerator950]

So:

 

Q: Who is Abaddon, and why should we be afriad?

 

A: The leader of the armies of Hell, because he wants to tear down everything that you know and kill your God.

 

The Emperor is still alive as the Inquisitors wouldn't unplug him, because of the effects his death would have on the Imperium. If Abaddon actually killed the Emperor and paraded his body around, mounted it on a land raider, the astronomican dies, imperial worlds are shut off from one another, lawlessness ensues as they are no longer governed, and they die a slow tortured death as the Eye expands and encroaches upon their worlds. When consumed, they mutate, and become the prey of daemons.

The Tyranids or Necrons invading Sol system isn't cause for that level of concern?

 

The chances of Abbadon succeeding are as likely as Squats coming back.

[Tenebris]

I think that plenty of Chaos frater could go for proverbial hours about Abaddon, I know I could, but Vesper has the right of it. There is a great deal about Abaddon and about the Black Legion to speak of but ultimately I think we all are quite contrite since we all know that his master plan would never come to pass due to the limitations of the setting. Bar AD-B I have yet to read a book from another author which questions plenty of things in the setting or deigns to explore the more remote but infinitely more interesting aspects of the lore than the same and usual Ultramarines and their likes.  

 

My personal fear is that Abaddon and the Black Legion would not get their much deserving moment of glory. A strange thing to say especially in the light of the Archaon book for AoS. This aspect puts me in conflict for much was done for the other super-villain but the same could be hardly implemented for Abaddon. Both armies are cardinal to the lore and both masters of Chaos are the ultimate bad guy. We of Chaos would like to see them triumph but whilst AoS presented a chance to Archaon to do just that, sadly the same cannot be said for the 40k setting.

 

Personally Abaddon is a great favorite character of mine. I always liked him to other Chaos characters for he was at the same time sinister yet still so mundane. He is a proper and realized Chaos Lord, he is also a great leader. His achievements are plain and clear to all to see and his prowess as a warrior is unquestionable. Yet in all these things he has little to no superlatives. He does not move planets like Ahriman, nor corrupts entire sectors as Typhus, he is not the graceful duelist like Lucius or the bloody minded warrior like Khârn. But, but, at the same time he is all of them.

 

I agree that a great deal of damage was done by GW for not realizing the potential of this wonderful character. I would love to read of not just the 13th Black Crusade, but of all of them. I am intrigued by the Black Legion series and if the first book is a taste of what is to come I can barely contain my excitement for the next book, and the next, and the next.

 

All in all what is so special about Abaddon?

 

I could go all prosaic about him but I will try to be short. Abaddon is the face of Chaos. Despite many naysayers, to me he has always been the face of Chaos, the TRUE Chaos. It is he who ignited the hatred in the shattered Chaos legions. It is he who relighted the fuse of the Long War time and time again. It is he who has never lost sight of Terra and the carcass of the God-Emperor. It is he who is to every Chaos warrior, supporter and detractor alike, a figure of divinity, purpose and personified martial might as a space marine. It is he who denied himself immortality so that he could kill the Emperor with his own, genhanced, Chaos gifted, but still very much human hands.

 

And there is a very real factor of cool in all this. 

 

And this is what makes Abaddon so dear to me as a character.  

[Carrack]

 

So:

 

Q: Who is Abaddon, and why should we be afriad?

 

A: The leader of the armies of Hell, because he wants to tear down everything that you know and kill your God.

 

The Emperor is still alive as the Inquisitors wouldn't unplug him, because of the effects his death would have on the Imperium. If Abaddon actually killed the Emperor and paraded his body around, mounted it on a land raider, the astronomican dies, imperial worlds are shut off from one another, lawlessness ensues as they are no longer governed, and they die a slow tortured death as the Eye expands and encroaches upon their worlds. When consumed, they mutate, and become the prey of daemons.

The Tyranids or Necrons invading Sol system isn't cause for that level of concern?

 

The chances of Abbadon succeeding are as likely as Squats coming back.

The Imperium doesn't know the extent of the threat posed by the Tyranids and Necrons. They are just another alien menace that they have been able to fight off, or absorb the losses from, so far. They know what they are facing with Abaddon, and they fear him.

[Teetengee]

 

So:

 

Q: Who is Abaddon, and why should we be afriad?

 

A: The leader of the armies of Hell, because he wants to tear down everything that you know and kill your God.

 

The Emperor is still alive as the Inquisitors wouldn't unplug him, because of the effects his death would have on the Imperium. If Abaddon actually killed the Emperor and paraded his body around, mounted it on a land raider, the astronomican dies, imperial worlds are shut off from one another, lawlessness ensues as they are no longer governed, and they die a slow tortured death as the Eye expands and encroaches upon their worlds. When consumed, they mutate, and become the prey of daemons.

The Tyranids or Necrons invading Sol system isn't cause for that level of concern?

 

The chances of Abbadon succeeding are as likely as Squats coming back.

 

I mean, canonically this is false, as 6th ed rulebook and the 3.5 codex both stated categorically that the 13th crusade was the one.

[Kol Saresk]

It also helps that the Tyranids haven't invaded the Sol system, only the Sol Segmentum. And that everytime a tendril becomes a major threat, they're either able to dump onto some Orks who take it to task, or initiate a last stand scenario that cuts the legs out from under it.

 

Meanwhile the Necrons are really only worried about reestablishing their old empire by awakening the tomb worlds. There are no tomb worlds in the Sol System and the only time they ever showed interest was when they went to Mars to awaken the Void Dragon. Which probably no longer even exists as an event due to the actual retcons the Necrons have suffered.

 

Nay, the only threat which actually has invaded the Sol system and according to the background has free run of the galaxy until it loses its motivation and decides to just sit there, is Chaos.

 

There are only three Crusades the Imperium ever actually beat back, and the last one was the 12Th Crusade when they blew up a Blackstone Fortress and caused Abaddon to retreat with the two he had, and then managed to destroy the Planetkiller while someone else was captain of it. Aloss that was replaced by the time the 13th Black Crusade rolled around.

 

The only threat more consistent than Chaos are the Orks. The only difference is that Orks don't live in the Imperial basement; Chaos does.

[Tenebris]

In theory yes. The prophecy speaks of a thirteenth time/knell, the Black Legion supplement writes about the Crimson Path, the escalation in the Cadian sector implies that something major is coming and the 3,5 book is outright states it. 

 

A campaign was fought. Chaos won. GW retconned the whole thing. So we are back at the "conjecture" part. 

 

It is not the question whether the 13th Black Crusade, therefore Abaddon's main triumph, is a thing or not. The question is if it will be allowed to pass. 

 

My take on the thing is that we will sooner see Leman Russ coming from the Eye, the Lion awakening and Guilliman healing in stasis than Abaddon shattering the defenses of Cadia and going through with his plan. 

[Teetengee]

-snip-

My take on the thing is that we will sooner see Leman Russ coming from the Eye, the Lion awakening and Guilliman healing in stasis than Abaddon shattering the defenses of Cadia and going through with his plan. 

I mean, I'm pretty sure the only thematically appropriate result is for all of those things to occur in response to or during Abaddon's smashing of the defenses of cadia.

 

Also @Kol, Mars is a tomb world.

[Tenebris]

Indeed yes. This is why I have a dislike when the many authors use the device of "prophecy" in their books. When done right it is an awesome moment in many a setting but when not given a proper thought it usually backfires and backfires badly. 

 

Currently the hard facts we have are the ones from Talon of Horus and the Black Legion supplement. Due to the result of the world campaign being retconned I doubt that the material from the 3.5 book is to be considered valid (I know frater, heresy). Sincerely the whole thing is a lot messier when you decide to dissect it and search for facts. 

 

Abaddon is like many other main villains a very tricky character to handle. He is a great character and there is ample room to develop him. I am glad that AD-B is tackling this thankless task for it is one of the most dire ones in the setting. I think that everyone of us has ample arguments why Abaddon is special and those same arguments do also have may detractors. Yet my answer to it all is quite simple. 

 

Warmaster

 

A title, a legacy, a burden, a chance, a betrayal, an inheritance, a desire, a threat, a promise, a chance at immortality and divinity. 

 

All this is hidden behind this title and it is quite hard to contemplate the importance it has in the setting. 

[Kol Saresk]

Also @Kol, Mars is a tomb world.

Do you happen to have a quote for that? Because the only information I can find is that Mars is not a tomb world and that in fact it is a prison world for a shard of the Void Dragon. The two are vastly different concepts. A tomb world has to have Necrons, for example.

[Teetengee]

Huh, it looks like that isn't nearly as confirmed as I first thought. The void dragon's presence there, the fact that necrons have made intentional forays to mars rather than terra, and the fact that it matches ecologically the common ecology of many tomb worlds all suggest it. However, looking deeper into it suggest it might be more complex. It might even be that the void dragon, having last been active on terra, would make Terra itself the tomb world.

There is a discussion here: http://www.40konline.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=d2b349342e0d258dc83bd93445ad662f&topic=191983.20.

That talks a bit about it, but you are right that it is not confirmed.